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blankseplocked For those saying freighters WOULDN'T ruin the economy. You were wrong
 
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Shidhe
Minmatar
The Babylon5 Consortuim
Posted - 2005.08.04 10:55:00 - [31]
 

By making some trade goods useful (required for running POS) CCP has already gone some way towards putting the economy on a firmer basis. The more interconnections there in a system, the more stable (sometines anyway,,,). Now the freighters seem to be set up to satisfy a large amount of supply and demand of NPC goods, the trade goods part of the economy needs even more of a look at.

Players should be able to make trade goods, and they should be required by players for many more things. Then the collection of materials for production and the distribution will require lots of smaller movements, not just a couple of enormous freighter loads. The key is local distribution.

Why not have coolant etc having to be made, not just bought... If that market is not satisfied, the planets (and, to player effect) the stations services and efficiency decline. Factory owners find their production times up by a factor of three as there is not enough spares for the machinery... Factory owners take measures to secure their supplies...

Why not have some planels making a food surplus - this is bought and moved to planets where there is a food defecit. This is done now, but only as a small sideline - why cant it have a real effect... An Amarr blocade trying to starve a Minmatar world into submission makes the galactic news, and players on both sides move to the system to try to reinforce or lift the seige...

KrogothZero
Caldari
eXceed Inc.
No Holes Barred
Posted - 2005.08.04 11:57:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Yyrkoon


go buy yourself an occator. 32,000m3 of cargo. fast.. manouverable. CHEAP!. you could skim both sides of the market one station at a time and make more isk per minute while the freighter pilot waits 5 minutes to dock.




You really havent flown on of these have you rofl,

fast no its get this slower than a freighter. Without using a mwd it takes about as long as a freighter to get into warp and they cost 150mil for 32km3 isnt cheap ! Due to limited cap your limited to 80au jumps and you cant keep a mwd on for very far with decent skills.

Brolly
Caldari
5ER3NITY INC
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:06:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Brolly on 04/08/2005 12:07:40
Edited by: Brolly on 04/08/2005 12:07:04
Simple solution, reduce the price and profit margin on all NPC goods, or increase price and utterly nerf the profit margin Razz

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:13:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Olivin
Originally by: Kerby Lane
Freighters in empuire are very good for player made economy.


Yes, freighters are very good for the centralized market powered by oligarchy of veteran/power players.

No, freighters are very bad for the diverse and competitive market powered by all types of players.


Olivin



So you want market to be powered by casual noobs ?
I still look at market in Heimatar and see shortages of many T1 goods and total lack of some T2.

I dont care who deliver those goods to me but I dont beleive it will be solo 1 day old noob playing once a week. With freighters it is possible for industrial corporations to move goods around effectively.

Casual players still can get in groups and buy freighter if they need it. I dont see why 10-20 people corp cant do it in medium run.


Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:21:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Yyrkoon

also. the prudent trader places BUY and SELL orders for his desired ammounts in the locations. a lot faster than docking and buying each time.

please engage brain before mouth when flaming


Yeah, but the freighter pilot can do that too - and then offload enough goods to keep price locked out for months at a time.

Does it not strike anyone as slightly perverse that people are suggesting that newer players go trade in low sec space, whilst older, richer players can exploit safe space in their freighters.

The old rich players with the freighters should be in low sec, and only there.

Letting freighters in to 0.5+ was a bad move.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:37:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 04/08/2005 12:38:04
Freighters can't haul goods their owners can't buy Avon. Locking them out of .5+ kills their main purpose which is transporting stuff from office to office. They were not only designed for lowsec cats.


Quanteeri
Salty Seaman
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:44:00 - [37]
 

Some one has a sig somewhere that says something about CCP having given you the tools to get done what you need. This is true. The appearent effects of one freighter in the entire EVE universe is a very poor indicator as to the total effect frieghters, in general, will have on the economy overall.

Just blow the thing up. War Dec and blow it up.

Trade wars are something that CCP has been working to make feasible for quite a while, and now you have a reason.

Summersnow
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:47:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Quanteeri
Just blow the thing up. War Dec and blow it up.


do you honestly think someone who's using a freighter in high sec to **** all the other traders in an area isn't going to be smart enough to do it in a newbi corp to avoid this?

Quanteeri
Salty Seaman
Posted - 2005.08.04 12:56:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Quanteeri on 04/08/2005 13:00:40
Originally by: Summersnow
Originally by: Quanteeri
Just blow the thing up. War Dec and blow it up.


do you honestly think someone who's using a freighter in high sec to **** all the other traders in an area isn't going to be smart enough to do it in a newbi corp to avoid this?


I've seen things that make less sense! Maybe he's really head strong and thinks that he can't be ****ed with. Else hit it with the Kessies.

Hell, I might come help do that, just to say I was part of Eve history. There are endless opportunities Summersnow.

Anyone got a freighter killmail yet?

UglyBugly
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:05:00 - [40]
 

This is beginning to sound more and more of money envy.

I still admit that freighters will increase the traders ability to make money. But to flatten a market faster than a transporter you need obscene amounts of isk. Amounts of isk that less than 1000 accounts have according to Oveur. And if someone has that kind of isk, he could flatten it, freighter or not.

Will the people against the freighters in trade a least admit that?

The amount to be made within a certain NPC good market is more or less the same no matter who buys it or how much - as long as it flattens out regularly. Like many of the popular ones do.
So a popular market won't generate more isk than it did before.

The freighter only makes it possible to cut down the number of trips. Which is an advantage - granted. But freighter pilots trained and earned isk to get there. And wont triple your profit from one day to the next on the items you traded in your transport before - or you must have been doing something wrong before.

What I DO see is the items being unwanted for volume reasons by transport/indy pilots getting a revivival.

Siri Danae
Gallente
Xone Trading Corp.
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:05:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Joop
Adept Smile

After each patch the game changes .. so adept to these changes or quit. Posts like this one solve nothing.

Sorry i dont want to sound like a complete a** but this is simply the way of the game.



Normally I'd agree. However this isn't akin to a barge churning out scordite in one of 1500 random high-sec empire systems and dropping local pyrite prices .1 isk a unit. Its more parallel to guys camping complex spawns, which is something CCP addressed. Its a severely limited resource being exploited by older, richer players which excludes poorer, generally younger players (And in Empire... excluding young players is what 0.0 is for Razz)

In fact, trading is the only carebear alternative to mining and missions that requires any actual thought, and something that in my opinion other players shouldn't be excluded from by barge abuse. And they will be, simply because after the barge buys out the best-priced goods and fills the best orders, there's no money left to be made until reset.

My chief concern is that CCP puts an artificial value on npc trade goods, numbers based on industrial-class volume. If they adjusted for freighter volume, new players couldn't make money off the market, sending them back to mining.

Some folks, alliance types as usual, seem to think the npc trade market is a waste. That's their right, but I don't see how it effects them, except to say that they seem generally opposed to any PvE activity that doesn't include the words 'battleship spawns'. Feel free to say otherwise, I won't take offense.

For those folks who want to carebear in empire, trade runs are a nice alternative, the only real alternative in fact, to mining and mission running, and I don't think its fair for freighter pilots to exclude others from it to this extent. Its one thing for them to have a high-end resource to increase profits, but this is abusive.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:15:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: UglyBugly
This is beginning to sound more and more of money envy.

I still admit that freighters will increase the traders ability to make money. But to flatten a market faster than a transporter you need obscene amounts of isk. Amounts of isk that less than 1000 accounts have according to Oveur. And if someone has that kind of isk, he could flatten it, freighter or not.


Well, as players had those amounts of ISK before freighters were released, and as the market wasn't flattened before frieghters arrived, I would postulate that freighters are a cause.
If it had been possible before freighters it would have been done.

Making 500+ million isk profit in an hour is a strong incentive for people to destroy the market.

UglyBugly
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:34:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: UglyBugly
This is beginning to sound more and more of money envy.

I still admit that freighters will increase the traders ability to make money. But to flatten a market faster than a transporter you need obscene amounts of isk. Amounts of isk that less than 1000 accounts have according to Oveur. And if someone has that kind of isk, he could flatten it, freighter or not.


Well, as players had those amounts of ISK before freighters were released, and as the market wasn't flattened before frieghters arrived, I would postulate that freighters are a cause.
If it had been possible before freighters it would have been done


I know of several very profitable markets that flatten during the day. So that postulate is downright wrong. It IS possible and it IS being done. Day after day. The market can't be that good if it isn't getting floored. And should it not be floored but flattened a bit, well then it apparently wasn't profitable enough for the ones feeling left out now.

And as far as I know freighters can't buy you anything. You gotta have the isk. So if the isk isn't there as you postulate it hasn't been, then a freighter won't change a bit.

And lets say that close to 1000 accounts has over a billion isk. Thats not very many, once we weed out the ones that are corp wallets and and the ones that are not traders and the ones that can afford a freighter and still have trading isk.
That leaves us with a select few that can floor a market faster than a transport trader. And thats even assuming that a billion is enough to floor the market, which I would venture it is not in many cases. If he is to do it with a freighter he still gotta have the isk.

And apparently someone DID have the isk to do it, if we are to believe the OP?

And the market can't be destroyed. The price movements won't change, so the only thing that can change is the number of players on certain goods. Or perhaps even increase buy order competition? Imagine that...



Kardose Plathian
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:39:00 - [44]
 


I think this will unintentially cause a nice RL conflict in the world of Eve. That is the rich getting richer while the rest of us struggle to make enough to buy a BS. Freighters are going to make great targets that will be a costly loss.

On the flip side of a coin, although buying everything might sound like a good idea, when comparing to a RL market, availability is also a key factor with customer loyality. As such maybe stations should limit maximum purchases of up to 50% of the listed items in a given time frame. Maybe this would make it too risky and too much shag and hassle placing the emphasis more on hanger to hanger transport then mass purchasing.

Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:43:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Avon
Making 500+ million isk profit in an hour is a strong incentive for people to destroy the market.

Heh, well put.

I know people have been asking for the NPC market to take a backburner to the PC one, well imagine if we were there now with a primarily player-based economy and someone did this. Oops!

Not sure how one would fix this really. Limiting the types of cargo the thing can carry doesn't make much sense... *thinks*

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2005.08.04 13:44:00 - [46]
 

The most profitable trade routes wont get eaten up becuase they involve runs through low sec, somthing im sure alot of freighter pilot.

People *****ing about frieghters dont seem to get it. ANYONE with isk can buy up the entire supply of npc goods at that price immediatly and hold onto it. The only difference between an indy pilot and a freighter pilot is it MIGHT take the frieghter pilot a little less time to transport all the goods to its destination but thats about it.

DrunkenOne
Unknown Soldiers
B O R G
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:03:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: DrunkenOne on 04/08/2005 14:07:11
Do freighters have insurance? And how much is it/whats the payout?

I wonder if like 6-10 gankas with 6 heat sink IIs 2 1600 plates and 2-3 target painters apiece (only need 1 scrambler) could kill the freighter in high sec before dying to concord Smile.

Hmm if anyone wants to try this send me an email Very Happy

Gaiam
Gallente
Supernova Security Systems
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:29:00 - [48]
 

sounds like a good excuse for a war to me. or hire a merc corps to blow it up.

Olivin
Gallente
Aquarium
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:33:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Kerby Lane
Originally by: Olivin
Originally by: Kerby Lane
Freighters in empuire are very good for player made economy.


Yes, freighters are very good for the centralized market powered by oligarchy of veteran/power players.

No, freighters are very bad for the diverse and competitive market powered by all types of players.

Olivin



So you want market to be powered by casual noobs ?



No. I want market, not centralize distribution centre controlled by handful of old players. And what is casual noobs have to do with it?


Originally by: Kerby Lane

I still look at market in Heimatar and see shortages of many T1 goods and total lack of some T2.



Please, send thank you letter to CCP and their brilliant idea of t2 lottery and don't forget to ask them to further improve loot tables and drop more t1 loot.

Originally by: Kerby Lane

I dont care who deliver those goods to me but I dont beleive it will be solo 1 day old noob playing once a week. With freighters it is possible for industrial corporations to move goods around effectively.



You don't need freighter capacity to serve ANY regional market with gear. So stop trying to find excuses for the freighters in secure Empire. It's wrong! They suppose to serve capital ships ( dreads) and outposts construction logistics . Both are only available below 0.5. So do freighters should be.

Originally by: Kerby Lane

Casual players still can get in groups and buy freighter if they need it. I dont see why 10-20 people corp cant do it in medium run.



If they can get into groups then there are no more casual than you. Besides, how do you want 10-20 noobs with one freighter complete in secure Empire against me solo in said freighter? I will eat you for breakfast with your divided profits and disorganisation. Then I will pay one run to make sure that your freighter and the corp pwnd and never bother me again. Please, get real before suggesting something utterly useless. On another hand, 0.4 and below this could be completely different story.

Olivin

Olivin
Gallente
Aquarium
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:38:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Olivin on 04/08/2005 14:39:29
Originally by: Wild Rho
People *****ing about frieghters dont seem to get it. ANYONE with isk can buy up the entire supply of npc goods at that price immediatly and hold onto it. The only difference between an indy pilot and a freighter pilot is it MIGHT take the frieghter pilot a little less time to transport all the goods to its destination but thats about it.


Lol @ you. The difference between an indy and a freighter is that freighter can transport 50 times more than best fitted indy, without a speed penalty and in total safety, assuming BM's and secure space.

Olivin

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:50:00 - [51]
 

And?

Your assuming that the supply at the indies location will actually fill a freighter, which it doesn't. Plus an indy pilot can still buy up just as much of the supplies as the freighter pilot.

BP Merchant
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:53:00 - [52]
 

Didn't the OP mention Maut? Thats only 0.2 so why not shoot it up?

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 14:58:00 - [53]
 

Quote:
You don't need freighter capacity to serve ANY regional market with gear. So stop trying to find excuses for the freighters in secure Empire. It's wrong! They suppose to serve capital ships ( dreads) and outposts construction logistics . Both are only available below 0.5. So do freighters should be.



How about ships ?
Repackaged cruiser = 10000m3
Repackaged BS = 50000m3

Please bring me some to my local market without freighter. T2 lottery has nothing to do with it at all and with route changes large T2 producers will need to establish more than one point of sale.

I dont thing whole empire logistics ( both goods and minersl) should be nerfed because
you are not satisfied with NPC markets. Better nerf the NPC as should not be so profitable in high sec anyway.

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:00:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Kerby Lane on 04/08/2005 15:28:20
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 04/08/2005 14:07:11
Do freighters have insurance? And how much is it/whats the payout?

I wonder if like 6-10 gankas with 6 heat sink IIs 2 1600 plates and 2-3 target painters apiece (only need 1 scrambler) could kill the freighter in high sec before dying to concord Smile.

Hmm if anyone wants to try this send me an email Very Happy


<-----
Sign me in
Its not too expensive to try anyway


BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:03:00 - [55]
 

I am all for the guy making a few bucks, but freighter should be more expensive to operate.

I like the Jump drive idea. Its enough of a pain to use to warrent that profit at that point, allmost.

Olivin
Gallente
Aquarium
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:12:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Kerby Lane
Quote:
You don't need freighter capacity to serve ANY regional market with gear. So stop trying to find excuses for the freighters in secure Empire. It's wrong! They suppose to serve capital ships ( dreads) and outposts construction logistics . Both are only available below 0.5. So do freighters should be.



How about ships ?
Repackaged cruiser = 10000m3
Repackaged BS = 50000m3

Please bring me some to my local market without freighter. T2 lottery has nothing to do with it at all and with route changes large T2 producers will need to establish more than one point of sale.


Give me a break! Regional markets should be based on local industrial and trading hubs, not on imported ships/goods from Yulai. BTW, thanks for another nail against freighters in Empire.

Originally by: Kerby Lane
I dont thing whole empire logistics ( both goods and minersl) should be nerfed because
you are not satisfied with NPC markets. Better nerf the NPC as should not be so profitable in high sec anyway.


Empire logistics was just fine before freighters. Freighters needed to develop and improve 0.0. There is nothing to improve in Empire high space.

Olivin

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:16:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: sonofollo
all i can say is we need more of it - if volumes rise and the amount of trades - CCP might actually look at expanding improving adding new features etc to the NPC trade goods aspect of the game. Ive called for this for a long time - well u might have to find other routes get into low sec. Do manufacturing missions for level 3-4 agents

If more players get into NPC trading CCP might look at making additions to it making the economy more dynamic - this fellow is going to be selling small amounts for quite some tiem. Or profit margins will drop to nothing - as long as the volumes sky rocket let him go at it - we need more of it.

If you want more aspects to NPC trading you gotta boost voulmes - its the only way the devs will look at a aspect of the game.


I would support the current situation if it meant more trading content. It was one thing that Elite was very good at, and unfortunately lacking in EvE. Dynamic NPC markets tied to storyline events would be awesome (e.g. tobacco demand increases due to outbreak of conflict...)

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:27:00 - [58]
 

I'll tell you of the single most profitable run in Eve, with a 300% profit, and nearly unlimited volume, and no seeding

Trit in Pator/Yulai/Jita is selling for 3 isk/unit.

Trit six jumps away, any direction, is selling for 1 isk a unit.

Imagine that.

Fix the bloody whatever roes. Whipe them from the system for all I care. All they do in Eve is drive inflation. We have real pressing need for bulk cargo shipping in Empire, far more than we have a need for shipping of Doohickies of Uselessness.

Harry Voyager

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:32:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Harry Voyager on 04/08/2005 15:32:03
Originally by: Jacque Custeau

I would support the current situation if it meant more trading content. It was one thing that Elite was very good at, and unfortunately lacking in EvE. Dynamic NPC markets tied to storyline events would be awesome (e.g. tobacco demand increases due to outbreak of conflict...)


We have dynamic markets!

Does noone remember the Great Northern War, when Zydrine quadruped in price, as the Northerner Zydrine miners killed eachother over ideals?

Does noone remember the Rebirth of Stain, when billions worth of Megacyte suddenly flooded the market, and billions of Tritanium were bought out of season, when Stain rebuilt its battleship fleet to challange Curse' domination of Estoria?

Does noone remember the Monopoly of Fountain, when Fountain's industrialists bought out the entire Cap Charger II BPO set, and started selling them at 10m a pop?

Does noone remember?

Kerby Lane
ZER0.
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.08.04 15:33:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Olivin
Give me a break! Regional markets should be based on local industrial and trading hubs, not on imported ships/goods from Yulai. BTW, thanks for another nail against freighters in Empire.


I just wondering if you trick me or really dont have a clue ?
Try to speak with t2 manufacturers before talking about regional markets and nailing freighters. BTW Yulai is not the hub of T2 equipment and in had never been.






Originally by: Kerby Lane
I dont thing whole empire logistics ( both goods and minersl) should be nerfed because
you are not satisfied with NPC markets. Better nerf the NPC as should not be so profitable in high sec anyway.


Empire logistics was just fine before freighters. Freighters needed to develop and improve 0.0. There is nothing to improve in Empire high space.

Olivin


Are you sure you mean logistics and not NPC trading ?


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