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Trevize dk
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:09:00 - [1]
 

Ive been playing this game for almost two years now and I must admit Im an EVE-oholic. EVE may change various things or game play, but I always stay put. I think we all could talk forever of all the wonderful things this game has given us, but I will try to shed some light on another aspect of the game. An aspect that is often forgotten by the long time players and unfortunately by CCP as well. I'm talking about newcomers or n00bs (hate that word).

A newcomer that decide to play the game today, will have a little or no chance of ever catching up to those who started playing in the beginning. Im fully aware that this fact cannot be changed. However the game could help a little by allowing an accelerated learning rate for the first month or two. Or the characters could be spawned with more skills. As it is right now, the learning curve is just to steep imo. This will undeniable defer many from given the game a fair chance.

Some players may state: Why should I care about this? Well the only way EVE can survive in the long run is to get a constant supply of new players. CCP owns this game and CCP as a business needs to grow to survive. Naturally our friends up in Iceland are aware of this fact, but somehow CCP seems to fail in this aspect of helping newcomers to the game.

The last patches released have basically all been about content, in one way or another. New systems, new ships and new skills. All this combined with some of the nerfs weve seen makes it very hard to start in this game. It take much longer time before you can do various things in the game compared with what it was like when I started. Granted, there are more learning skills than previously but in order to get those you need money. And to get money you need ships etc. etc. etc.

So. Here we have it. A stalemate between CCP pleasing the veteran players, or doing something for newcomers (I know its not quite that black and white). We as members of corps and perhaps alliances should also have an interest in this. How else should we get new players in the long run.

Anybody have any ideas or input on this matter? I feel it to be very important.


Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:14:00 - [2]
 

I'd defnately go for new character starting with more skills.
Not only would it help new characters get started, it could also be done in such a way to reinforce racial traits.

Also, I would like to see the tutorials get some racial bias - I tried it recently and was surprised how much better it is now, but it still felt hollow. It needs some atmosphere.

Mr Popov
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:17:00 - [3]
 

Best thing for newcomers is better advertising, and better implementation for EVE University corp. Since EVE-U has offices in every starting station, the tutorial agent should suggest the newcomer to join that corp, or an automated message from the agent to EVE-U directors should be sent notifying them of a potential newcomer, or something like that.

I would have no problem if EVE-U got preferrential treatment over every other corp in that regard.

To answer your question, I would have no problem if newcomers got a few extra skills upon birth, mabye allow one more step in the character creation process allowing for more specialization in your field.

jbob2000
Gallente
Degenerate...
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:18:00 - [4]
 

I must agree with starting with more skills. As it stands right now, a new player pretty much can't play for the first week with the amount of skills needed to train. Skills for Shield Boosters, Cap Rechargers/Relays, Armor Repairers, Afterburners, and Learning skills.

It would be nice for new players to start with the ability to use some essential modules such as power diagnostics, cap rechargers, etc. when they first start. If not that, then only a few levels off.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:21:00 - [5]
 

Players starting out now get civilian modules that can help them out when they have little or no skills.

They also get 5,000isk to start out with instead of the 1,000 most of us recieved, there's several more new tutorials, and everyone recieves a Damage Control I.

New players have a wealth of information and help available, the people who can't cut it and who arent of the correct mentality to survive in eve get weeded out pretty fast.


Jezala
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:24:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Jezala on 03/08/2005 18:25:16
Originally by: Avon
I'd defnately go for new character starting with more skills.
Not only would it help new characters get started, it could also be done in such a way to reinforce racial traits.

Also, I would like to see the tutorials get some racial bias - I tried it recently and was surprised how much better it is now, but it still felt hollow. It needs some atmosphere.


Personally, I'd rather not see new players getting locked into racial traits just because they chose a race based on a 1-2 paragraph description + a colorful picture during character creation. I'd prefer it if new players were given an oppertunity to get a boost to their choosen occupational skills sometime after character creation, say 3-4 weeks afterwards. This could be done via a special storyline mission.

DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:27:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: DJTheBaron on 03/08/2005 18:28:04
how about revieving lv1 implants and nessary skills from your tutorial agents

i dont make a lot of isk in eve as its boring and repetitive to do so, therefore i cant afford +3 implants to buy an alt and have ot battle ready in reasonable time so tempary sp bonus to noobs wud be nice

that and my spanking new uber pc cant run 2x eve when my 3yr old one can...

SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:31:00 - [8]
 

how about starting them out with all the basic learning skills trained and 1 of the advanced learnings @ lvl 1? that would cut down on a whole month of training that would normally have to be done and is a huge "downtime" and "barrier" to the newbie.

Natasha Kerensky
The Company
The Dominion Empire
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:31:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Verone

New players have a wealth of information and help available, the people who can't cut it and who arent of the correct mentality to survive in eve get weeded out pretty fast.




This is true, EVE is not for everyone, however, as stated above, CCP is a buisness. They need to constantly attract new players so that the company can grow and thrive. The steep learning curve in EVE is definately a detterent to that.

Why do you think WOW is so popular? Its a real simple game that requires less than 10 minutes to grasp the concept of.

Ive been playing EVE for a year and a half now and theres still a ton of things i dont know about the game.

Simply put, more content for newbies would benefit the game for everyone.

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:42:00 - [10]
 

One of the things flaunted about the EVE skill system was the diminishing returns. A vet with a skill trained to level 5 was only 5% better than a newer person at level 4.

As the game developed this has been thrown out of the window due to the requirements for advanced ships/mods.

Mechanic 4 means you fly a frig where mechanic 5 is the prerequisite for an assault frig (for example). This means that newer players have hurdles to meet before they are in the running again.

One thing is for sure, the game has evolved and the skills a new person gets should do too.

I'd be in favour of
- Accelerated learning for new characters for a period of time

or
- More skills on character creation (a LOT more skills) - say 1/2 SP'ish

Jah Nayor
Caldari
Murder of Crows
E N I G M A
Posted - 2005.08.03 18:46:00 - [11]
 

As someone fairly new, I've got to say that I don't find anything wrong with the system as is. Remember, the skills at lower levels train quicker than they do at higher levels. I've been in game a little more than a month and in my first week I joined a corp belonging to some RL friends and was going to war with them around my first week mark.

I am addicted to this game and I think the struggle in the beginning is what hooks most people. You put so much of yourself into developing this character. It wouldn't be that way if things were easier in the beginning. Some players might quit if after the introductory easy phase it began to get tougher to train skills.

Basically, it ain't broke, so don't fix it.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2005.08.03 19:35:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 03/08/2005 19:43:14
My first impression of this game for the first 14-days is,

1. Hard life.
2. Got gate ganked.
3. Got belt ganked.
4. Got tricked to fire in high sec. and got Concordokken.
5. Met some nice ppl and learnt things slowly.

Still, if a newb were to see more of 1-4 than 5, they will probably run away and never to come near Eve anymore. I myself, got annoyed and left for a while because, I probably was unlucky enough to meet scums frequently for unknown reasons... ;|

Still CCP still also try to market this game to other countries, there are many English speak countries in Asia and Asia Pacific, with good internet connections as well. Probably pricing will be a factor in those areas. Then again, it is all about mass, mass, mass, me thinks.

Also, perhaps new users should be thought how to train their skills (in tutorials) because not all skills need to be trained to level 5. I think it is most of the useful skills that one normally uses should go to lvl 4 and if there are any specific specialisation, then train to lvl 5. If one aims for lvl 5 skills all the time, the the game will be unplayable for some time because of the character will be a little imbalanced or crippled in functionality. In other words, I think for a newb to several months old characters, the idea is to have majority of the skills to be at lvl 3 and lvl 4 (for functional purposes) before training them for lvl 5. Otherwise, one will be spending 1 year either learning how to tank, mine, etc. which IMHO will be very boring.

Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
Posted - 2005.08.03 19:47:00 - [13]
 

Im a newb, i even look like an exclamation mark. Just like to mention a few things. Verone, that damage control... heh well the tutorial forces you to refine it.Laughing

But ive often wondered how your supposed to catch up to an older player. Frankly im at a loss. Thus far the only way it seems I could take on an older player is to have a fleet of players with me. Even starting with more skills isnt enough since you will still be WAAAY behind older players... now being behind old players is typical since theyve been playing much longer but the main issue is that you will ALWAYS be behind them unless they take a very long vacation.

Heres an idea to give newbs a better edge. The tutorial says that Spaceship Command is a suggested skill to raise. Why not scratch that and have the tutorial talk about learning skills instead? A whole section about attributes and learning skills as a matter of fact...

Bozse
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2005.08.03 19:52:00 - [14]
 

Best way i can think of to close the gap a bit is to give all the first char on a new account (same goes if u recycle all chars on the account, hence first char while all slots are empty) learning lvl 4 or even 5 and the specific to lvl 4.

This way u give new players better starting atributes and if they want to train advanced they still need to train lvl 5 so they have not gotten to much for "free"

And ofc this would only be avalible to real accounts to prevent explploiting with trial accounts (info given to trial players that this is the case and when trial is uppgraded they will recive the additional skills)

And have some kind of message that explains it when they create there char that this will be given so they are aware of it.

Just a random thought from a realy tired mind atm, have no idea if it's good or bad u be the juge.

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2005.08.03 19:54:00 - [15]
 

I dont think it would do any harm to increase starting sp to around 500-1 million with perhaps lvl 4 learning skills already done. Eve has a unique time based system where new players cannot catch up ever to older ones (though lvl 1-4 progression is relatively fast). Increasing the starting skill points wont hurt the current characters much imo. There would need to be some clause like full accounts only get this perhaps.



Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:00:00 - [16]
 

New players have plenty of new things to help them out that I didn't have when I first started back when the game came out. Implants, advanced learning skills...

I bet if someone did the math they'd find that if someone started out now, they'd be further along than those of us who'd started 2+ years ago.

And frankly, most of these people with over 20 million skillpoints have them in more than one race's ships, and more than one type of weapon, etc. If a new player focused on becoming skilled at say Minmatar frigates, they'd not only have a blast, but they'd easily be able to take on older players in combat (if combat is where they want to go...).

Skill points != skill.

Talthrus
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:01:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Talthrus on 03/08/2005 20:01:25
I have noticed newer players lacking the skills for basic modules for quite some time. In all honesty, only truly dedicated players will get a good glimpse of what EVE is like in a 2 week trial period.

After reading suggestions in this thread, I thought of an idea that could potentially help new players get a little jump start into the game. Instead of starting with more skills, why not allow players to learn basic skills through tutorial missions?

After completing their basic tutorials, advanced tutorials (or ones in addition to the basic) can be completed by the new players. These tutorials will instantly learn a given skill for the player. For example, one of these tutorials could be about shield boosting. As the tutorial starts, the agent gives a background on the component and trains up the needed skills to level 1. This way, the player both learns how to use a valuable component, while at the same time doesn't have to wander around aimlessly in an attempt to locate the skill books.

We don't need new players starting out with high levels, but allowing them to work up a few basic skills by completing tutorial missions could be beneficial to EVE. This would allow newer players to get a quicker start into EVE, just with a few extra skills and the knowledge of how to use them.

As time continues in EVE, the new player to vet gap will continue to grow larger and larger. I can't foresee this becoming a huge problem unless the flow of new players is suddenly cut off. If all of the players' skill points in EVE were graphed, I'm almost positive you are going to have a fairly even amount of players at every million SP milestone. Perhaps when this gap becomes too great new systems will be needed, but I as I said earlier, I can't foresee this becoming a huge problem.

Derron Bel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:04:00 - [18]
 

Advanced learning skills are a joke as far as new players are concerned. They cost too muh and getting learning skills to level 5 takes too long.

Siri Danae
Gallente
Xone Trading Corp.
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:04:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
New players have plenty of new things to help them out that I didn't have when I first started back when the game came out. Implants, advanced learning skills...

I bet if someone did the math they'd find that if someone started out now, they'd be further along than those of us who'd started 2+ years ago.

And frankly, most of these people with over 20 million skillpoints have them in more than one race's ships, and more than one type of weapon, etc. If a new player focused on becoming skilled at say Minmatar frigates, they'd not only have a blast, but they'd easily be able to take on older players in combat (if combat is where they want to go...).

Skill points != skill.



I mainly agree, except then you also need the skills to buy the ships. You could, if you crammed for it, fly an interceptor in 3-4 months with some aptitude. But the pilot wouldn't be able to afford it. The best players are the ones with diversity in their abilities, but what you're suggesting is an extremely limiting solution.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:07:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 03/08/2005 20:09:34
Actually I just started a new character on my recently bought 2nd account and he's doing just fine.

If he would've started with more skills or whatever other startup help you may think of the game would actually be pretty damn boring on that account.

People take off into a much more mature universe these days. This alone yields so many advantages for them it's not even funny anymore. There are things you can do as a newb that would've made me wet my pants back when I started.

Edit: Oh and I just picked up this:

Quote:
You could, if you crammed for it, fly an interceptor in 3-4 months with some aptitude. But the pilot wouldn't be able to afford it.


My second char is about 3 weeks old and he could easily afford an interceptor right now. By the time he has the skills to fly them he will most likely have more than double or triple the required cash. Notice that I didn't give the char a single isk from my main and he hasn't done anything a newb couldn't do just as good (mainly NPC trades).


Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Siri Danae
I mainly agree, except then you also need the skills to buy the ships. You could, if you crammed for it, fly an interceptor in 3-4 months with some aptitude. But the pilot wouldn't be able to afford it. The best players are the ones with diversity in their abilities, but what you're suggesting is an extremely limiting solution.

Well, money's the real limiter in this game, really. And it was only a suggestion, a new player who starts to train all four empires worth of frigate skills is probably not going down the best path... :) Diversity is good, but if you're new it's probably best to take it slow and learn the game.

Besides, I know some people who are deadly with a rifter or kestrel. Neither of which takes very long to board and fly. Anyway, just an example. :)

Ardor
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
A.R.K.
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:10:00 - [22]
 

Most of us know how long it takes to train the battleship skill (rank 8) to level 5. During that time a new player can train a lot of other very important basic skills. Then we have such wonderfull skills like the turret specialization skills which also take some time without giving a godlike boost to damage.

A new player will catch up with effectivity but never with the number of skillpoints. As older you are as harder it becomes to keep an advantage compared to the player who started after you. As younger you are as faster your effectivity grows (to train a skill to level 5 takes 5 times longer than to train the same skill from 0 to level 4). This system is not really a disadvantage for the new player.


A lot of players from 2003 start to train Dreadnought skills (if they can afford to fly such a beast).
- advanced spaceship command (rank 5)
- capital ships (rank 14)
- dreadnought (rank 12)
- capital repair system (rank 8)
- jump drive operation (rank 5)
- jumpdrive calibration (rank 9)
- jump fuel conservation (rank 8)
- capital turret (rank 7)

I have not done the math but I suppose it will need some time to train this skills. I suppose during this time a new player who starts today can become an excellent battleship pilot.

If the player from 2003 does not train Dreadnought skills he might train other races guns, ships etc which gives them more versatility but not more dmg/power.

Ambrose
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:12:00 - [23]
 

Change it so that Advanced learning skills only require the regular learning skills to level 4, that would make a lot of happy newbies.

Dizzident
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:26:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Verone
Players starting out now get civilian modules that can help them out when they have little or no skills.

They also get 5,000isk to start out with instead of the 1,000 most of us recieved, there's several more new tutorials, and everyone recieves a Damage Control I.




Sorry, but I really had to laugh at this...you aren't serious are you? OH WOW 5000 ISK INSTEAD OF 1000!

Don't make me Laughing

Everybody talks about 'not being able to cut it'. This is a game ffs. If you want to see if you can cut it, join the Navy Seals.

Talthrus
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:26:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ambrose
Change it so that Advanced learning skills only require the regular learning skills to level 4, that would make a lot of happy newbies.


That would also anger a large portion of those who have advanced skills already (which is almost everyone who has played the game for a few months).

X'Alor
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:32:00 - [26]
 

the newer players are already ahead of us come same time as us.

yes they may be two years behind us but if they play for two years with all the advanced learning skills and implants that were not available to us are available to the newer players and if they take advantage of them and train all the learning skills will be ahead of us come the 2 year point of their char.

we didn't have those options for almost a year into the game, you may have those options right from the start.

If you so elect to use them tools and skills.

You will always be two years behind and you always should be. but come that same two year point in your characters life, it will be ahead of where i am/was because you could have trained advanced learning right at start no matter how long it takes.

Newbs shouldn't expect to even be close to us until they have trained two years as well.

And they can't really start all new chars off with more money as people will just create multiple accounts and trade it to their main and delete it and make a new one a trade it and delete it and train a new one and trade it etc etc etc.

Even though the biggest help they could do is possibly starting each new account off with an extra mill worth of ISK but only make it available to one account one character in that account only once.

A cool million ISK for a newb to buy himself a good bunch of needed starter skills, a decent ship to get rolling along would be the biggest help IMO but could be and would be to easily exploited if it was available to each and every made char.

It would have to be a regulated one time thing per account but I'm sure people would sign up new accounts for the first free trial and then delete the account before trial expires.

Maybe that cool million bonus could be set to the main character of the account once the free trial is over and commitment to first month paid is submitted.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dizzident
Originally by: Verone
Players starting out now get civilian modules that can help them out when they have little or no skills.

They also get 5,000isk to start out with instead of the 1,000 most of us recieved, there's several more new tutorials, and everyone recieves a Damage Control I.




Sorry, but I really had to laugh at this...you aren't serious are you? OH WOW 5000 ISK INSTEAD OF 1000!

Don't make me Laughing

Everybody talks about 'not being able to cut it'. This is a game ffs. If you want to see if you can cut it, join the Navy Seals.


Yeah i'm serious. People need to learn how to survive, you're given the Basic tools and information when you start, and you build from there. Everyone in this game starts with an equal chance of becoming something special. People who now run megacorps, such as CYVOK, and infamous pirates like Daakkon, and Zarquon Beeblebrox all started in the same situation as you, and every other player.

Eve is an investment of time, it's a long term game that takes a long time for you to rise to the top of your chosen profession. Games like WoW are seeing people become bored of playing because they can reach whatever level is considered uber in a few days.

If that was the case in eve, the game would fall apart. Most of the players you see who join eve and then have trouble are more used to playing FPS games, and games like WoW where power levelling is available.

Here it isn't. If you don't like the way eve works, leave, it's that simple. It's worked impeccably in concept for the last two years and CCP obviously know how to keep it well structured.

The only thing i'd suggest is upping the trial period from 14 days to 30, so that new players can get more of a foothold before deciding whether or not to pay for a sub.



Talthrus
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:36:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: X'Alor
the newer players are already ahead of us come same time as us.

yes they may be two years behind us but if they play for two years with all the advanced learning skills and implants that were not available to us are available to the newer players and if they take advantage of them and train all the learning skills will be ahead of us come the 2 year point of their char.

we didn't have those options for almost a year into the game, you may have those options right from the start.

If you so elect to use them tools and skills.

You will always be two years behind and you always should be. but come that same two year point in your characters life, it will be ahead of where i am/was because you could have trained advanced learning right at start no matter how long it takes.

Newbs shouldn't expect to even be close to us until they have trained two years as well.

And they can't really start all new chars off with more money as people will just create multiple accounts and trade it to their main and delete it and make a new one a trade it and delete it and train a new one and trade it etc etc etc.

Even though the biggest help they could do is possibly starting each new account off with an extra mill worth of ISK but only make it available to one account one character in that account only once.

A cool million ISK for a newb to buy himself a good bunch of needed starter skills, a decent ship to get rolling along would be the biggest help IMO but could be and would be to easily exploited if it was available to each and every made char.

It would have to be a regulated one time thing per account but I'm sure people would sign up new accounts for the first free trial and then delete the account before trial expires.

Maybe that cool million bonus could be set to the main character of the account once the free trial is over and commitment to first month paid is submitted.



I can see where you are coming from with the 1 million ISK idea, but I can't see it being in tune with EVE's current workings. Although you could make it so every new subscription gets 1 million ISK, most people would see this as somewhat of a desperation by the developers to lure in new players by promising ISK. It's a good idea on paper, but teaching the new players how to fish instead of giving them the fish is going to be much more beneficial in the long run.

X'Alor
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:37:00 - [29]
 

heck, give them a 5 mill bonus come first paid month subscription as a welcome to eve gift.

5 mill would be enough for them to get all needed skills and even loose a couple frigs and or buy a couple bpo's and let them get into whatever they want.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.08.03 20:39:00 - [30]
 

Personally I don't think you give CCP the credit they deserve for this. Comparing how it was for new players two years ago to how it is now you'll see a huge difference.

Two years ago:
- no guide or manual (official manual with box set became outdated before game came out)
- tutorials were broken and very short if you did get it to run
- there were no functional agents
- many skills were not properly seeded in the market
- buying a new frig or cruiser sometimes meant 30 jump round trips through lowsec and no instas
- no insurance or clones
- no "warning" messages for doing dumb things
- little to no protection in 1.0
- general market bugs and balance issues that made the game unplayable
- few GMs, even fewer volunteers, fewer tools to support them
- you started with 0.00 isk

Today:
- Player guide
- Official help channel with lots of volunteers / GMs
- new updated tutorial with voice (works too)
- tutorial agents, that lead you to better agents with implant and standing rewards
- all skills easily available
- market works and is fairly unexploitable
- lots of player supply, so you're not paying 700k for a tristan and 14.8mil for a thorax!
- you start with some isk
- more civilian mods which help a lot
- insurance and cloning support
- agents (which means mining is not mandatory)
- quick help if you need it
- rookie complexes
- upcoming COSMOS constellations in rookie areas
- powerful concord

I mean, there is nothing to complain about. Whether a person continues to play eve after 14 days is more or less depending on how eve presents itself, how good the community is and how open-ended the game feels, not how quickly they can grind from the start. The learning curve is steep, but the same can be said for any game this complicated. If it was made any easier, I don't know how much of a sense of accomplishment people will feel when they get into the next biggest ship. Cause trust me, CCP isn't churning out ships faster than you can train for them.


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