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blankseplocked Best Combat Cruiser? Maller, Thorax, Moa, Or?
 
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Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2003.07.19 02:00:00 - [1]
 

Which in your opinion is the best cruiser for combat. When I say combat I mean 50% PvP and 50% PvE.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2003.07.19 02:07:00 - [2]
 


This is one of the beauties of EVE. With some exceptions, the ships are remarkably balanced. And you will know this when posters come with different opinions and swear by the ship of their own choosing.

You forgot to mention the fourth level 3 cruiser in the game, which is the Rupture.

From ship sales, it used to be Moa number 1, closely followed by the Maller, but the Thorax is quickly gaining on both. The Rupture does not seem to have the same level of popularity, though the Stabber is one of the more popular cruisers out there.


Edited by: Slithereen on 19/07/2003 02:09:32

Letifer Deus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.19 05:24:00 - [3]
 

I love my Maller, i love the extra powergrid and the 6 low slots. But if I had good drone skills I'd get a thorax, and If I had cruise missle skill I might even get a MOA. Rupture isnt up to par in my opinion, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Rath Amon
Amarr
Fire Mandrill
Posted - 2003.07.19 08:39:00 - [4]
 

I have always been a loyal Amarr citizen and am rightfully proud of our starships. I feel that the Maller is the most powerful cruiser in most situations but I must admit that the Thorax is an excellent ship (and the best-looking cruiser by far).

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2003.07.19 10:34:00 - [5]
 

Moa with cruise/torps will seriously f*ck up a Thorax and drones.

ga'ia
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.19 11:55:00 - [6]
 

Joshua Calvert, not if the thorax are not standing still nor going straight forward to the moa, they can be avoided for some time cuz of there low agility :)

Cochise
20th Legion
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2003.07.19 12:13:00 - [7]
 

I agree that the more missles the btr. I have a Thorax and lots of drone control but I also have a Caracle. 2 totaly different types of combat is required for these 2. I find also that the Caracle equiped with 2- 250mm hybrids is a good way to wax some frigs while turning the Cruise missles on the Cruisers.

So Its a hard choice, My Vote is for the Ship that will give you the most Missles and Drones and that is the Caracle or the Rupture if you want shields to go with it that is.

Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2003.07.19 15:42:00 - [8]
 

Well with drones I hear that smartbombs take them out easily. How true is this? If thats the case a well equipped Moa/Maller could easilly take down a Thorax.

Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2003.07.19 15:47:00 - [9]
 

I'm comparing the Main cruiser stats... Maller, Thorax, Moa, Rupture and the Rupture looks like a good ship.

Vacuole
Gallente
Knights of Shadows
Posted - 2003.07.19 16:04:00 - [10]
 

Well, wasp 1 heavy drones have 350 total HP..

a small martbomb does.. what is it? .. 44 damage?

So that's like 8 smartbomb blasts from a small smartbomb.. or 3-4 from a medium.

All the while, the swarm of wasps are eating-away at the hull at ~11HP every 2 seconds, per wasp drone.

8 drones = 88 HP every 2 seconds.

Drones then return, get back into the bay, and you can repair them.


Microbe
Gallente
Shattered Star Confederation
Posted - 2003.07.19 16:34:00 - [11]
 

>>>Moa with cruise/torps will seriously f*ck up a Thorax and drones.<<<

You speak as though that is a fact, and that you are happy with the two ships balance. :P


Arathmon
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2003.07.20 00:18:00 - [12]
 

If you can use heavy drones, the Thorax is awesome. If you can use cruise missiles/torpedoes, the Moa is l33t. If you can stand the ugliness of the Maller, you can rightfully say you pwn. If you can deal with the nerfs dealt to the projectile weapons class, enjoy your Rupture. Seriously... there is no 'best' ship, it all comes down to skills and experience.

Ph0enix
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Posted - 2003.07.21 22:23:00 - [13]
 

I love my Thorax, since i am a heavy drone user (spent weeks training Heavy Drone Operations lvl 5) and so its the only real choice for me. Plus it simply looks the coolest, has 5 turret slots and 5 low slots (packed with tracking enhancers so i can hit something) and you get bonus to hybrid dmg.
Heavy drones can be deadly if used right, and by carrying 8 Wasps i don't need to mount smaller guns to deal with fast frigates or ships that get to close.

Stonyvision
Amarr
Critical-Dissent
Posted - 2003.07.22 11:35:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Stonyvision on 22/07/2003 11:35:09
Every ship has it's "moments" wich makes this game so nice.
If i approach a thorax with maller and fire multiple heavy (modulated) beams that thorax will go down fast.

If the thorax owner is prepared to fight he'll launch his drones and the wasps will most likely turn an end to the maller before the thorax is down.

Maller seems to be more like a rush in and kill ship while the thorax seems to be great to defend some spot.

This is all affected by skills of course.
I'm quite sure that any of the 4 top end (even the cheaper ones) can win a fight as longh you have the right skills and tactics.

There's a lot bad things about eve still but ship balancing is not one of them i'd say.

Just go and buy the ship you like most/fits your combat tactics most.

Ph0enix
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Posted - 2003.07.23 21:51:00 - [15]
 

hell, a damn Rifter can take down a Maller if the Minmatar ships pilot is skilled enough. And trust me, i've seen it be done. Cruisers are great and all, but by owning one you can't be assured that you'll win in a fight. Player skill is SO much more important than the ship you fly.

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.07.24 02:25:00 - [16]
 

Well, PvP and NPC is VERY different.

For NPC, there are only 2 choices: Maller or Moa. If you're one of those who camp at the same belt, not jumping to other belts all the time, then a Thorax may be useful too.

For PvP, there are 3 or 4 choices: Maller, Blackbird or Caracal. And then the Thorax too if you're in the "defending/camping" fleet.

I shouldn't need to explain, but:
NPC: Moa can deal lots of damage and have the best defence(=shields). Maller can deal MOST damage, and has a good defence...

PvP: Blackbird for EW... Caracal, Maller and Thorax for huge damage...

No need to say that a Thorax is almost useless without about 8 heavy drones, and a Caracal is completely useless without 5 cruise-missiles/torpedos

Robomonkey
Posted - 2003.07.24 11:07:00 - [17]
 

<<<For NPC, there are only 2 choices: Maller or Moa. If you're one of those who camp at the same belt, not jumping to other belts all the time, then a Thorax may be useful too>>>

<<<No need to say that a Thorax is almost useless without about 8 heavy drones, and a Caracal is completely useless without 5 cruise-missiles/torpedos>>>>

huh?, clearly you've never used a Thorax properly then!!!, I can easily kill 30-50k pirates jumping from belt to belt WITHOUT any drones at all. In fact I spent 2 hours last night doing it, and getting bored because it was too easy.

As for my opinion, if you use Hybreds then the Thorax is a killer ship beause of the damage bonus you get with it, even if the Maller can mount one more gun, the Thorax can still just about match the total damage of a Maller with one less gun, then add drones to that and you've got a killer ship.

Before I get burnt to a crisp, do some quick sums and you'll see with cruiser 4 (+20% Hybred damage) you and achieve more total damage with less guns.


dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.07.24 12:14:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: dalman on 24/07/2003 12:18:42
"(+20% Hybred damage)"
Yea. But how many guns can you fit? 3 if you want some other equipment. 4 if you use some reactor things. So +20% damage is NOT enough to make more damage with less guns. And other ships has other useful bonuses...

Well, of course the pirates are easy if you are just a little experienced. It is actually still possible to kill groups of NPC-cruisers with a single frigate. But for someone without enough experience, I'd absolutely recommend a Maller or Moa for NPC-fighting.

*edit*
"...other useful bonuses" above. For example, the +20% range of a Moa means you can use other ammo than the Thorax, so a Moa user can still deal almost the same damage/gun with same optimal range. So it's quite obvious the Moa is better for NPC if the Thorax has no good drones.

Robomonkey
Posted - 2003.07.24 13:37:00 - [19]
 

You made the point that if you use a Thorax you have to camp belts when killing NPC, and even then you may struggle....thats not the case.

My point was that just because you can mount more guns on a cruiser doesn't mean you'd do more damage than a ship with one less gun.

Miso
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.24 15:46:00 - [20]
 

I think that they are all pretty well matched. I got a Thorax cos I'm Gallente. I like the Moa, but can't be arsed to train the skills for it. I find the thorax a very versatile beast, the drones a lovely bonus. Even a swarm of med scout drones deal out good damage in a tight spot.

And then there's the aesthetic value of the Thorax too. Amarr ships are so god-damn ugly.

Dragon Emperor
Amarr
Dark Design
Posted - 2003.07.24 15:54:00 - [21]
 

Robomonkey, but maller sure can mount more top gun and deal more dmg per gun because more low slot and more power grid and more cap.
maller has better missile defense too because it has a free slot for smartbomb, thorax must give up a turret if you want to fit smartbomb.

Heritor
Caldari
Hated Raiders
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:52:00 - [22]
 

Has anyb ody mentioned the Celestis

Embarassed

Svenja Anneka
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:26:00 - [23]
 

Personally, I like the Moa for the fourth medium slot and the launcher hard points, but for hunting NPCs Maller and Thorax are generally better choices.

The Rupture is a hard sell with projectiles being basically worthless right now, but don't forget that Rupture is the only level 3 cruiser with 3 launcher hard points and good speed. As a suicide torpedo boat with 3 laser/hybrid turrets and 3 torpedo tubes mounted it can overrun very well PvP.

Robomonkey
Posted - 2003.07.25 10:46:00 - [24]
 

Ok, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I never meant to say that the Thorax could deal more turret damage than the Maller, just that it could nearly match it, look at the example below

Thorax, power grid 700
Engineering 5 = 875
4 reactors = 1281 total power

put in 4 250 rails = -1120

So we can fit 4 rails the damage mod for these will be:-
base damage is 2.5
add cruiser 4 skill = 3
add 1 std dmg mods in the other low slot = 3.21 total mod

3.21 x 4 guns = 12.84 total damage.


Maller, power grid 850
Engineering 5 = 1062
4 reactors = 1555 total power

put in 5 250 rails = -1400

So we can fit 5 rails the damage mod for these will be:-
base damage is 2.5
add 2 std dmg mods in the other low slots = 2.86 total mod

2.86 x 5 guns = 14.31 total damage.

both of these configs are very tight, but allow one spare slot for missile defense etc.

arguably the 1.47 difference multiplied by the ammo type and ROF would make a valuable difference, but with one less gun the difference isn't that big. Plus none of this takes into account what the Thorax is designed for....DRONES. Add them and its one of the best ships.

This is only my opinion of course!!! Very Happy

ULTIMA TREX
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2003.07.25 12:18:00 - [25]
 

Good sums robomonkey. Drones are a usefull asset both for mining and combat. on pvp drones are very good as they supply confusion and high damage quickly. as some1 said it would take 4 medium smartbombs to take down 1 combat drone splash damage also to other drones but distance would lower the damage implied. have you ever tried to target a pirate whos surrounded by cargo containers and you have to do it as fast as possible to imput as much damage as possible. its hard due to time and panic. meanwhile the drones are hitting you and the thorax is blasting 4x250mm compressed rails. next targeting drones is hard aswell as their so fast and close range is not good for your ship (turret speed). weapons wise a Thorax can equip the same if not close to a Maller. coz wiht a maller adding that extra turret u have to add all sorts of stuff to ur config to boost power and cpu. Thorax will have power elft not adding that extra turret and reach close to the mallers 5 turrets but without the sacrifice of low or medium slots. ive seen damage by Thoraxes with heavy combat drones and i would not like to face a thorax with 8 wasps/ogres and the thoraxes guns with a Maller.



dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.07.25 12:57:00 - [26]
 

Robomonkey...

Well, Mallers don't use hybrids, they use lasers. I'm not sure, but do lasers still use less powergrid? A maller will probably just use 4 Heavy beams, and 1 small turret. It won't need more then 1 reactor then. So it can use 5 damage mods. And when you have better then standard mods... You can't expect everyone to have 5 extruded, but some skadi and C4S at least. Suppose you have "as average" 1.09 mods. Then the Maller gets 4 Heavy Beams each with damage mod of 3.85, while the Thorax gets 4 guns with 3.27. And that also requires lvl 4 in cruiser for the Thorax user. That's 7 days of training the Maller user can put in other skills. And all those mods means the Maller will have a better RoF too. It's very obvious that a Maller can deal out much more damage than a Thorax if it doesn't use heavy drones.
And the fact that the Maller don't have to carry any ammo is also nice when fighting NPCs.

Blueblooded
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2003.07.25 12:58:00 - [27]
 

"And then there's the aesthetic value of the Thorax too. Amarr ships are so god-damn ugly."

Omen is a greatlookinh Amarr cruiser, and the uggliest ship in the game is still by far Moa
Twisted Evil

Robomonkey
Posted - 2003.07.25 13:35:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Robomonkey on 25/07/2003 13:55:02
Dalman...

I'm not arguing configs or anything simply demonstrating that you don't have to pack as many guns on your ship as you can to get the best damage. I'm also not saying the Maller is better than the Thorax, or vice versa.

Point of note though Heavy Beam Lasers use 280 pwr grid same as 250 rails (so you can't use less power reactors), but they use nearly twice as much cap and have a slower rate of fire.

Also you compared with the best low slot dmg mods not standard ones as I did.

I'm not wanting a flame war here, as I said befoer just my OPINION.

Oh, and thankyou Ultima for reading it as it was intended, information, not a challange!!!!

Runefinger
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.25 16:03:00 - [29]
 

get a thorax with 5 anode ions and you rock them all :)
adding 8 wasp drones and your the ultimate killing machine :)

Dragon Emperor
Amarr
Dark Design
Posted - 2003.07.25 16:13:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 25/07/2003 16:22:33
5 anode and wasp drones? then I must say you are dead meat before you can fire.

ahh, forget this thread is for npc hunting, so maybe that's a reasonable choice if you have good equipments/skills to make you last long enough.


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