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blankseplocked Had my first PVP Experience w/ the Deimos tonight, and...
 
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Macel
Posted - 2005.07.30 02:38:00 - [1]
 

... And my opponent wiped the floor with me...

I wasn't planning on fighting so soon after purchasing this ship - I had wanted to invest some more in gunnery, but was semi-forced into this one.

A pirate raven warped in system and was looking around for us.. I was over a planet scanning when he warped in 20k out from me. I immediately warped out.. He followed. I gained the advantage this time, because he warped right on top of me. I figured that I had a chance, so what the hell.. Launched my drones, locked em, waited for em to fire first (didnt want the sec hit, and he's in the alliance my corp is supposed to be joining)... I let loose on him when he launched torps on me. The combined 6 heavy drones he was using + torps wore down my tank much faster than I had anticipated. I had overestimated how much the missile nerf affected torp damage against cruisers ,I guess.. After briefly trying to take him head on, I realized I was losing fast and tried to afterburn (yes, afterburn, not MWD) away from him to get out of scrambler range... no luck..

Here's what my setup looked like.. It wasnt exactly what I wanted to end up with... I dont think it was terrible either though..

-3 anode ions, 2 modals, 1 named medium nos in highs (AM ammo of course)
-10mn AB2, warp jammer, target painter in med slot
-Med Armor Rep 2, Active Explosive Hardener, passive multi-resist hardener, one RCU, one PDS, one t2 mag field stabilizer in lows.

My armor resists were in the 60-75% range for EM and explosive, and kinetic/thermal were upper 70s and 87.5% respectively.

Just curious if any experienced players can critique what I did wrong. I was expecting, especially after the torpedo nerf, to hold out a little better against a raven, even given my not-perfect gunnery skills and loadout. Are t2 medium guns that much more damaging?

I know the raven was shield tanked (he was running hardeners) and that he was using at least thermal torps. He layed killing blow on me with a thermal torp...

Avatar Ashlee
Posted - 2005.07.30 02:47:00 - [2]
 

if he had EM, he would have eaten thru u pretty fast.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.07.30 02:59:00 - [3]
 

Need a bit more info here. Was he breaking your tank because your med rep couldn't keep up with his damage, or because you ran out of cap?

Another couple of bits of info we might be able to use are what were your Medium Blaster and Assault Ship skill levels. Those have a rather significant impact on the Diemos' damage potential.

One mistake I can safely guess you made was not killing his drones. Six Tech II Berserkers are going to be doing a minimum of 139 dps to you. Even with 60% resists to explosive and lvl 5 repair systems, the best a single Medium Armour rep is going to handle is a mere 88.9 explosive per second. From the drones alone, you're going to be taking 20 dps beyond what your armour rep can handle. Anything his torps do is just going to be the icing on the cake.

Harry Voyager

Macel
Posted - 2005.07.30 03:17:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Macel on 30/07/2005 03:17:34
Originally by: Harry Voyager
Need a bit more info here. Was he breaking your tank because your med rep couldn't keep up with his damage, or because you ran out of cap?

Another couple of bits of info we might be able to use are what were your Medium Blaster and Assault Ship skill levels. Those have a rather significant impact on the Diemos' damage potential.

One mistake I can safely guess you made was not killing his drones. Six Tech II Berserkers are going to be doing a minimum of 139 dps to you. Even with 60% resists to explosive and lvl 5 repair systems, the best a single Medium Armour rep is going to handle is a mere 88.9 explosive per second. From the drones alone, you're going to be taking 20 dps beyond what your armour rep can handle. Anything his torps do is just going to be the icing on the cake.

Harry Voyager


My armor repper simply couldnt keep up. My medium blaster is at rank 3 and my heavy assault ships is still at rank 1 (yeah, ouch)... I didnt think about going for his drones first.. I guess the best way to kill them would be with my medium drones? I doubt medium blasters would be able to hit them...

edit: his drones were doing pretty nasty damage themselves, but whenever a salvo of his torps would hit me, I'd lose a good 25% of my armor.

Cary Grant
Caldari
Posted - 2005.07.30 03:25:00 - [5]
 

Do not try to tank a Deimos, you will lose EVERY time. Your ship's strengths lie in pure damage output. So concentrate on dealing as MUCH damage as you can, 1 on 1 against any BS, a tanked out Deimos will not survive since it is not designed for that role. You can survive for a bit, though your kit will never break a tanking BS and your cap will suffer. Go for pure damage, and utilize your ship bonuses. If you want a tanker go Sacrilege, otherwise use skirmish tactics. Tackle the BS then take your time.
Just my take on the Deimos, as I fly a Sacrilege, I dont know what works best for your ship, though I have taken out several Deimos pilots who thought they could make a tank out their ship as well as dish out damage. Now you know from 1st hand experience, that is an expensive mistake. Good luck on your next kit.

Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.07.30 03:38:00 - [6]
 

your problem is your loadout and skills. train, and always run atleast 2 dmg mods.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.07.30 03:45:00 - [7]
 

You shouldn't have a problem hitting Heavy Drones with blasters. They have a Sig Radius of 100m, and Medium Blasters resolve at 125m. No worse than pegging a cruiser.

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2005.07.30 03:49:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Selim on 30/07/2005 03:49:13
I didn't even undock my Vagabond until I had HAC 4, and med autocannon spec 4. I didn't really start fighting in it until I had both of those to 5. Basically every skill used on my Vag is at 5. I can't tell you enough how skill intensive HACs are. You need to be proficient both in skillpoints and in tactics and player skill.

My advice to you is to not even bother buying a Deimos until you can use t2 med blasters, t2 medium nos, have hac 4, and be able to think of a better setup than that.

Honestly, if you bother training cruiser 5 so you can use HAC's, don't half-ass it and just level 4 HAC skill/gun specs. Level 5 them, and you will be happy.

Amarr knight
Aggressive Tendencies
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2005.07.30 05:47:00 - [9]
 

With your current skill......go for an ishtar. As u will tank better and wont depend mainly on guns for damage. But still your skill are preety low for flying a HAC. People get good results with them because they train hell of out skills related to it.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.30 10:04:00 - [10]
 

Don't think your setup is that bad. That PDU should have been a mag field though, and your highs should be all t2 blasters. And selim is right in that HAC 4 med blaster 4 and all gunnery support at 4 is bare minimal. Deimos survives on killling FAST, and that's what you where lacking mostly.

Killing of his drones would probably have been a good idea as well.

And one last, what kinda drone skills do you have cause you can get quite a lot of damage from them as well. 10 hammerhead IIs with lvl 4 gallente drone spec... does a lot of damage and would have made a excellent enemy heavy drones killteam.

Macel
Posted - 2005.07.30 12:14:00 - [11]
 

I can field 8 drones (drone interfacing 3).

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep in mind that its important to get HAC skill up to rank 4 in addition to gunnery.

Admiral Pieg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.30 13:24:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 30/07/2005 03:49:13
I didn't even undock my Vagabond until I had HAC 4, and med autocannon spec 4. I didn't really start fighting in it until I had both of those to 5. Basically every skill used on my Vag is at 5. I can't tell you enough how skill intensive HACs are. You need to be proficient both in skillpoints and in tactics and player skill.

My advice to you is to not even bother buying a Deimos until you can use t2 med blasters, t2 medium nos, have hac 4, and be able to think of a better setup than that.

Honestly, if you bother training cruiser 5 so you can use HAC's, don't half-ass it and just level 4 HAC skill/gun specs. Level 5 them, and you will be happy.


Training any turret specializating skill to 5 rather then 4 sounds like borderline insanity to me. How much difference will 2% damage really make? I mean even if your dps is 500 thats a mere 10 extra damage.. Im sure even your passive shield regen will take care of that Confused

Ortu Konsinni
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2005.07.30 13:28:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Admiral Pieg
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 30/07/2005 03:49:13
I didn't even undock my Vagabond until I had HAC 4, and med autocannon spec 4. I didn't really start fighting in it until I had both of those to 5. Basically every skill used on my Vag is at 5. I can't tell you enough how skill intensive HACs are. You need to be proficient both in skillpoints and in tactics and player skill.

My advice to you is to not even bother buying a Deimos until you can use t2 med blasters, t2 medium nos, have hac 4, and be able to think of a better setup than that.

Honestly, if you bother training cruiser 5 so you can use HAC's, don't half-ass it and just level 4 HAC skill/gun specs. Level 5 them, and you will be happy.


Training any turret specializating skill to 5 rather then 4 sounds like borderline insanity to me. How much difference will 2% damage really make? I mean even if your dps is 500 thats a mere 10 extra damage.. Im sure even your passive shield regen will take care of that Confused


That's elitists for you. HAC 5 is obviously good to have but I know gun specializations will be the last things I ever train to level 5.

Ethan Tomlinson
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.07.30 17:50:00 - [14]
 

where else is there to go when u want to specialize in one ship and u have pretty much all relevant skills to 4 or 5



Id say train ones at 4 to 5 gives u a 2-5% edge against other pilots who havn't trained em :) also i had something similar happen to me when i was in cerberus a few months ago entering y9g to do some pirating. ASS was there in a domi and mauler. I locked em then started pounding on the mauler. he warped out in structure then i went for the domi but as soon as i started mwding towards him he unleashed like 14 heavy drones . rather than killing them i got scared and mwd'd out of scrambler range and warped out with about 50% armor. drones are tough and in order to win a lot of fights against bigger ships u should allways start by destroying drones :)

Saladin
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2005.07.30 18:07:00 - [15]
 

I never flew the diemos, but spent ample time in a zealot and killed several battleships in 1 v 1 combat. I never have been able to tank battleship damage, so I relied on poor tracking of large guns or on doing more damage to them.

I think the key piece of information here is that you had medium hybrid trained to lvl 3. A HAC is a serious investment in both training time and money, so when you fly one you need your skills and weapons to be up to par. I never even touched my zealot until I was able to use t2 heavy pulse lasers. You need to take the time to enhance your skills so they are worthy of the diemos. This means being able to use t2 heavy blasters and have skills like rapid fire, motion prediction...etc maxed out. Having hull upgrades 5 beefs up your armor and makes you last a bit longer. Surgical strike at level 4 or 5 is a must as well. Don't stand still and let those drones or torps hit you easily either.

Defeating a bs in a HAC is very possible, and trust me its worth the wait when you are ready. IMO fewer things in this game will give you same rush.

Thor Darkwing
Angel Brotherhood
Posted - 2005.07.30 20:34:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 30/07/2005 03:49:13
I didn't even undock my Vagabond until I had HAC 4, and med autocannon spec 4. I didn't really start fighting in it until I had both of those to 5. Basically every skill used on my Vag is at 5. I can't tell you enough how skill intensive HACs are. You need to be proficient both in skillpoints and in tactics and player skill.

My advice to you is to not even bother buying a Deimos until you can use t2 med blasters, t2 medium nos, have hac 4, and be able to think of a better setup than that.

Honestly, if you bother training cruiser 5 so you can use HAC's, don't half-ass it and just level 4 HAC skill/gun specs. Level 5 them, and you will be happy.


sorry, but i'm really sick of people saying "tou can use "insert ship here" until you have maxed all related skills and mined in 1.0 the first 5 moths of your gametime.

ofc you can fly a deimos at hac lvl1 with t1 equipment, just make sure you do the right things with it! don't go into any hardcore pvp, stick to some easier stuff and learn you ship from the beggining.
hade a Temp before i could use large turrets (was even under 1m sp) that ship lasted for over 6months for me, just because i did te right things and never took any big risks, and i got to know my ship from the start.

Tragar
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2005.07.30 23:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Admiral Pieg
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 30/07/2005 03:49:13
I didn't even undock my Vagabond until I had HAC 4, and med autocannon spec 4. I didn't really start fighting in it until I had both of those to 5. Basically every skill used on my Vag is at 5. I can't tell you enough how skill intensive HACs are. You need to be proficient both in skillpoints and in tactics and player skill.

My advice to you is to not even bother buying a Deimos until you can use t2 med blasters, t2 medium nos, have hac 4, and be able to think of a better setup than that.

Honestly, if you bother training cruiser 5 so you can use HAC's, don't half-ass it and just level 4 HAC skill/gun specs. Level 5 them, and you will be happy.


Training any turret specializating skill to 5 rather then 4 sounds like borderline insanity to me. How much difference will 2% damage really make? I mean even if your dps is 500 thats a mere 10 extra damage.. Im sure even your passive shield regen will take care of that Confused



I have large pulse/beam spec 5 :X

Vishnej
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
Posted - 2005.07.31 03:04:00 - [18]
 

Did you have MWD on?

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.07.31 04:04:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Thor Darkwing

sorry, but i'm really sick of people saying "tou can use "insert ship here" until you have maxed all related skills and mined in 1.0 the first 5 moths of your gametime.

ofc you can fly a deimos at hac lvl1 with t1 equipment, just make sure you do the right things with it! don't go into any hardcore pvp, stick to some easier stuff and learn you ship from the beggining.
hade a Temp before i could use large turrets (was even under 1m sp) that ship lasted for over 6months for me, just because i did te right things and never took any big risks, and i got to know my ship from the start.


Agreed. If one doesn't fly one's ship until one has lvl 5 skills in all related fields, then when one does fly it, one will have so little real experience that you'll be just as poor as if you were flying it with all lvl 1 skills.

Due to RL issues, I've had to drop out of PvP since around October. I know when I get back in, it's going to be a blood bath for me for the first three to six months, until I get my feet back under me, and I'll have to pay off 20m sp clones while I'm at it.

I say, if you've got it, use it, even if your character skills aren't to par, because if you don't, you're going to be such a green noob, you'll still die in droves.

Harry Voyager

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2005.07.31 05:27:00 - [20]
 

People shouldn't be flying HAC's into pvp if they aren't already good pvpers. Practicing in a stabber/thorax/whatever, and mastering it, should be a prerequisite to training, buying, and flying a HAC into pvp.

Captain Rod
Posted - 2005.07.31 12:03:00 - [21]
 

I think fighting a Raven in a HAC with that poor gunnery skills (if your not specialised???) is an expensive lesson in how to get your ass handed to you.Confused

Sky Hunter
0NE
Posted - 2005.07.31 12:37:00 - [22]
 

Agree here with Selim completly.

However you can take HAC for a spin with lower skills, but not attacking anything that you cant kill for sure. i.e. frig-type ships, cruisers and such. Even with lvl 5s on HAC related skills you still can loose to BS if he has something like Nosferatus fitted along with close range weaponary and drones. You just need to choose your targets right.

Oh and btw, T2 guns make huge diffrence. You will see when you try it Smile


Originally by: Admiral Pieg
Training any turret specializating skill to 5 rather then 4 sounds like borderline insanity to me. How much difference will 2% damage really make? I mean even if your dps is 500 thats a mere 10 extra damage.. Im sure even your passive shield regen will take care of that Confused




If you want to specialize yourself in something, you need lvl 5s. And remember. Those 2% dmg can save your ship sometime. They can add you those few dmg to lay final blow on your opponent while you both already in structure.

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2005.07.31 13:55:00 - [23]
 

theresjsut one rule, fly what u can afford to loose.

when u have alot money, fly and loose hacs - its the fastest way to gain experience.

if not fly its t1 part, for u the thorax and get some experience.

Sky Hunter
0NE
Posted - 2005.07.31 14:08:00 - [24]
 

I wouldnt say that the more better ship you fly, the more expirience youll gain.

To get expirienced you should instead fly the smaller or T1 class(in that case). So once youll be ok in cruiser, youll surely will be better in HAC sine you already know how things are work, how bonuses affect your ship and such.

Semjase
Minmatar
Shadow Company
Legiunea ROmana
Posted - 2005.07.31 16:01:00 - [25]
 

A tech II ship imo requires Tech II equipment, get the skills up for Tech II guns and mag stab IIs, you got to protect that expensive investment. Also get a med hybrid damage implant to increase damage further. Try to fit 2 cap relays in lows or one and a cap recharger in med (if u are pvp and taking a tackler along with you ditch the scrambler) will allow you to run the rep longer. With all blaster setups start with low slot fitting , meds speak for themselves, then fit a mix of electrons and ions to suit your pg, try to avoid fitting pdu or rcu on this ship and use the slot for a mag stab II. Also DO NOT take anybody on until you have hac lvl4 , you are losing a lot of damage output with the skill at lvl1.

Tech II guns do make a difference, you have some skills to train that will give the deimos its edge in damage output. As the guys are saying pick your targets, a close range setup bship will likely chew you up, even quicker if it has large nos on. I use my deimos for npc ratting in 0.0 but the loadout is the same as pvp so if i get jumped im in with a chance. I would fit a MWD also (ab might save you some damage but you take longer to get into blaster range and a lot of ships will outrun you even with ab at full blast) , its better to get into range with, just remember it increases damage you take so use it to get in range then switch it off and orbit. Also a webber is a must to hold the target down while you orbit, a sniper ship is toast if you get under his guns and orbit him whilst he is webbed.
Also dont mix active and passive hardners it gimps the Percentage's

My Setup
1 Electron Blaster II, 4 Ion Blaster II, Prototype Cloak
Y-T8 MWD , Fleeting Webber, Scrambler
Corpum Med Rep, 44.5 passive explosive, 2 tech II adaptive Nano,2 Cap Relay(switch a relay for a mag stab II if you wish)

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.31 22:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Semjase
A tech II ship imo requires Tech II equipment, get the skills up for Tech II guns and mag stab IIs, you got to protect that expensive investment. Also get a med hybrid damage implant to increase damage further. Try to fit 2 cap relays in lows or one and a cap recharger in med (if u are pvp and taking a tackler along with you ditch the scrambler) will allow you to run the rep longer. With all blaster setups start with low slot fitting , meds speak for themselves, then fit a mix of electrons and ions to suit your pg, try to avoid fitting pdu or rcu on this ship and use the slot for a mag stab II. Also DO NOT take anybody on until you have hac lvl4 , you are losing a lot of damage output with the skill at lvl1.

Tech II guns do make a difference, you have some skills to train that will give the deimos its edge in damage output. As the guys are saying pick your targets, a close range setup bship will likely chew you up, even quicker if it has large nos on. I use my deimos for npc ratting in 0.0 but the loadout is the same as pvp so if i get jumped im in with a chance. I would fit a MWD also (ab might save you some damage but you take longer to get into blaster range and a lot of ships will outrun you even with ab at full blast) , its better to get into range with, just remember it increases damage you take so use it to get in range then switch it off and orbit. Also a webber is a must to hold the target down while you orbit, a sniper ship is toast if you get under his guns and orbit him whilst he is webbed.
Also dont mix active and passive hardners it gimps the Percentage's

My Setup
1 Electron Blaster II, 4 Ion Blaster II, Prototype Cloak
Y-T8 MWD , Fleeting Webber, Scrambler
Corpum Med Rep, 44.5 passive explosive, 2 tech II adaptive Nano,2 Cap Relay(switch a relay for a mag stab II if you wish)



switching out a relay and that useless cloak for a rcu and a nos is a great idea. Tech2 mwd is a good idea as well, and no mag fields is moronic at best.

So while your advice isn't half bad, your setup is pretty damn crappy really.

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.31 22:18:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sky Hunter
I wouldnt say that the more better ship you fly, the more expirience youll gain.

To get expirienced you should instead fly the smaller or T1 class(in that case). So once youll be ok in cruiser, youll surely will be better in HAC sine you already know how things are work, how bonuses affect your ship and such.


DOesn't completely hold true in the case of deimos and rax since rax relies on small guns and heavy drones mostly, while deimos relies on med drones and med blasters but otherwise that's pretty sound advice.

Serret
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.08.01 00:25:00 - [28]
 

Don't listen to the people saying that you need every skill to level 5 before you can PvP. Experience beats skill points every time.

Do listen to the people who suggest PvPing in a cheaper version of the ship. Use the opportunity to die often and learn.

Sky Hunter
0NE
Posted - 2005.08.01 00:33:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Serret
Don't listen to the people saying that you need every skill to level 5 before you can PvP. Experience beats skill points every time.

Do listen to the people who suggest PvPing in a cheaper version of the ship. Use the opportunity to die often and learn.



Well, taking HAC out for pvp, better have HAC skill at lvl 4 along with spec at lvl 4.

Its still ok to take it out earlier, but not to engage anything that bigger then cruiser.

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2005.08.01 00:35:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Sky Hunter
Originally by: Serret
Don't listen to the people saying that you need every skill to level 5 before you can PvP. Experience beats skill points every time.

Do listen to the people who suggest PvPing in a cheaper version of the ship. Use the opportunity to die often and learn.



Well, taking HAC out for pvp, better have HAC skill at lvl 4 along with spec at lvl 4.

Its still ok to take it out earlier, but not to engage anything that bigger then cruiser.


No, you can still fight other HACs and BS with skill 4. What I'M saying is that if you bother to train HACs, you should go all the way training to 5 because HACs are very specialized ships, and you should reciprocate by specializing for them.


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