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Saatar Fora
Posted - 2005.07.28 07:13:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Saatar Fora on 28/07/2005 07:15:44
Why does it seem to me like a large section of the playerbase on these forums is intent on scaring the newbies with the threat of PvP? Having pvped for over six months now, and having spent literally all of the time before that as a miner in empire space (0.4-0.1 included) it strikes me that most people who 'don't like to pvp' (at least the ones that seem to post on these forums) have a somewhat inflated view of the danger involved.

I was once one of these quivering new people (not less than six months ago), and while I wasn't anti-pvp, I was scared outta my boots by all those big bad corps and alliances. However, spending quite a bit of time mining in 0.4 and below I never once even saw a player pirate warp to the same belt as me. Part of this is extreme caution, if someone I thought might be a pirate entered local I would dock, but most of the time that was probably unecessary, and even including the times that I probably didn't need to dock, it hardly happened at all. As for 0.5 and up, it is certainly technically true that a greifer in 0.5 and up might go after you for some reason in a suicide kestrel or caracal, and having done that might succeed in blowing up your ship before concord blasts them, but it's not likely (unless it's ridiculously common in caldari space or something, where I haven't lived much). I never even saw anyone make a suicide attempt, much less a sucessful suicide run.

The fact is, most of Eve is not as dangerous as what you read on the forums would lead you to beleive. Even if you do see a pirate and they decide to go after you, it's generally easier for you to get away from them than for them to catch you (unless you're in an industrial, of course). You don't need a seperate non-pvp shard (which, even if it did work, by the way, would be nothing like this one, because of the fundamental ways in which player conflict influence the economy of this one), you just need a sprinkling of caution and you will most likely never have to fire a gun at a player if you don't want to.

Indeed, due to the mobility of Eve assets, and the fact that they're generally packed in to stations (meaning industrial setups don't actually have to deploy equipment they might need to defend) you'll generally find it more effective to run than to fight back. Players fight back for many reasons, but generally among them is not because their assets will be destroyed (that's less true on a mega-corp or alliance scale, but that's beside the point). What I mean by this is that you can survive and even thrive and get rich in Eve without ever firin a shot and (if you're really really careful) without losing any ships.

The other thing to bear in mind is not to count out PvP just because other games have taught you that you don't like it. From my experience PvP in Eve is fundamentally different than pvp in other rpg games, being much much more group (fleet) based and trying really hard to be much more tactics based.

What's the message I'm trying to get across with all this incoherent rambling? It's not as bad as it sounds. Stick around and see for yourselves, don't get discouraged by one or two bad experiences, for the most part you will get along fine without fighting other players.

ArcticFox
The Night Crew
Posted - 2005.07.28 07:14:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: ArcticFox on 28/07/2005 07:15:17
D'oh, just realized I've been posting with my alt, not my main. Damn arbitrary character order thingy.

That's me up there.

W0lverine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.28 07:16:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: ArcticFox
Edited by: ArcticFox on 28/07/2005 07:15:17
D'oh, just realized I've been posting with my alt, not my main. Damn arbitrary character order thingy.

That's me up there.


go to setnings(under forum menu(must be logged in)), select your main character and tick box "default" and problem solved

Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
Posted - 2005.07.28 07:48:00 - [4]
 

Yes, most people are stupid. They fly around without escorts or basic knowledge and get popped. Then they post on the EVE forums about it and try to make it more than it seems. Welcome to life :)


Jack Amarr
Inner Vort3x
Posted - 2005.07.28 08:27:00 - [5]
 

there is danger in going into low sec space. just the other day i went into naguton, just flying throguh, and as i cam in, i saw 2 apocs flashing red with skulls on in the overview. since i was just in a shuttle i warped away before anything could happen but as i warped to the next stargate, i saw a guy hauling, heading for tha gate. its this kind of danger that i love about eve. you have t be on your toes even if you are in empire, cos those sentry guns ain't too hard to tank.

Fester Addams
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.07.28 09:04:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Yes, most people are stupid. They fly around without escorts or basic knowledge and get popped. Then they post on the EVE forums about it and try to make it more than it seems. Welcome to life :)



I would love for you to explain how an escort would help keep an industrial ... or for that matter any ship alive.

Scouting ahead does help as well as having protection will make it less likely that the attacker will profit from the attack but the fact remains that there is absolutely no way for escorts to make the trip safer from the pirates sniping it.

As for the threat to a ship... If you know what you are doing then the risk is minimal the problem however is that people, despite popular belief among pirates, dont like being ganked.
If you get ganked once you will be less reluctant to go back there, if that is compliled by smacktalk and shady methods it is usually enough to keep players who play the game for fun out of lowsec... wich ironicly is exactly the oposit of what the pirates want.

A while back there was a good form post, it had a very good point.

If pirates didnt smack then the target would feel a tad better about the incident, if they chatted friendly for a bit and gave a redson why they targeted the victim then the victim may actually learn somthing from it and thus feel he had a part in the whole thing... as oposed to getting ganked and then verbally assaulted and abused.

I have lost some ships to pirates... in total it adds upp to somthing like 100mil lost but the times the pirate was decent it felt ok, the time I got smack I just felt sorry for the pirate, after all you dont have to be good to kill an empty hauler when you are in a BS (yes empty... and with standard tech I modules).

Sybylle
Amarr
ICE is Coming to EVE
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2005.07.28 09:05:00 - [7]
 

Even without speaking of 0.0, it just amazes me how systems under 0.5/0.4 can be so desert. I made a 73 jumps trip this night, with 50 under 0.5, and I had no problem at all... Most of the systems were empty.

I think what scares people is simply loosing expensive stuff with Pvp.
But they forget the main rule : don't fight with something you can't afford to loose !!!
It means : you don't want to loose a BS, then use a frigate or a cruiser.
You can also make an alt to start some pvp. You don't need loads of skills if you specialize.

You can also pvp within your corp.

Remember you will sooner or later be involved in pvp (even if you stay in Empire, you just need somebody to put a war on your corp). It's better to be prepared.

Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.07.28 09:16:00 - [8]
 

The topic is about newbies. As i understand, now even tutorial agents are sending players on courier missions through low sec space. In this case all the talk about an escort is useless. What escort can arrange a 3 days old char? And there are enough players who would gank the n00b frig in the low sec just to get a kill-mail ego boost.

As for the more experienced players, yes, they can avoid pirates if they use the right features of the map and if they know what to do in low sec. It doesn't make the gankers better though, ganking an indy with an apoc !=fun imo.

hired goon
Posted - 2005.07.28 09:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Fester Addams

I would love for you to explain how an escort would help keep an industrial ... or for that matter any ship alive.



Two or three Blackbirds escorting a ship can jam an attacking squad, allowing the hauler / whatever to escape. Change to scorpion / griffin as applicable.

Fester Addams
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.07.28 09:40:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: hired goon

Two or three Blackbirds escorting a ship can jam an attacking squad, allowing the hauler / whatever to escape. Change to scorpion / griffin as applicable.


So you are honestly saying that a few blackbirds and or scorps/griffins can jam ships at 100-150km distance?

I know the modules have been changed but...

The only way to keep a hauler safe is to use a scout and ... Im sad to say instajump bookmarks.

Naturally you could have your scout party consist of a coupple of cruisers and/or battleships that simply clear the gates ahead of the hauler but there are in reality few young players for whom this is an option.

Your sugestion thus may work for us experienced and connected players but for the new player its at best a two man operation.

Kin Hanyerec
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.28 10:02:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Saatar Fora
Edited by: Saatar Fora on 28/07/2005 07:15:44
Why does it seem to me like a large section of the playerbase on these forums is intent on scaring the newbies with the threat of PvP? Having pvped for over six months now, and having spent literally all of the time before that as a miner in empire space (0.4-0.1 included) it strikes me that most people who 'don't like to pvp' (at least the ones that seem to post on these forums) have a somewhat inflated view of the danger involved.

I was once one of these quivering new people (not less than six months ago), and while I wasn't anti-pvp, I was scared outta my boots by all those big bad corps and alliances. However, spending quite a bit of time mining in 0.4 and below I never once even saw a player pirate warp to the same belt as me. Part of this is extreme caution, if someone I thought might be a pirate entered local I would dock, but most of the time that was probably unecessary, and even including the times that I probably didn't need to dock, it hardly happened at all. As for 0.5 and up, it is certainly technically true that a greifer in 0.5 and up might go after you for some reason in a suicide kestrel or caracal, and having done that might succeed in blowing up your ship before concord blasts them, but it's not likely (unless it's ridiculously common in caldari space or something, where I haven't lived much). I never even saw anyone make a suicide attempt, much less a sucessful suicide run.

The fact is, most of Eve is not as dangerous as what you read on the forums would lead you to beleive. Even if you do see a pirate and they decide to go after you, it's generally easier for you to get away from them than for them to catch you (unless you're in an industrial, of course). You don't need a seperate non-pvp shard (which, even if it did work, by the way, would be nothing like this one, because of the fundamental ways in which player conflict influence the economy of this one), you just need a sprinkling of caution and you will most likely never have to fire a gun at a player if you don't want to.

Indeed, due to the mobility of Eve assets, and the fact that they're generally packed in to stations (meaning industrial setups don't actually have to deploy equipment they might need to defend) you'll generally find it more effective to run than to fight back. Players fight back for many reasons, but generally among them is not because their assets will be destroyed (that's less true on a mega-corp or alliance scale, but that's beside the point). What I mean by this is that you can survive and even thrive and get rich in Eve without ever firin a shot and (if you're really really careful) without losing any ships.

The other thing to bear in mind is not to count out PvP just because other games have taught you that you don't like it. From my experience PvP in Eve is fundamentally different than pvp in other rpg games, being much much more group (fleet) based and trying really hard to be much more tactics based.

What's the message I'm trying to get across with all this incoherent rambling? It's not as bad as it sounds. Stick around and see for yourselves, don't get discouraged by one or two bad experiences, for the most part you will get along fine without fighting other players.


so true...

Baleine4Nerver
Posted - 2005.07.28 10:16:00 - [12]
 

i was ransomed in space a short while ago.. in a belt,

a tackling Inty and a bashing megathron, I was in a Maller, I sttod no chance of getting away as I was scrambled, and doubt I could have took the inty out before the megathron ripped me a new one.

they demanded a million for my release, I said no. if you cant stand by your principals.. well then you cant stand at all. the ship and mods must have been worth 14 mill.

thinking back it was pretty stupid as I could have lost a lot more than a mill, but i think they admired my cahoonas and let me go Smile so thx to those friendly highway robbers . I must have caught them on a good day.

Eddie Guns
Posted - 2005.07.28 10:28:00 - [13]
 

some one once said that the that keeps ppl out of 0.0, was not the PvP or big rats. But the fear of PvP and big rats

Honestly - it's much safer deep in allaince held 0.0 than mining Jaspet in a 0.2 system

Hmm ... sorry about that rather random reply


AlienBreed
Minmatar
LFC
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2005.07.28 10:42:00 - [14]
 

i have never once seen a fair fight pvp
on my first day of playing i had my rookie ship killed buy a guy in a battleship and only yesterday i was attacked buy a guy in a deimos and he killed my rupture
this is why people fear pvp/low sec space, because the supposed pirates are little more than game legal greifers who get a kick out of spoiling the fun of other less able players and then give them idiot names like care bear if they dare to complain that its unfair
the single biggest flaw in this game is the lack of skill involved in actual combat sinse 99% of the time it comes down to who has played the longest and therefore aquired the most skillpoints that decides who wins
if i got attacked by a guy in a similar ship to mine and lost i could accept it and pehaps even was gg,but being hopelessly outmatched just leaves me with a bad feeling
if you read some of the bios flying about tho it seems thats what some of the pvpers want
the realitys of low sec space is that about 80% of peopel you meet are reasonable and friendly but let yoru guard down for even a second and disaster will strike
thats my veiw as somebody who spends almost all my time in 0.1 after playinf for about 2 months

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2005.07.28 11:14:00 - [15]
 

besides lossing your hard earned cruiser theres nothing to fear noobs. now all come see me in 0.0 and i will erm introduce you to pvp

Darkwolf
Caldari
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2005.07.28 11:29:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fester Addams
So you are honestly saying that a few blackbirds and or scorps/griffins can jam ships at 100-150km distance?

I know the modules have been changed but...


I get a 150km optimal range on my Scorp with jammers.

54km base optimal from a tech 2 racial jammer
100% bonus from Caldari Battleship 5
40% bonus from Long Distance Jamming 4
Gives 151.4km optimal range.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.07.28 11:39:00 - [17]
 

Quote:
The fact is, most of Eve is not as dangerous as what you read on the forums would lead you to beleive.


As a matter of fact:

  • 60% of the things people mention on the boards are assumptions based on hearsay.

  • 30% are wild exaggerations ("omg warp to a gate you will die!!11!")

  • 5% are all out lies and trolling, posted in some ridiculous attempt to reach the devs and make them change the game in somebody's favour.

  • 5% are truth.



Let's take gatecamps as an example. There are people around here who talk about them as if you die IRL as soon as you warp within 1AU of them.
What does it take to make it past a gatecamp? A scout, the scanner, some time, a decent bookmark and some IQ. That's all there's to it... yet people talk about gatecamps as if they destroy the entire game. Stupid exaggerations from people who'd rather troll the boards than play the game.



Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.07.28 11:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar

As a matter of fact:[list]
  • 60% of the things people mention on the boards are assumptions based on hearsay.

  • 30% are wild exaggerations ("omg warp to a gate you will die!!11!")

  • 5% are all out lies and trolling, posted in some ridiculous attempt to reach the devs and make them change the game in somebody's favour.

  • 5% are truth.






  • Which category do these stats fall into?Razz

    hired goon
    Posted - 2005.07.28 11:49:00 - [19]
     

    Edited by: hired goon on 28/07/2005 11:50:05
    Dammit Deja Thoris beat me to it Wink

    Ra'virr
    GoonFleet
    GoonSwarm
    Posted - 2005.07.28 11:49:00 - [20]
     

    Danger is a part of Eve.

    hired goon
    Posted - 2005.07.28 11:52:00 - [21]
     

    Originally by: Darkwolf
    Originally by: Fester Addams
    So you are honestly saying that a few blackbirds and or scorps/griffins can jam ships at 100-150km distance?

    I know the modules have been changed but...


    I get a 150km optimal range on my Scorp with jammers.

    54km base optimal from a tech 2 racial jammer
    100% bonus from Caldari Battleship 5
    40% bonus from Long Distance Jamming 4
    Gives 151.4km optimal range.



    Yep. And this isn't even counting falloff.

    Keep up, Fester Addams!

    Sanaen Eydanwadh
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Posted - 2005.07.28 11:55:00 - [22]
     

    To the OP: completely agree, I'm always amazed how some topics can draw EVE as a broken, dangerous and newbies-hostile environment, and how some people on the opposite can be afraid about pvp...

    Originally by: W0lverine
    go to settings (under forum menu(must be logged in)), select your main character and tick box "default" and problem solved

    Shocked thx !!

    Originally by: AlienBreed
    the single biggest flaw in this game is the lack of skill involved in actual combat sinse 99% of the time it comes down to who has played the longest and therefore aquired the most skillpoints that decides who wins


    Shocked once more ! EVE greatest quality is exactly the opposite IMHO: skills/ character-age doesn't matter very much, but the player's experience, organisation, preparation... I've heard that in most other games (tho I've never played any other MMORPG than EVE), if not all, a "lvl50" (or whatever) character pwns a "lvl45" one, without any discussion - I can't see how one could say the same about EVE?

    Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

    Kylania
    Gallente
    Phoenix Industries
    Sylph Alliance
    Posted - 2005.07.28 12:06:00 - [23]
     

    Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
    Let's take gatecamps as an example. There are people around here who talk about them as if you die IRL as soon as you warp within 1AU of them.
    What does it take to make it past a gatecamp? A scout, the scanner, some time, a decent bookmark and some IQ. That's all there's to it... yet people talk about gatecamps as if they destroy the entire game. Stupid exaggerations from people who'd rather troll the boards than play the game.



    Sounds simple, but where does a newbie get a scout, the knowledge and expierence for using a scanner well, decent bookmarks and the years of dealing with this that add up to the IQ? The thread was about scaring newbies, and you described how gate camps aren't anything to be worried about and can be sometimes outsmarted by a TEAM of well equiped, prepared and experienced veterens. Hardly a reassurance for a newbie who's gotta fly through a 0.4 chokepoint for a training mission I'd say.

    MaiLina KaTar
    Posted - 2005.07.28 12:24:00 - [24]
     

    Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 28/07/2005 12:25:21
    Originally by: Kylania
    Sounds simple, but where does a newbie get a scout, the knowledge and expierence for using a scanner well, decent bookmarks and the years of dealing with this that add up to the IQ? The thread was about scaring newbies, and you described how gate camps aren't anything to be worried about and can be sometimes outsmarted by a TEAM of well equiped, prepared and experienced veterens. Hardly a reassurance for a newbie who's gotta fly through a 0.4 chokepoint for a training mission I'd say.


    If you join a corp with some good anf friendly people in it, this is one of the first things you learn when you have reached the point where going to .0 becomes relevant for you. If not then your corp sucks. Period.

    Point two, I never talked about a "TEAM". You can do it alone with one of your alts if you like but as always... having a mate there to help you out is much better. Also you don't need to be a vet. You just need to know your ****, that's it really.

    Originally by: "Deja Thoris"
    Which category do these stats fall into?


    2+ years of experience. 10+ years if I count in all the other games I've played.


    AlienBreed
    Minmatar
    LFC
    Lotka Volterra
    Posted - 2005.07.28 12:40:00 - [25]
     

    Quote:
    once more ! EVE greatest quality is exactly the opposite IMHO: skills/ character-age doesn't matter very much, but the player's experience, organisation, preparation... I've heard that in most other games (tho I've never played any other MMORPG than EVE), if not all, a "lvl50" (or whatever) character pwns a "lvl45" one, without any discussion - I can't see how one could say the same about EVE?


    tech 2 cruiser pwns tech 1 crusier
    tech 2 frigate pwns tech 1 frigate
    bs pwns bc pwns cruiser pwns frigate (with possibility of exception based on age of characters involved)

    put a 2 month old player and a 6 month old player in exactly the same ship and let them go head to head
    if you can proove that there is some kind of equality in that fight or that the 2 month old can by wits and skill (not luck)defeat the 6 month old i will bow to your greater wisdom.saying the 2 month old guy can run away doesnt count
    as far as i can see you buy the rigth to kill lesser players in the length of time you subscribe and at certain points in the tech tree there are big jumps that put you at a significant advantage


    Ja'kar
    M. Corp
    -Mostly Harmless-
    Posted - 2005.07.28 12:52:00 - [26]
     

    there is danger in going into low sec space. just the other day i went into naguton, just flying throguh, and as i cam in, i saw 2 apocs flashing red with skulls on in the overview. since i was just in a shuttle i warped away before anything could happen but as i warped to the next stargate, i saw a guy hauling, heading for tha gate. its this kind of danger that i love about eve. you have t be on your toes even if you are in empire, cos those sentry guns ain't too hard to tank.

    did ya tell him-?

    Sanaen Eydanwadh
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Posted - 2005.07.28 13:37:00 - [27]
     

    Originally by: AlienBreed
    put a 2 month old player and a 6 month old player in exactly the same ship and let them go head to head



    That's the point: such a situation will never happen Wink
    I understand what you mean anyway, and could partly agree; but on the other side, many people complain that their T2 L337 module or Uber-BS-of-Doom should pwn any other thing in game, just because they cost a lot of isks and/ or they've payed CCP 8 years subscription in order to be teh pwnzer (or how ever I'm supposed to write it).

    In the current situation, a relative newbie character has chances to get intel, to adapt, to change fittings, to try and fight his ennemy in a favorable situation with favorable ship/ modules, to escape, or to gang with friends... So I think EVE's pvp is quite well balanced about this.

    Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

    Summersnow
    Posted - 2005.07.28 13:40:00 - [28]
     

    Originally by: AlienBreed
    put a 2 month old player and a 6 month old player in exactly the same ship and let them go head to head
    if you can proove that there is some kind of equality in that fight or that the 2 month old can by wits and skill (not luck)defeat the 6 month old i will bow to your greater wisdom.


    6 MOS CHAR - Gal indy 5, mining barge V, Mining V, Astro-whatever the mining one is V, Refine V, Refine eff V, metalurgy III, Mini reprossessing of various flavors III ( or IV ) + all the other goodies needed to get into a covetor with T2 strips. throw in the required support skills for cap, hull mods, ab, etc & frig III.

    2 mos char - gun V, small turret V, shield thingies V, armor thingies V, etc etc...

    put them both in a tristan and see who wins...

    Player AGE doesn't mean a whole lot. Its the SP in combat related skills that truely matters.

    You know what I'd like to see, could one of the pvp "experts" hop onto char manager and layout the MINIMUM time for a new player to effectively train to be scout, tackler, cruiser, battleship with t1 and then t2 skills to be "effective" at pvp including the cap/shield/hull/repair etc skills?

    Start with amarr since they should be the easiest to get there quickly, then maybe other races.

    Winterblink
    Body Count Inc.
    Pandemic Legion
    Posted - 2005.07.28 13:41:00 - [29]
     

    Originally by: Summersnow
    Player AGE doesn't mean a whole lot. Its the SP in combat related skills that truely matters.

    Actually, it's player skill, not skill points that matters the most.

    Aerick Dawn
    Gallente
    Ixion Defence Systems
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    Posted - 2005.07.28 13:56:00 - [30]
     

    I simply must disagree with you, skillpoints are relevant, but not even close to the deciding factor.

    Experience through losing ships is what is going to save your bacon in the long run.




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