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Netto
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:36:00 - [1]
 

On one hand, real life governments use spies and whatever nefarious technique they can use to further their agenda's but in the world of EVE, a MMORPG, emphasis on game, are such things fair game?

I'm conflicted since I can see both sides of the argument. Reason dictates that all is fair in love and war, but part of me gets ****ed when I read about inside jobs. This is a game of skill/time where you're pit against other players for whatever reasons, should victory or defeat be won with guns/in game politics, and other such means, or should the group of players that have lied and schemed to get characters in an enemy corp/alliance be heralded as victors?

Which is better for the game?

I've witnessed people exploiting, corp thefts on a huge scale, and inside jobs. All of it inspires the same sort of sense of injustice and kills a little more of my love of the game. I guess that's the key. Being a game, I don't mind getting blown up, podded, cremated and financially ruined, but if someone lies and schemes to get into my corp and sabotages/robs the corp/alliance, it's a completely different story.

I'm curious to hear what peoples opinions are on these spy alts and their doings. Fair game or despicable?

Netto

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:44:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 24/07/2005 10:45:08
The question you pose is irrelevant.

CCP chooses to force as little morality on eve players as they can wihin reason. The result is there being multiple sets of principles at play in a community this large.

Asking for any one of them to get poreferred treatment is an exercise in futility.

Since I am in little doubt as to what sparked this thread, let me enlighten you on my position on this subject.

In my opinion, Eve is a game of powerplay. The pitting of my wits against yours, one corp against the other. Power is not only derived from highslots in Eve, and in my opinion ANY form of exercising your power as a corporation in this game is allowed when it comes to the annihilation of an enemy.

CCP has already put in protective measure that assure no corporation can be utterly destroyed, and that no player can ever be without any perspective of recovery.

Sure, I will call certain things lame too. Like simply infiltrating and taking everything out of only the module hangars for example. Or declaring war and never showing up. Or Ravnes with 5 wcs, whatever. That's based on my set of principles, and not something everyone else needs to agree with.

One should not use infiltration and spying lightly, but as far as I am concerned it's all within the fair game of war. Exactly as much as the use of propaganda, economic warfare and mercenaries is.

Netto
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:52:00 - [3]
 

I have no intention of trying to get things changed based upon my personal set of ethics or morals, so in a sense, I know that the question is basically irrelevant. Hell, most questions we end up asking in our lives usually are! I'm just trying to get a sense for what the "populace" think about it.

And as I said, I'm conflicted on it. My sense of justice and my logic fight over the points.

Consider this a philosophical discussion. It wasn't necessarily triggered by the act you are loosely referring too, but it did remind me that I have intended to pose this question before.

Hell, back in college I used to bribe a buddy in our risk game to focus on my biggest threats and basically roll over and die when his time was up. This arrangement was made without anyone else knowing and before the game. So I'm not saying I'm "Holier then thou" or any such nonsense.

Netto

w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:56:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: w0rmy on 24/07/2005 11:03:18
Originally by: Netto
On one hand, real life governments use spies and whatever nefarious technique they can use to further their agenda's but in the world of EVE, a MMORPG, emphasis on game, are such things fair game?



I do not believe you can compare RL with this.

In the real world, if one becomes a spy, one is a spy, for life, thats it. One does not log off, and log onto a main life, running around unaccountable for the actions of the spy life.

Unlike eve, where so the simple thing of a few $$$$ you can buy yourself, enough lives, to have a character in every major alliance.


If being a spy, meant you were a spy 24/7, had to live your life as the spy, without being caught... but in eve... theres no need and its simply too easy.



So many people complain and whinged about lvl4 agents, and how there was no risk involved in them...

I see there being even far less risk in being an alt spy.

But yet so many are against one, and support the other... Go figure!



My RL income is substancial, and with that, my chances or having an alt character sitting in alliance chat next to you is also substancially increased.


My ability to be a spy in your corp, is not limited by game mechanics, is not limited by employment history, is not limited by who I know or skills points...

Its only limited by my RL income and ability to sign up new accounts.

I dont see that as right...



Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:00:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Hans Roaming on 24/07/2005 11:00:11
Originally by: Netto
Hell, back in college I used to bribe a buddy in our risk game to focus on my biggest threats and basically roll over and die when his time was up.


Victory must have tasted really sweet Rolling Eyes

Netto
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:06:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Hans Roaming
Edited by: Hans Roaming on 24/07/2005 11:00:11
Originally by: Netto
Hell, back in college I used to bribe a buddy in our risk game to focus on my biggest threats and basically roll over and die when his time was up.


Victory must have tasted really sweet Rolling Eyes



At the time, it did. /shrug No accounting for ethics when I was young. Wasn't until I got older I realized what a lame ass I was. Was perfectly rationalized at the time though. Hell, most things can be rationalized with a large enough leap.

And I only compared it to RL because I knew others would, which is why I brought up a counter point to that. I'm not an idiot :). Okay well, I'm not a complete idiot, but just a moderate idiot. How's that sound?

Netto

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:17:00 - [7]
 

I think the question is not if you use sneaky tactics or not but if you use an alt for this. Ppl use them for a certain purpose, may it be corp theft, spying or sabotage, and then simply delete the alt once his job is done, exactly this is whats unfair about it. No risk.. big advantage.

CCP why not reveal the true identity of alts? Only ppl that are going to moan about it are lamers who dont have the balls to do the job themself.

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:25:00 - [8]
 

I wouldn’t care about this subject, and I really don’t, its just that something like this will keep on coming up over and over until something is done, even remotely close to fixing or improving the situation.

The point about RL is completely invalid to base it to the game or compare it.

Simply because the game mechanics can NOT mimic in any way or shape or form the role of a SPY at the moment… (and im sure they wont in the future) the fact that people use regular characters or alts to ACT like a spy in game is just discussing. WHY? Because this is one of the only unofficial (if you like) professions (if you can call that) in game that has no skills no real title or anything remotely close to supporting the role of a SPY. There are no consequences at all, yes you can see maybe the side of rewards as you take and destroy the other side/enemies… BUT you do not suffer ANY form of consequence or cost to your character, as say if you were to be a pirate and attacked someone and got a sec hit and having the risk of getting your ship blown up, or the person retaliating against you.

I mean there is no, training or any flagging or even history, to the person that was a spy… if the game had any kind of flagging or history for characters were through some verification they would get flagged and it would be public information, then ya I would support the idea and the role of a spy, but the person would not like the life of the spy once they are caught, and that is fair compared to what a spy can do, in game or in RL. Maybe even a petition system would work, by petition I mean the flagging or the history/record thing, you can track just about anything in game (at least GM’s can) so I wouldn’t see why this wouldn’t be possible, though a pain IMO.


That is the point and that is the reason why people with some form of Logic would put the game and the spy issue and come to the conclusion that it should be considered as an exploit simply.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:30:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 24/07/2005 11:30:49
Eeerh.

Hit me over the head if I'm wrong but didn't both GHSC and us never even bother to deny that we "did it".

I mean, you probably don't know what I'm on about regarding my covopration, but you do know the GHSC example.

How exactly does that mean that there's no consequence.
The consequences are right there ! waiting for you to come and force them upon the culprit.

Eve is not about having an NPC "police" response to every act not in line with your morality. If you want to force your values upon another, then that's allowed, and up to you.

As far as the skill argument goes. There used to be no trade skills at all. Did that make trading a non-profession ?

Spying isnt a profession, it's a temporary tool you choose if it fits the shoe. Just like a ship, a war, or even a market order.

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:35:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Kunming
I think the question is not if you use sneaky tactics or not but if you use an alt for this. Ppl use them for a certain purpose, may it be corp theft, spying or sabotage, and then simply delete the alt once his job is done, exactly this is whats unfair about it. No risk.. big advantage.

CCP why not reveal the true identity of alts? Only ppl that are going to moan about it are lamers who dont have the balls to do the job themself.


this was talked about for very very long time, the accounts should be tagged to each char, from day 1 of the game, it would have been good, if you dont want that or dont like it simply go and buy another account... i dont know the % of people in eve that have 2nd account but it would probably be pretty high.

and as you have stated and anyone with half a brain could conclude that spy/sabotage /theft in eve just does not work, there are no proper mechanics for risk/reward factor at all... there are NONE

IMO devs should have had a strong stance on this, since they can track just about everything, it wouldnt happen, its a MMO for crying out loud Rolling Eyes
The thought of what one can do with such a gaming flaw is just disturbing and the fact that the dev’s haven’t had a stance on this is just as equally disturbing. In a MMO were you can lose just about everything, they should have had a strong foot hold on this from day one. I want to play a game with some form of structure or rules vs other people or else its worthless, might as well go turn on god mode or cheats its == same in other games. Neutral

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:39:00 - [11]
 

Eeerh, the devs have had a stance on this since day one.

Their stance: it's all part of the game we made. Enjoy or go.


There are no game mechanics required for spying. There are game mechanics available for thieving.

The only issue you identify correctly is that of alts. But then again, all major examples of corp theft were either done by mains or admitted by them right away. That means there is ample consequence for their actions from that moment on. That said consequence is not code but player driven is just what makes eve better then other games.


Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 24/07/2005 11:30:49
Eeerh.

Hit me over the head if I'm wrong but didn't both GHSC and us never even bother to deny that we "did it".

I mean, you probably don't know what I'm on about regarding my covopration, but you do know the GHSC example.

How exactly does that mean that there's no consequence.
The consequences are right there ! waiting for you to come and force them upon the culprit.

Eve is not about having an NPC "police" response to every act not in line with your morality. If you want to force your values upon another, then that's allowed, and up to you.

As far as the skill argument goes. There used to be no trade skills at all. Did that make trading a non-profession ?

Spying isnt a profession, it's a temporary tool you choose if it fits the shoe. Just like a ship, a war, or even a market order.


you fail to see the risk reward factor? dont you? i mean its regardless of the situation, the fact is that you get away with 100% clean, there is nothing compared to such a tactic that can do dmg to a player or corporation or alliance or whatever... NOTHING IN GAME think about that for a moment, ill let it sink into your head, when the day comes and you realize it, then you will see what everyone has for a long time.

and to those people who compare it to other warfare, think about it... the spy puts everything on the line, its a 1 time type of deal for the spy, its all or nothing, if they get caught BOOM, not only do the suffer who knows what but so do there supporters... in eve you can say ya you know who did it... but what does it do? your in a virtual world... you can try and go after them... but the point is there is nothing you can do that would equal what they do....

with that statement, that is == to exploit, as there is nothing that can counter or put any form of consequence...

going after someone or smack talking or giving a bad rep does not require you to sabotage, corp theft, or be a spy...


For the sabotage/corp theft/spy to even come close to risk reward in eve….

Any or all of the following would have to be done…

The account gets flagged, history record is placed on the char/account…
Person gets a -5 sec hit or -10…

Some form of retaliation is set by those victims… maybe some form of temporary war declaration or who knows what…

Those above are some examples…

The point is its hard to even to think for consequences for sabotage/corp theft/spy, just because of the nature of the game… you could lose so much that trying to measure some form of consequence is varies drastically.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.07.24 11:59:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: "Netto"
And as I said, I'm conflicted on it. My sense of justice and my logic fight over the points.


Mine don't. I hate liars and cowards in real life, I hate them in Eve.

If you lie to me in EvE, I will hate you in real life.

Feel free to dislike me for that mentality... I honestly don't care.


Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eeerh, the devs have had a stance on this since day one.

Their stance: it's all part of the game we made. Enjoy or go.


There are no game mechanics required for spying. There are game mechanics available for thieving.

The only issue you identify correctly is that of alts. But then again, all major examples of corp theft were either done by mains or admitted by them right away. That means there is ample consequence for their actions from that moment on. That said consequence is not code but player driven is just what makes eve better then other games.




Ya and im sure they would have loved to put it on the box, “be a spy or sabotage your enemies and steal all that you can” cause massive grie***e and at the only cost! 1 char slot no consequences, watch as your enemies bicker at you, while you safely stay in empire untouched and continue to play your game.

Oh they would have made a killer with that one wouldn’t they?

Im sorry but I doubt that the dev’s would ever publicly admit the statement that such actions as spy/sabotage/thievery are just roles in game and that they are fair with risk/reward mechanics placed (which are none)

The fact remains they have been sweeping this under the rug for long time, trying to avoid any form of firm stance, and if allowing it making sure that it fallows with the rest of the game and risk/reward – consequences etc… are in place at least something, besides the pathetic stance that most take, on that the person admits with there main…

You know why the even bother to admit with the main? Because its so pathetic… because nothing can be done about it because they got away with doing something that did not cause them any risk to there reward at all…

There is no argument at all that whole political talks/slander or debates or propaganda can even count for a consequence… simply because all of those are done on a regular bases, and they hardly cause any form of equality as far as risk/reward goes in GAME/ISK terms AT ALL.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:10:00 - [15]
 

Drutort, if the perpetrator is known, then what exactly is stopping anyone from doing EXACTLY the same amount of damage to him that he did to them ? Hell, you could do even more if you want to.

On top of that, his reputation now includes a notation that he once was involved in theft or spying or whatever.

You can declare war on him, his corp, his family and his dog. You can steal his stamp collection, ships and implants. You can consipre to ruin his reputation and you can conspire to frame him for stealing from his own corp. You can pod him wherever he goes, or can extort him whenever you've got him in a corner.

You have extactly the SAME opportunity to retaliate as he has to damage you.

No, from teh point the perpetrator is known, your possibilities to retaliate are by definition balanced. the only difference left is one of morality and skill.


Now, when the thief or spy is not known, there's another matter. But in general, you know which corporations would have spies in your and which not. So if you find out there must be a spy, you also know whom to relatiate against don't you ?

Sorry, but aside from the fact that one could question the extent to which you can damage a corp in one act, I don't see your point.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:14:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 24/07/2005 12:23:20
Quote:

Ya and im sure they would have loved to put it on the box, “be a spy or sabotage your enemies and steal all that you can” cause massive grie***e and at the only cost! 1 char slot no consequences, watch as your enemies bicker at you, while you safely stay in empire untouched and continue to play your game.

Oh they would have made a killer with that one wouldn’t they?

Im sorry but I doubt that the dev’s would ever publicly admit the statement that such actions as spy/sabotage/thievery are just roles in game and that they are fair with risk/reward mechanics placed (which are none)

The fact remains they have been sweeping this under the rug for long time, trying to avoid any form of firm stance, and if allowing it making sure that it fallows with the rest of the game and risk/reward – consequences etc… are in place at least something, besides the pathetic stance that most take, on that the person admits with there main…

You know why the even bother to admit with the main? Because its so pathetic… because nothing can be done about it because they got away with doing something that did not cause them any risk to there reward at all…

There is no argument at all that whole political talks/slander or debates or propaganda can even count for a consequence… simply because all of those are done on a regular bases, and they hardly cause any form of equality as far as risk/reward goes in GAME/ISK terms AT ALL.




I told you the dev stance. And that is correct. They have actually said that on the forums here some time ago.

Better still, early Eve advertisement (and actually the BOX itself as well yes afaik (i dont have one)), DO advertise the possibility to be a spy. WTF ?:1?1 Yes, you read it right.

Anything I can do to you in eve you can do to me. That means you can always retaliate as long as you know who I am.

That, is called the consequence of my actions.

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:35:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Drutort, if the perpetrator is known, then what exactly is stopping anyone from doing EXACTLY the same amount of damage to him that he did to them ? Hell, you could do even more if you want to.


same dmg? what are you talking about if someone cleaned the house with the acts of spy or whatever... who in there right mind would even want to bother playing the game? that is a total nuke so to speak...

Quote:
On top of that, his reputation now includes a notation that he once was involved in theft or spying or whatever.


how does "his reputation" even compare to what is done in game? you can do whatever you like to any bodies reputation... again this isnt a consequence from that action, it doesnt even have any game action at all...

Quote:
You can declare war on him, his corp, his family and his dog. You can steal his stamp collection, ships and implants. You can consipre to ruin his reputation and you can conspire to frame him for stealing from his own corp. You can pod him wherever he goes, or can extort him whenever you've got him in a corner.


again you can do this regardless this is not something that is a consequence or a cause effect of that action...

Quote:

You have extactly the SAME opportunity to retaliate as he has to damage you.

no not really can you go into his corp and then do the same what he has done? only if they are brain dead... again no game mechanics...

Quote:

No, from teh point the perpetrator is known, your possibilities to retaliate are by definition balanced. the only difference left is one of morality and skill.


Now, when the thief or spy is not known, there's another matter. But in general, you know which corporations would have spies in your and which not. So if you find out there must be a spy, you also know whom to relatiate against don't you ?


there is no balance, there is no way for you to really go and pursue such action as if you would with other game mechanics... simple as that... you can not do so.. you might get lucky but i doubt it that you could come close...

as i have stated above there are no mechanics in game for this... what you have pointed out are just game mechanics in general they are not cause and effect... for example you fire on someone in empire you get sec hit and concord blows up your ship...

you stating that you can do the same thing what they did is so broad and general that its not even valid to point out at all.


Your right you don’t get it… when you mess with people and not game mechanics, that’s were things hit the fan… when you act on such an act in RL there are major consequences… when you do so behind a video game there is hardly anything that can be done… you do not see what would happen if everyone did take this action in EVE, this game would die very fast theoretically speaking VERY FAST, if you destroy the ability for people to play the game for the first reason…
And that is to have fun/socialize etc… then the game is destroyed. I don’t know what you would do if someone that you knew for a while online did something to those lines to you or your corp or your alliance or whatever… just think about it… it could be even someone very trustworthy that just walks off with stuff… what would be your reaction??

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:41:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 24/07/2005 12:42:11
No, you're off the mark here.

Eve is nto about protective mechanics, it's about your initiative.

YOU decide what cause has what effect by simple tying that effect to the cause in the way you like it. CCP gives you the freedom to do so, all you need to do is take it.

If they could steal from you, yet you not from them, does that not make them the correct winner ?

As I alreeady said, you can argeuie about the hwo much damage you can do in a single stroke using these possibilities. And you can conclude its too easy to do too much damage. That is a valid point of discussion.

There is however no argument for introducing something silly like security hits for these actions. the consequences is YOURS to decide on, and the action is yours to take. That is what Eve has always been about, concord and the sec system are just neccesary infingements on that.

w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2005.07.24 13:58:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: w0rmy on 24/07/2005 13:59:20
Originally by: Rod Blaine

Eve is nto about protective mechanics, it's about your initiative.



Unfortunately being a spy in an alliance requires little initiative and no risk.

It just requires the ability to purchase a second account/create an alt, and in most cases, a disposible one at that.



GHSC may be an exception to that rule, but you know as well as anyone else, 99% of spys are second accounts or alts.


HDCamper Itsim
Posted - 2005.07.24 16:09:00 - [20]
 

The game is balanced in favor of those with no morales.

It obviously needs a nerf.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.24 17:26:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Drutort, if the perpetrator is known, then what exactly is stopping anyone from doing EXACTLY the same amount of damage to him that he did to them ? Hell, you could do even more if you want to.

On top of that, his reputation now includes a notation that he once was involved in theft or spying or whatever.

You can declare war on him, his corp, his family and his dog. You can steal his stamp collection, ships and implants. You can consipre to ruin his reputation and you can conspire to frame him for stealing from his own corp. You can pod him wherever he goes, or can extort him whenever you've got him in a corner.

You have extactly the SAME opportunity to retaliate as he has to damage you.

No, from teh point the perpetrator is known, your possibilities to retaliate are by definition balanced. the only difference left is one of morality and skill.


Now, when the thief or spy is not known, there's another matter. But in general, you know which corporations would have spies in your and which not. So if you find out there must be a spy, you also know whom to relatiate against don't you ?

Sorry, but aside from the fact that one could question the extent to which you can damage a corp in one act, I don't see your point.


you must be joking right? It's most likely someones alt. They move said alt to npc corp. and you get to do? What about it. Notta nothin.
Do other people know who this person is? probably not most people don't read the forums and most that do dont read all the forums. and even the select few that do probably wont remember the guys name a month later. And unless your going to inform every new corp ceo he goes to about his past. (of which most likely boarders on harrasment) he is still free to continue on.

To the orig topic I think it is lame. And a show of poor character in real life. All sports are a game all gambling a game, playing games with your children friends whoever if you were face to face with the person you were cheeting in the game on most wouldn't but behind a mil miles of wire people are free to explore all the things that they don't do that they would like to do in person.

Hilabana
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.24 17:34:00 - [22]
 

Sorry to say this kidys but i have always use ALT's to get back at corps that had mess with the corps we had and it work just fine.

It is just like the very big corps that use a ALT's when there corps are at war to mine ore or do missions to make money to keep the war from hurting there corp.

And yes to spy on corps.

The players will be shock just to see how many players have more then one account and more then one computer just to do things like this.

so get over it there is not any thing new about this at all!

Atandros
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2005.07.24 17:41:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Atandros on 24/07/2005 17:41:55
If the GMs do not punish you and do not reimburse the victims, it's part of the game. CCP had the opportunity to do something, but they decided not to interfere, meaning they sanction it as part of the game. End of story.
And, an addendum: everything in this game is morally neutral. Everything. Because morality is concerned with values, and nothing in this game has any value as such - ISK, ships, items, they're all just fictional database items used to facilitate gameplay. So if, oh, say, someone were to eliminate your POS via infiltration, that would be identical to them bringing 1394120121259201 battleships and blasting it out of space. Because both are perfectly within the rules.

It's only a game.

(and if everyone adopted this viewpoint, it's my humble opinion that we'd have an infinitely better game...Wink)

Hilabana
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:01:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Atandros
Edited by: Atandros on 24/07/2005 17:41:55
If the GMs do not punish you and do not reimburse the victims, it's part of the game. CCP had the opportunity to do something, but they decided not to interfere, meaning they sanction it as part of the game. End of story.
And, an addendum: everything in this game is morally neutral. Everything. Because morality is concerned with values, and nothing in this game has any value as such - ISK, ships, items, they're all just fictional database items used to facilitate gameplay. So if, oh, say, someone were to eliminate your POS via infiltration, that would be identical to them bringing 1394120121259201 battleships and blasting it out of space. Because both are perfectly within the rules.

It's only a game.

(and if everyone adopted this viewpoint, it's my humble opinion that we'd have an infinitely better game...Wink)


Makes a note of Jericho Fraction he he he he he

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:49:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Atandros
Edited by: Atandros on 24/07/2005 17:41:55
If the GMs do not punish you and do not reimburse the victims, it's part of the game. CCP had the opportunity to do something, but they decided not to interfere, meaning they sanction it as part of the game. End of story.
And, an addendum: everything in this game is morally neutral. Everything. Because morality is concerned with values, and nothing in this game has any value as such - ISK, ships, items, they're all just fictional database items used to facilitate gameplay. So if, oh, say, someone were to eliminate your POS via infiltration, that would be identical to them bringing 1394120121259201 battleships and blasting it out of space. Because both are perfectly within the rules.

It's only a game.

(and if everyone adopted this viewpoint, it's my humble opinion that we'd have an infinitely better game...Wink)


If everyone adopted your view we would have an infinitely empty game. People start playing eve cause of various reasons. They stay with the game because they make friends. Under your own discription you have no problem screwing over any friend you can make at the first chance you can get. Why? it's within the rules ain't it? There is nothing wrong with it is there? No reason not to.

Tekran
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 20:59:00 - [26]
 

not screwing folks over just because you Can is your Personal morality and such. thats why I dont steal from my corp just because I could. (probably, maybe) thats My choices and My morals, and I sure as smeg dont want CCP tome come in with some kind of artificial accountability system because your unhappy. plus, what about RP? this is Also an RPG, so players can have a very Different life on different avatars. thats not for everyone else to know about.

and who "gives the keys" to some newly joined nub? just because you can Get into a corp dosnt mean you can get out with anything more. the people with those access (directors and such) are often their from the beginning, or are long time friends of the CEO.

you cant just join a corp via alt, go back to your "normal" life then come back in a few weeks to find all the corp assets tucked away in your alt account.
plus, many recruiters want screens of your charry selection page to have a look at just how many chracters they are hiring. if they slip up and let in an alt of an enemy.. too bad.

Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.07.24 21:10:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 24/07/2005 21:18:42

Originally by: netto
This is a game of skill/time where you're pit against other players for whatever reasons, should victory or defeat be won with guns/in game politics, and other such means, or should the group of players that have lied and schemed to get characters in an enemy corp/alliance be heralded as victors?


Eve is a unique animal. Unlike many other games in the genre, it presents us with combat environment that is very open-ended and multilateral. Where is the major difference between political actions and infiltration? Where is there a difference between victory in fleet engagement and inability to mount one due to tactical asset relocation. Infiltration, robbery, manipulation of trust.. all of these are in-game actions no less valid than activating that heavy nosferatu on an unprepared interceptor.

And is it good for the game? Why, absolutely.

MMORPGs are popping up faster than you can say "NCsoft" The days when companies thought of cornering the entire market are a thing of the past, though blizzard has admittedly put up a very valiant fight with its WoW. Right now its all about niche markets and variety. Where other mmorpgs typically offer a very restrained experience, where player's behaviour is viewed more like that of a paying customer in the company's sandbox, eve actually offers real freedom to behave however nobly or ..well, dastardly you deem fit. Typically, esoteric operations are something that takes up a lot of time, dedication and works on a level entirely different than combat, but it is still a deserving part of the gameplay accessible to those willing and able to do it, as they should remain.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.07.24 21:12:00 - [28]
 

Spying sabotage and infiltration are real tools of warfare both in real life and in this game. Even if you could put in game mechanics that stop others from abusing your trust, there is no guarantee that the creators of this game would want to.

It would just result in a game of who can form the biggest fleet, not the game where smart people can outplay dozens of less-intelligent peons. This applies to any profession in EVE too.

You might not like it, you'd probably hate to get hit by it, but there is no reason why you shouldn't expect it. Its a key selling point of the game, and shows up a bunch of times in the fiction.

Anyone who acts "surprised" by things like this is either new to the game and joined just because of the pretty screenshots, or a liar who is trying to kid themselves into believing that CCP is helping the bad guys win. In most cases its the latter.

CCP has a stance, and its not to get involved in player content.

My two cents anyways. *huggles his personal assets tightly*

Netto
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
NxT LeveL
Posted - 2005.07.24 21:36:00 - [29]
 

Interesting discussion, as I hoped. I'd like to steer the thread away from any particular incident as there are plenty of threads on that subject =\.

Netto

Uuve Savisaalo
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2005.07.24 21:41:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Uuve Savisaalo on 24/07/2005 21:43:09
Originally by: Drutort
I mean there is no, training or any flagging or even history, to the person that was a spy… if the game had any kind of flagging or history for characters were through some verification they would get flagged and it would be public information, then ya I would support the idea and the role of a spy


The most significant heist in the game was performed with a character who had 'the guiding hand social club' as the last entry in his employment history -- an organisation that had always been fairly well known for murder, robbery, extortion and all sorts of similar debauchery.

As the final justification for robbery, I have to paraphrase the great circuis impressario P.T. Barnum, in that there's a sucker being born every minute. And they're waiting to be had.



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