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Kanatach
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.07.24 16:29:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad




It's not a questionof hving cake sooner, you completely missed the point! It's about having a chance to get any cake at all in relation to the older players.

The way things are now, there is a class difference between the oldest players and the newest. This gap will *never* close with the way the current system is set up. There is no way to catch up unless the oldest players go on 24 months of holiday with no ingame development. Not gonna happen. This may be ok with you, and I dont mind that much since I can enjoy the game anyway, but the elite position in this game is out of reach of all players joining now as long as older players stick to the game.

And calling people stupid for not joining at release??? God, how old are you? That is possibly the stupidest comment I have yet to read on any mmorpg forum... downright abusive... I never heard of eve until it had been in the market for 18+ months.

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 17:05:00 - [32]
 

Having the cake sooner, not having the cake sooner *sighs*

HOW should CCP do it then?, stop attacking eachothers post and come with ideas on how to do it instead Neutral

I do not have a clue of how CCP should solve this problem, i can only give help and tips for the new players in the game and boost them to continue eventhough it seems like this gap is enormouse.

My first post was a small try to maybe put some kind of hope into newer players. Maybe helped someone maybe not? If it did im happy Smile

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 17:32:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Missy Meatshield
Edited by: Missy Meatshield on 10/07/2005 16:18:09
Edited by: Missy Meatshield on 10/07/2005 16:16:12


DO NOT GIVE UP!!... They will eventually release Booster Drugs that will make your attributes crazy high and let the younger playes gain a bit of ground on the older players. They wont be released for maybe a year or two or maybe three. But hang in there and specialize and when the devs feel it is time they will allow many of the newer players to advance a bit faster.

It has already happened with advanced learning skills and +4 implants.... NONE of this was available back when poeple played in Beta or when teh game first launched.

So that means someone who gets a subscription RIGHT NOW can actually learn things faster than someone who had an account 2 years ago!!!!. It will only get better for newer players in the future.

Also dont bash the "Hierarchy" of EVE and be bitter.... Their MUST be a hierarchy in EVE... you know why?... because games like SWG where everyone can become a master in 3 months and accomplish everything in the game so soon fall apart and turn into sh!t.

With the hierarchy in EVE it is possible to have meaniningful corporations as the Directors and Founders are very rich and old and wise and have the resources to fund the newer players who are fresh inexperienced recruits with fewer skills. Without a true hierarchy the game could not have different ranks within a corporation military. YOu wouldnt have Officers or fleet commanders or different tiers.....everyone would be the same and that would cause everyone to go out and be solo which would ruin the game. The hierarchy causes dependance on other players and thats what makes this game so fabulous. Its just like the real world.

Not only that but you will enjoy the veterancy that EVE will give YOU. More noobs join teh game everyday... so a year or two years from now there will be people younger with less skills than YOU. So you can actually feel like you are a "veteran" and those newer players will look up to you like you look up to the people older than you. This is a wonderful part of EVE and dont look at it as something bad where you want to quit the game. That is the wrong attitude.


I took this from another thread in here about rookies vs Vets ... i find this writer to be spot on, i could not even come close to writing it better.

You have doubts about continuing after your free trail? Read this thread Yes, you do wanna continue after the free trail !!

Missy i hope you dont mind me moving your reply to this thread .. i just felt it needed to shine its light in here aswell Cool

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Northen Light
Having the cake sooner, not having the cake sooner *sighs*

HOW should CCP do it then?, stop attacking eachothers post and come with ideas on how to do it instead Neutral

I do not have a clue of how CCP should solve this problem, i can only give help and tips for the new players in the game and boost them to continue eventhough it seems like this gap is enormouse.

My first post was a small try to maybe put some kind of hope into newer players. Maybe helped someone maybe not? If it did im happy Smile


Aye, karma. And I agree about a lot of things. The game *is* fun, the best thing since sliced bread - its totally worth it. Keep that in mind when reading my comments – I’m musing here and having a discussion…nothing else.

I've participated in a few threads over in crime and punishment. One of the things the pirates say is that "we are all competing with one another". So a miner competes for his or her roids, a trader competes to move products, etc. Pvping in the combat sense is only a part of it.

Well I agree. I don't have the "you vs the world" mentality exactly, but we all compete for resources in the form of commodities - be it ships, trade goods, minerals, whatever. Its important to remember this skill point discussion isn't only about who has tech II bonuses to their ships. For producers, traders, and the like – market share makes more sense.

Entrepreneurs are an individualistic lot. They want to build their own corporations, and their own lot without being an employee for other people. Small businesses have driven innovation since before double entry came along, so it behooves us to encourage them. Specializing makes this difficult, and specialization is how you stand to a beta era player.

The issue is that both the market system and the skill system have is that it stifles the independent contractor and makes the establishment fat. A very good example of this is freighters. Keep an eye on the battleship market in the hubs for the next six weeks to see what I mean.

Drops in prices of ships, munitions, arms, and mining equipment do what? They provide incentive to new players to enter the “gatherer” roles.

Now what does this have to do with skill disparity between new players and beta era players? It says to them: choose. Be a corporate gofer/gatherer (fighter pilot, hauler, miner), or scratch your way into economic viability and compete with your pocket book. The latter is very difficult indeed for the newcomer, as it takes seed capital to swim the markets with comparable scale to the others.

This all makes sense – but just as in the real world you have to provide at least limited subsidies to the small business sector and introduce anti-oligopoly/monopoly measures. Skill points become a target, as are corporate taxes.

Another idea is for people get progressively less and less skill points, down to none when in empire space…and have higher security buy/sell order cost more points. I say do it this way rather than the opposite because we don’t want to give bonuses to alliance members, we want to get vets out of empire space and allow the noobs to be noobs. Things like freighters give alliances access to high sec markets, but the noob must join an alliance to be able to say the same in reverse.

Move the vets away from the noobs and the noobs skillpoints have more value to them.

Anyhow – enough ramblings for now. Cheers!

Pick Me
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:31:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

I don't agree with this at all - I think perhaps its more the mountain of difference which is impossible to surmount which gives a lot of the new folks pause.


There is no mountain of difference, take them one or two months to train for bs if they want too, or anything else. Sure they cannot fly interceptors and HAC and battleship and titan on the first month but may I remind you that when the 'vets' started, they had no ideas what would be good or not? So many of them trained for all race battleship for nothing?
Quote:

You said it yourself - these new tools are available to all players, not just the new players. The gap widens as the issue is cumulative.


It does'nt widen because everyone have them now, so the gap stay the same. What I meant is that for the first months, there was no implants and for the first year and half, there was no advance learning. So everyone had lower attribute than what the newbee have now. So they go up faster, anyway you put it.
Quote:

Which will be cost prohibitive to the very players that need it, the new ones. Scraping together a money for a battleship or two trumps spending half a billion on implants - the upper ends are for a select few.


Well, maybe you should calculate the difference between a +2 and a +3 implant.
Quote:

And I'm not advocating a change, merely trying to clarify the issue at hand.

No problem, I like clarification...

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:46:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Caeden Nicomachean on 24/07/2005 18:47:49
Quote:

There is no mountain of difference, take them one or two months to train for bs if they want too, or anything else. Sure they cannot fly interceptors and HAC and battleship and titan on the first month but may I remind you that when the 'vets' started, they had no ideas what would be good or not? So many of them trained for all race battleship for nothing?



The advanced learning skills to IV will take what, around two months yes? If you get into a battleship two months after that you are still a noob with it. Nothing wrong with that, but this "in two months you can be equal to a beta tester" sort of assertion isn't viable. As for nerfing the flavors of the month - new players are immune to this how exactly? I mean, Tempests, Ravens - it happens constantly.

Quote:

It does'nt widen because everyone have them now, so the gap stay the same. What I meant is that for the first months, there was no implants and for the first year and half, there was no advance learning. So everyone had lower attribute than what the newbee have now. So they go up faster, anyway you put it.

Which will be cost prohibitive to the very players that need it, the new ones. Scraping together a money for a battleship or two trumps spending half a billion on implants - the upper ends are for a select few.

Well, maybe you should calculate the difference between a +2 and a +3 implant.



Exactly. +3, +4, and +5 make a very big difference. And are only affordable by veterans or economic type characters. The latter are going to use the money to build more capital so they can afford it on the margin...this seems a bit obvious to me. Ergo, as the vets have access to the same learning skills the noobs do - the gap widens.

Quote:

And I'm not advocating a change, merely trying to clarify the issue at hand.

No problem, I like clarification...


Mmmhmmm Cool

Edit: quotes

Pick Me
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:47:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Caelian

If there's one thing I hate it's people who put their heads in the sand and pretend there are no problems. Not to mention the whine of 'I paid more WAWAAAA'.


It's not that at all, it's that the current system is for the lack of a better word, perfect. You don't expect us to defend it?
Quote:

The skill system should be modified to allow a newer player to catch up somewhat quicker. Maybe give new players 1 or 2 basic learning skills already at 4 or 5, 'declassify' a set of skills since they have been around the beginning of time, making each level of those purchaseable (against higher amounts of ISK per level) etc.

No disrespect here but are you nuts?

You want two learning skill at 5? Do you realise how long it take for everybody to get that done? The weeks that are lost for a better future?

Now you want that given to people pretexting they were there late? Sorry, the answer is NO.

Yes the vets (and anybody that trained them, including newbees) won't find that suggestion meaningful. Why don't they do it too? Like the first weeks in the army, not pleasing but you have to do them...

That's exactly the kind of suggestion a $ making machine would do, anybody else loving the game would just find the learning time worth it in the end.

Pick Me
Posted - 2005.07.24 18:55:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Darlan Flame
What are we telling new players? Start now, play two months later?

That's the most common misconception.

Train the basic learnings to 3 at first, then play, fit one or two at 4, then train something else to play and have fun. Then you train to 5 the mem one, go to Eidic to 3 or 4 if you wish, other stuff to have fun, then the rest, slowly.

No need to sit for 2 months idles (I take less than that btw, I did it with no implants. Just start with Memory than Int first and Eidic and Logic help with getting the other basic to 5 anyway.

Problem is you try to grind, you want more SP than other. That's not the goal. You don't need a lot of SP to be good at anything. You need ISK to fit properly. You are not good in eve because you have more SP or more ISK. You are good because you are respected for trust on trade or deal OR because you are feared and/or honored in fights. Having 20 mil SP won't make you win against other in fights. It's not a level 60 always win against a level 20.

When you understand that, your spirit is out of the cage...

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 19:02:00 - [39]
 

Quote:

No disrespect here but are you nuts?

You want two learning skill at 5? Do you realise how long it take for everybody to get that done? The weeks that are lost for a better future?

Now you want that given to people pretexting they were there late? Sorry, the answer is NO.

Yes the vets (and anybody that trained them, including newbees) won't find that suggestion meaningful. Why don't they do it too? Like the first weeks in the army, not pleasing but you have to do them...

That's exactly the kind of suggestion a $ making machine would do, anybody else loving the game would just find the learning time worth it in the end.


I have all of the advanced learning trained. I find it one viable choice, but as that skill is available to all chracters I'd prefer other alternatives. Raising skillpoints is only part of the issue.

The idea that people who want to encourage new players are training toons for money is insulting I must say Confused Look through this thread and see how often the veterans attack the person, directly or indirectly - but do not address any of the issues with any sort of subtance.

And I served in the army. If there were no cap to ranks, it wouldn't function Very Happy

Pick Me
Posted - 2005.07.24 19:06:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: subvert
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.Evil or Very Mad


Just to comment on this par also, this is another thing many vets spew out.. but it really isn't right. The only thing it proves is that newer players are forced into a single aspect of eve gameplay, and they will still be less useful in that aspect.


They are not forced, the options are clear now. Not just training Electronic Warfare 5 without knowing what it will give later on.
Quote:

The ability to run a corp, lead your gang, fly a bunch of ships, mine your own materials, refine for greater profit, trade in an entire regeon, AND be an ace combat pilot in a few of those ****s is worth a lot. So what if you're sitting in a mega, and only so-so % of your SP count towards the mega. You don't think newer players need other skills? You have a choice to hop into a few BSs, a couple cepters maybe, HAC, cruiser, AF, maybe covert ops. This is called versatility and it also makes the game more fun for you. Doing 1 single thing the entire time in EVE would be boring, and it is boring. You use various skills all the time.. your SPs aren't 'wated.'


How long does it take to get to level 4 in every skills that might interest them?
Quote:

Saying that newer players should 'specialize' is just a nice way of saying that they should only be allowed to do one very certain thing in the game... and lets face it, with your multiple lvl5 skills you're skill going to wreck them.

That's wrong, you realise that the only difference between a player with level 5 everywhere compare to someone with level 4 everywhere is 5% at best? Now you are going to tell me that they will lose with 5% advantage every single time?

Nothing compare to leveling in other games.

Pick Me
Posted - 2005.07.24 19:25:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
Quote:

No disrespect here but are you nuts?

You want two learning skill at 5? Do you realise how long it take for everybody to get that done? The weeks that are lost for a better future?

Now you want that given to people pretexting they were there late? Sorry, the answer is NO.

Yes the vets (and anybody that trained them, including newbees) won't find that suggestion meaningful. Why don't they do it too? Like the first weeks in the army, not pleasing but you have to do them...

That's exactly the kind of suggestion a $ making machine would do, anybody else loving the game would just find the learning time worth it in the end.


I have all of the advanced learning trained. I find it one viable choice, but as that skill is available to all chracters I'd prefer other alternatives. Raising skillpoints is only part of the issue.

The idea that people who want to encourage new players are training toons for money is insulting I must say Confused Look through this thread and see how often the veterans attack the person, directly or indirectly - but do not address any of the issues with any sort of subtance.

And I served in the army. If there were no cap to ranks, it wouldn't function Very Happy

Sorry about that, it was directed at thoses that are training characters, they know who they are and get angry everytime and I like to make them angry, does'nt take a lot of energy from my side. Very Happy

But you should see that with the numbers of threads spawning about helping completely new characters (instead of 6 months old for example) every single weeks when it's not cross posted in every forum is really getting annoying.

It lead to stuff like our poor MaiLina KaTar up here. At some point you kinda lose it. Theses threads are almost always started by alts with no experience that seem to want a quick speed or cheat button.

As I fail to see any good reason why someone should train faster than any other (since it's always at most 5% bonus). As I said, having more SP mean nothing and all big SP industrialist cannot fly more ships than a 2 months newbee, except maybe a barge.

What I find insulting is the fact that a newbee in a first tier frigate can lockdown any bs if he is lucky, now that is very insulting. Confused

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 19:35:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Caeden Nicomachean on 24/07/2005 19:36:33
Quote:

They are not forced, the options are clear now. Not just training Electronic Warfare 5 without knowing what it will give later on.



Aye. We all know what most of the things in the game do now. Still though, the new player is subject to issues like the Raven...and there are likely just as many folks today with 8 cha as there are beta testers Laughing


Quote:

How long does it take to get to level 4 in every skills that might interest them?



There is a tool over at eve-i you should take a look at. Here is a for example. Say someone likes covert ops scouting. Seems a lot less skill intensive than lets say a battleship, or production and can fill a nice role in a fleet or smuggling operation.

Time to get the skills to get into one? Three months, start to finish (using the tool on eve-i, which is accurate) - if the advanced learning skills to III are mixed in as the person is coming up (so as to get tackling skills quickly to give the person something to do).

That is with not a single solitary other skill learned - 90 days to get into the ship. Not an ounce of mining, trade, mechanic, etc. So the reality is more like 120 days.

Is that too much? I don't know. But again this "hop online and be equal to a beta tester in two months" sort of thing isn't how it works. It helps a LOT to join a corp and have assistance, assuredly. Problem is you are pretty much forced to, because if the character had to buy their OWN Cheetah, you can bet this 120 days gets pushed to more like 150.

Quote:

That's wrong, you realise that the only difference between a player with level 5 everywhere compare to someone with level 4 everywhere is 5% at best? Now you are going to tell me that they will lose with 5% advantage every single time?

Nothing compare to leveling in other games.


5%? You can't tell me you haven't taken a gander at T2 items and their cumulative bonuses. Level5 giving 5% is like sayign learning the first learning skills to 5 gives 1 point...when we both know the next three attribute points come in less than 24 hours.

Open up the item database and gander at 1400IIs, the weapon of choice for a Min Temp. Time to train - 4 months or so. Damage difference? Immense. Scouts instead? Cost prohibitive. 720IIs a better comparison perhaps, 1400s a vet commodity. Dandy. Still a whole, LOT, more than 5% - and you know it.

Edit: more quote stuff
Wink

TimeKeepr
No Quarter.
C0VEN
Posted - 2005.07.24 21:48:00 - [43]
 

ah another skill "catch-up" related discussion...well i just said this in another thread, and ill say it again here. some other posters have said things similar to my argument, so ill give my interpretation...

NEW PLAYERS CAN CATCH UP

i have 31M sp, but when i fly a sacrilege, im hardly making use of all 31M sp. if i was to engage someone in battle with a sacrilege, would my opponent care that i have 8M in gunnery (i dont use turrets on a sacrilege)? 650k in industry? 1.8M in learning? 830k in science? 4M in spaceship command skills that are useless to a sacrilege?

so you see, if someone were to fight me in a sacrilege, that person would be fighting against 15M sp at the most...that other 15M has no effect on the fight.

additionally, skill training isnt unlimited. once you train race frig skill to 5...thats as far as you can take that. another player can catch up to that other player's lvl 5 in race frig. eventually, you run out of skills to train to make you more effective in combat for a certain ship. once you run out (or come really close to running out) any other player will simply catch up to your effectiveness if hes training the same skills you are using in flying that ship.

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 22:42:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: TimeKeepr
ah another skill "catch-up" related discussion...well i just said this in another thread, and ill say it again here. some other posters have said things similar to my argument, so ill give my interpretation...

NEW PLAYERS CAN CATCH UP

i have 31M sp, but when i fly a sacrilege, im hardly making use of all 31M sp. if i was to engage someone in battle with a sacrilege, would my opponent care that i have 8M in gunnery (i dont use turrets on a sacrilege)? 650k in industry? 1.8M in learning? 830k in science? 4M in spaceship command skills that are useless to a sacrilege?

so you see, if someone were to fight me in a sacrilege, that person would be fighting against 15M sp at the most...that other 15M has no effect on the fight.

additionally, skill training isnt unlimited. once you train race frig skill to 5...thats as far as you can take that. another player can catch up to that other player's lvl 5 in race frig. eventually, you run out of skills to train to make you more effective in combat for a certain ship. once you run out (or come really close to running out) any other player will simply catch up to your effectiveness if hes training the same skills you are using in flying that ship.


And a very good argument it is.

The thing is though, you use a Sacrilege for pvp? Complexes perhaps?

The 8M in gunnery is for fighting/npcing/missions - a very viable source of ISK income. Represents about six months...and any L4 mission runner is going to need to spend that in either gunnery or missles or a combo.

The 1.8 million in learning is basically required for any new player.

Half a month or so of industry represents being able to mine a smidge (650k in industry).

A million in science, throw down in the T2 lottery.

The spaceship command skills, can definitely get by on half that (2 months).

I absolutely agree that a new player can be viable...but as I said about a similar argument, its difficult to say "new characters can simply ultra specialize" because to do that you HAVE to either join a corp or have multiple accounts.

Its for these reasons I look to other solutions than SP bonuses and look to small corp stimulus idears. Get the 31M SP folks out of empire.

HUGO DRAX
Aliastra
Posted - 2005.07.24 23:02:00 - [45]
 

I am a 4 1/2 month old char and I can do plenty in the game. I mainly fly thorax/incursus and still have not trained adv skills yet. I am pretty self-sufficient as a independent player yet I have fun interacting with the other players in my NPC corp and other players I have made friends with as I travelled the systems. I even survived a gank attempt at my thorax by two older players.

Sent in my 1 year payment this week in full.

Rick Dentill
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2005.07.25 10:24:00 - [46]
 

I am thinking that it is all to do with development. I have a little over 3million skill points. however this does not make me 10 times better than someone with 300k sps, nor 10x worse than a 30mill. It is far more important to consider specialisation.

I joined a corp and esentially being a maleable fellow with new things ended up being semi forced down the indie route. if we compare the precentages of my skill points:

50% are in industrial skills, e.g. PE level 5, refining and such.

18% are spaceship command e.g. cal to cruiser 3 + cal indie 3, gal to battleship 2 etc. As you can see I have followed two of the ship tech trees.

18% are learning. (yeah i need to do more!)

10% gunnery = this is very recent was about 12k before!

the other groupings are too small for a monday morning to calculate percentahes.

As you can see my main specialisation is in industrial skills. Now some one with half my skill points could fly the ships I fly and shoot their guns alot better than me. So more is not necessarily good.

Conversely I have seen several "for sale" characters with much higher sps who have only mining 4 and a couple of refining levels.

In essence it is all relative. I am slowly working on my combat skills but there are undoubtadly characters out there with fewer skills who could wipe the floor with me!Smile

Narial Thrikill
Posted - 2005.08.01 21:26:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Darlan Flame


What are we telling new players? Start now, play two months later?


bingo.

i am a new player. started 7 days ago.

i am in a corp already. it's a corp that spans several mmorpg's.

i have 12 years experience in muds, including the very mud everquest is based on, and near 8 years in mmorpg's starting with meridian 59.

however i've never come across a game taht is so incredibly slow to advance in, after being out for 2 years already. a game that requires you to either spend 2 months getting your attributes up with skills (praying you knew in the first place that a 4 int and 4 mem would mean 24 days to train spatial from 4 to 5...thanks for that LACK OF INFORMATION), or just accepting the fact that it's going to take you 1 day 4 hours to train to frigates 3 so you can get out of that newbie ship and do pirate hunting outside of the green deadspace areas in the newbie zone.

1 day. neglecting all the other skills you NEED in gunnery to be a combat character.

yeah, sure, mining is easy and cheap. it's also god awfully boring. crafting in generanl in mmorpg's is extremely boring for all but a few who enjoy such things.

i decided - after taking my thrasher into a 2/10 drone deadspace area and being torn to shreds at 20km by a dismantler drone - that i wanted to get to cruisers. so since friday i've been training frigage IV (2 days 5 hours, with perception 15 and willpower 12 on a 7 day old char) then cruiser 1-3 (another 29 hours) before i can get the cruiser, let alone the time it's going to take to work on the skills required for all ships to even properly outfit them to survive.

funny how none of the ships in thsi game have enough power or cpu to handle the weapons and items that they give you bonuses for, requiring you to get a lot of engineering and electonics. yet when i was downloading the game and researching i read that you want heavy perception and willpower for a combat char - which i wanted to be. i didnt know that my starting int and mem of 4 would cripple me in these key skill advancements. 4 hours to go from engineering 1 to 2.

these are things i didnt know in making my character, and i would have fixed my 4 int, 4 mem at creation had i known. now after 7 days of continous play i'm not willing to start over - especially since i cant delete this toon and reuse the name for 10 FREAKIN HOURS!! (c'mon folks, take a lesson from everquest - punishing your players is a no-no)


even browsing these boards now i find no real useful information for new players that dont say get and train all your learning skills first.

in order for that to NOT take a full 2 months or more (4 int and 4 mem = 24 days to train the first tier of learning skills from 4-5...each) you need to start a char with a high mem and high int.

this is simply bad game design. i'm giving the game 2 months to see how things work out. but dont kid yourselves those of you who have been here a year or more - just because you survived doesnt mean it's right.

Aotearorian
Posted - 2005.08.03 08:11:00 - [48]
 

I can only describe my feeling, as a new player just of my trial account.

I have 420 sp, from them 260 are from learning skills and I am still training one to L 4.

I am sitting in frig/destroyers doing L 2 missions.
I am making reasonably money, about 250K/hour with luck.

Now, I am a bit bored with L 2 missions and want to try L 3, but for that I need cruiser that cost 5-9mil ISK + skills to fly it.

How can I make money to be able to buy and loose cruiser?
I have choice, fly 9/0.25= 36 hours play time of L 2 missions or find some more profitable activity.

Well, I look on mining and got mining to L 4 for T2 mining lasers, but on frig or destroyer I can have max 2 T2 Mining lasers. So, I need to get cruiser just to be able to fit and use 4 mining lasers. Now, if I mine I need hailer to hail my ore. Ok, I got L 1 industrial skill. Ok, Now I can mine ore and sell it. Refining not an option with my
Skills. So, L 1 industrial can not carry that mach, so, I can sell ore only in system I mine it. That pretty mach limiting my choices to systems where some one paying good price for ore I can mine there.
But I want to train my skills with the same speed as older players. So, what should I do, do L 2 missions for next 3-4 month and pay for advance learning skills (10Mil ISK each) (if one wander why that long, I have very low int/memory, I wanted to be a fighter or try to train some mining skills and cruiser and industrial skills to make reasonable money.
Second option is to train money making skills and spend next 3-4 month making money why do not having any fan, because I would not be able to use this cruiser in fight and fall behind older players even more?
Third option is to continue to train combat skills for cruiser in time of making money
To start to have some fun in L 3 missions, but that mean no learning skills.

Implants? I got from my agents +1 charisma and + 2 perception. Market implants are out of my league. Oh, and even to use this 2 implants I needed to train useless sci and cybernetics skills.
I do not see mach options to have fun! I can not improve my useful skills because I need to train learning skills.

High Angel
Posted - 2005.08.03 09:26:00 - [49]
 

As another new player I do see such a big problem. And no it is not me playing devil's advocate.

I make about 500k isk per hour running level 1 missions, not sure how you only get 250k per hour at level 2 missions, and have managed to buy a cruiser already and am just waiting for a few more skills to increase.

I asked lots of questions in help channel when first started, and noob corp chat, as there are lot's of retreads / alts playing that can answer questions for you. In fact I redid my stats during my trial account, although I agree I had to change my name - real pain.

I agree it does take a while to get started but I think joining a corp can help you as the main problem I have encountered is making isk and some corps have offered me a free cruiser to join. Also I have basic learning skills only and I have very few problems with training, since redoing stats / skills anyway.

All this talk of catching up sounds good to me but is it really necessary, it would have to be doubling learning rate until 1 million sps or something otherwise it could be very unsettling as everybody could accelerate at same time thus keeping the 'gap' the same.

Also, why do you need to catch up to other players anyway? Half the fun of this game is gradually advancing into other specialisations as you eveolve and I think this is why so many people have second accounts to see where this huge universe takes them next. It may get very competitive later in my career but at this stage I love it.

And to all those doom sayers saying that this will mean that many new players will not extend their trial account how come the number of players that are logged in at any one time is constantly increasing, and this is before the new world markets of the far east are openend.

That's my views on the subject, let the flames beginugh

Funky Feeling
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2005.08.03 15:43:00 - [50]
 

This is why eve will never hit the top 10 list. I bet eve has more new players stop playing after a few weeks than any game on the market. Who wants to play a dumb game that you can never catch-up in. Unless you want to hunt rats and run missions new players have no options other than leave and find a PVP game that accepts and promotes new players Eve does not do that.

Originally by: Klaang
Moved from EVE General Discussion to Skills forum - Jacques Archambault

I have read a lot on these forums about new players worried they could never catch up with the older players.

Apart from the fact that its hard to determine what catching up would really be, as Eve does not have an end point - nor does it have any level grinding or predetermined levels at all.

It maybe that some new players feel that they will always never be a challenge to any of the older ones, and while there is a lot of truth in that, as a lot of Eve combat is down to player experience. I would like to give an example how; to some extent this is not true.

Take a look at this.

http://www.veil-nights.com/compair.jpg

Both characters here have relatively equal abilities with ship and weapons, both currently fly the Moa (Caldari cruiser). Both can mount the same defensive modules (medium shield extender and booster), and both can use medium turrets. There is though a big difference in how the ships are set up

To clarify, the ship for Player 2, to the right is setup to fight at long range, with long range Railguns (about 11Km optimal), and Howitzers (around 24KM - but easy reach up to 50Km). Player 1 however, to the left has an optimal range between 5Km and 20KM using Medium blasters and Railguns. Another key issue is that Player 2; out runs player one by about 40M/s. Thus can easy stay outside of the optimal range for Player 1.

Obviously it’s never quite so easy to know how players are set up, and simply knowing what they are using doesn’t always help. But even though Player 1 has about 4 times the skill points, as the ships are set up now, Player one would loose (based on ship set up not player skill)

This example is by far flawless. I wasn’t after a sold base to make the point – the experience and skill of the player is important, Player 2 would have to stay out of range, and Player 1 would most likely flee before real damage was done.

The bottom line is, Player 1 can fly nearly all types of frigates and all but Amarr cruisers... Player 2’s skills are much more refined.

This is something that is unique to Eve; no other game allows that ability to 'catch up'.

Any further thought along these lines is welcome.

(Please note, only Player 1 is mine, Player 2 was borrowed for this purpose. The poster is an alt to keep anonymous)

*Image changed to a link. Please do not post images. -Kaemonn

Funky Feeling
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2005.08.03 15:50:00 - [51]
 

They should give new players protection from long term accounts. Give new players an option to select pvp mode non PVP mode the first 6 months.

Anyway I will not ask anyone to join eve. Unless you started playing in beta the game sucks.


Originally by: Northen Light
Originally by: Missy Meatshield
Edited by: Missy Meatshield on 10/07/2005 16:18:09
Edited by: Missy Meatshield on 10/07/2005 16:16:12


DO NOT GIVE UP!!... They will eventually release Booster Drugs that will make your attributes crazy high and let the younger playes gain a bit of ground on the older players. They wont be released for maybe a year or two or maybe three. But hang in there and specialize and when the devs feel it is time they will allow many of the newer players to advance a bit faster.

It has already happened with advanced learning skills and +4 implants.... NONE of this was available back when poeple played in Beta or when teh game first launched.

So that means someone who gets a subscription RIGHT NOW can actually learn things faster than someone who had an account 2 years ago!!!!. It will only get better for newer players in the future.

Also dont bash the "Hierarchy" of EVE and be bitter.... Their MUST be a hierarchy in EVE... you know why?... because games like SWG where everyone can become a master in 3 months and accomplish everything in the game so soon fall apart and turn into sh!t.

With the hierarchy in EVE it is possible to have meaniningful corporations as the Directors and Founders are very rich and old and wise and have the resources to fund the newer players who are fresh inexperienced recruits with fewer skills. Without a true hierarchy the game could not have different ranks within a corporation military. YOu wouldnt have Officers or fleet commanders or different tiers.....everyone would be the same and that would cause everyone to go out and be solo which would ruin the game. The hierarchy causes dependance on other players and thats what makes this game so fabulous. Its just like the real world.

Not only that but you will enjoy the veterancy that EVE will give YOU. More noobs join teh game everyday... so a year or two years from now there will be people younger with less skills than YOU. So you can actually feel like you are a "veteran" and those newer players will look up to you like you look up to the people older than you. This is a wonderful part of EVE and dont look at it as something bad where you want to quit the game. That is the wrong attitude.


I took this from another thread in here about rookies vs Vets ... i find this writer to be spot on, i could not even come close to writing it better.

You have doubts about continuing after your free trail? Read this thread Yes, you do wanna continue after the free trail !!

Missy i hope you dont mind me moving your reply to this thread .. i just felt it needed to shine its light in here aswell Cool

Syrec
Posted - 2005.08.04 17:24:00 - [52]
 

All this thread has taught me is that still, older players will still say anything to make sure they automaticalluy win fights and get to use 10x as much content as anyone else. Still vets are bitter and are too reluctant to admit that maybe someone who played for 6 MONTHS should be able to do more than a SINGLE thing, and maybe in that one thing they shouldn't completely suck.

Devs need to make content for newer players. Pre-req skills just means the content is for older players. It forces anyone else to specialize and even then not be able to use it for years.

Simply put, learning skills, implants etc, they work against the newer players. You vets need to stop with the phony excuses. You have the +4 implants, not newer players. Stop trying to say the newer implants are for them. Rolling Eyes

This game has a real-life time skill point training system. It's skills rely on training other skills very high. The amount of content you get to experience is directly related to how long you have trained. A side effect of how this system works is that veteran players can use new content immediately, and newer players enter the game knowing they must subscribe for over a year just to compete in the least bit. I'm sorry, but I just can't turn my head like the rest of you.

Sure, I like being uber and having so many skills.. but that doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it right that I have all of my learning skills trained and the expensive +4 implants, but someone eve 3 months in had to train for those 3 months on nothing but learning skills to catch me.. and as for the implants, well no hope on those.

Sure I can haul, Bs, cepters, gun, mine. Heck, if I could only do 1 thing.. I'd get bored as hell! That doesn't make it right that anyone who starts now can never enjoy different aspects of gameplay because they have to 'specialize'... aka be sucky due as a side effect of this skill system.


I think something needs to be changed. The first step is as simple as making all new content ships and mods not require so many pre-requisite skills. It doesn't affect us older players, so why do so many of us shout at the idea? I like this game and personally I don't want the universe to be empty. MMOGs need a flow of new players or else they start to die out. Do you know how many of the players online on the server at any given time are trial accounts? Lots.. lots are newer. There are probably more newer than older. Do you know the leading reason why those trials don't subscribe? Because development of this game is generally unfriendly to them. It's because they don't have fun training 2 months of learning skills. It's because they have to sit there and actually consider that 'well, I can't fly this ship I want to untiol... 1 year from now.' This isn't something we had to deal with. We never had to sit and say.. wow, I can't do this for a year. Why? Because we had all the stuff trained we needed, and we were on schedule with new content. A year is a terribly long time. Lots of people don't even play each MMOG for an entire year. Some only a little over a year. How do any of us know where or what we'll want to play in a year? To go from a trial to subscribe to a game that you can't even try things you want to try out for a year is a big thing. Lots of those trials just say to hell with it.. I'm not sitting with a finger up my behind for an entire year.


but hey, old dogs can't learn new tricks right? I hope you're happy in thinking anyone who didn't know about this game 2 years ago is 'stupid' and thus shouldn't be able to experience as much content. Neutral I guess I just care too much about newer players and the game and should be more selfish too! Confused


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