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Klaang
Posted - 2005.07.23 22:56:00 - [1]
 

Moved from EVE General Discussion to Skills forum - Jacques Archambault

I have read a lot on these forums about new players worried they could never catch up with the older players.

Apart from the fact that its hard to determine what catching up would really be, as Eve does not have an end point - nor does it have any level grinding or predetermined levels at all.

It maybe that some new players feel that they will always never be a challenge to any of the older ones, and while there is a lot of truth in that, as a lot of Eve combat is down to player experience. I would like to give an example how; to some extent this is not true.

Take a look at this.

http://www.veil-nights.com/compair.jpg

Both characters here have relatively equal abilities with ship and weapons, both currently fly the Moa (Caldari cruiser). Both can mount the same defensive modules (medium shield extender and booster), and both can use medium turrets. There is though a big difference in how the ships are set up

To clarify, the ship for Player 2, to the right is setup to fight at long range, with long range Railguns (about 11Km optimal), and Howitzers (around 24KM - but easy reach up to 50Km). Player 1 however, to the left has an optimal range between 5Km and 20KM using Medium blasters and Railguns. Another key issue is that Player 2; out runs player one by about 40M/s. Thus can easy stay outside of the optimal range for Player 1.

Obviously its never quite so easy to know how players are set up, and simply knowing what they are using doesnt always help. But even though Player 1 has about 4 times the skill points, as the ships are set up now, Player one would loose (based on ship set up not player skill)

This example is by far flawless. I wasnt after a sold base to make the point the experience and skill of the player is important, Player 2 would have to stay out of range, and Player 1 would most likely flee before real damage was done.

The bottom line is, Player 1 can fly nearly all types of frigates and all but Amarr cruisers... Player 2s skills are much more refined.

This is something that is unique to Eve; no other game allows that ability to 'catch up'.

Any further thought along these lines is welcome.

(Please note, only Player 1 is mine, Player 2 was borrowed for this purpose. The poster is an alt to keep anonymous)

*Image changed to a link. Please do not post images. -Kaemonn

Atraxy
Minmatar
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2005.07.24 02:13:00 - [2]
 

There does need to be some kind of catch up facility for younger players... as players with say 20+ mil sp are always going to walk all over those with under a mil. Maybe there could be a module that will accelerate the learning times a lot untill a player has x amount of SP. this would allow players starting afresh and to become useful in most professions in a shorter amount of time.

Valerie Ganor
Minmatar
Corona Providence
Posted - 2005.07.24 02:19:00 - [3]
 

Both will still loose vs HACS and the like.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.24 02:34:00 - [4]
 

not the same sorry.

Player 2 is not going to "hit" the enemy nearly as often and when he does they are not going to be hits that are nearly as devistating.

On the same note the hits recieved by player 2 are going to be more devistating to his ship due to lower resistances lower shields #'s lower armor #'s.

Not to mention alot more damaging to his wallet.

Don't get me wrong don't really feel there is that big of an issue. If there is it seems to mainly be with the more experienced players complaining that the new players arent running to their turrets/launchers somehow trying to convience them that they have an equal chance.

Th

Pick Me
Posted - 2005.07.24 02:51:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Klaang
I have read a lot on these forums about new players worried they could never catch up with the older players.


You are wasting your time, they don't want to understand that because they are selling chars. It take them 4 months at 12$ a month to get character they can sell for 100$ or more. So they want something to go quicker at the start.

The real new players have already all the tools they need and more that will follow, they are called implants and advance learning skills. Because thoses old players did'nt have that, they are now training faster. The old too but how is going to get to 20mil SP in less time?

Later we will have +5 to +7 implants easy to get with other stuff like drugs maybe. New players will always have a way to train faster that the old did'nt have. But many of thoses requesting speed boost are just character sellers wanting more $ for their time.

Everyone should also consider the price of the uber clone in any medical facility, they might realise it's not that easy to have many SP. ISK take time you know...

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 03:32:00 - [6]
 

Quote:

You are wasting your time, they don't want to understand that because they are selling chars. It take them 4 months at 12$ a month to get character they can sell for 100$ or more. So they want something to go quicker at the start.



I don't agree with this at all - I think perhaps its more the mountain of difference which is impossible to surmount which gives a lot of the new folks pause.

Quote:

The real new players have already all the tools they need and more that will follow, they are called implants and advance learning skills. Because thoses old players did'nt have that, they are now training faster. The old too but how is going to get to 20mil SP in less time?



You said it yourself - these new tools are available to all players, not just the new players. The gap widens as the issue is cumulative.

Quote:

Later we will have +5 to +7 implants easy to get with other stuff like drugs maybe.



Which will be cost prohibitive to the very players that need it, the new ones. Scraping together a money for a battleship or two trumps spending half a billion on implants - the upper ends are for a select few.



Quote:

New players will always have a way to train faster that the old did'nt have. But many of thoses requesting speed boost are just character sellers wanting more $ for their time.



As stated, incorrect logic here.

And I'm not advocating a change, merely trying to clarify the issue at hand.

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 04:14:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Northen Light on 24/07/2005 04:17:09
Originally by: Atraxy
There does need to be some kind of catch up facility for younger players... as players with say 20+ mil sp are always going to walk all over those with under a mil. Maybe there could be a module that will accelerate the learning times a lot untill a player has x amount of SP. this would allow players starting afresh and to become useful in most professions in a shorter amount of time.


Though i ofc can understand the frustration as a new player, i as an older player would not like that the newer player can come up to the same amount of sps as me in a much shorter time due to some extra gain learning time etc available for rookies.

First of we have played this game for x amount of time and payed x amount of money every month for it to be where we are now. It has taken alot of effort, time, money and devotion to come this far.

One way of speeding things up is buying one of those older char ppl are selling on trade, yes they sell em for ISk but it doesnt take that long to earn 800 mil in this game .. might take you 2-3 months but eventually you will have a char that is 1-2 years old.

When it comes to profession in something in this game there are sooo many to chose from. With just a few months playing you can be a really good frig pilot i.e. You will just not have the "jack of all trades skills" like the rest of us. Its not like we have 20 mil sps in one profession. It is ofc streched out on alot of skills.

I have played this game for soon 2 years i can promise you that someone that has played for 9 months would kick my ass in a 1on1 bs fight .. i dont fly bss. My skills are mixed in frig, gunnery, industry, mission, trading and spaceship.

You wanna do pvp? Train to be a good tackler (wont take that long) Tacklers are needed in pvp. The cruiser aint that far away after that. The thorax is still a really good ship imo. And as someone said before, winning a 1on1 is not always skillbased but just as much fitting and tactic based (and seing how pvp is today 1on1s are not that common as ganks and blob fleets).

You wanna be a miner? Well if you are in a good corp everytime you have had an op the mins get splited between corp and those that mined, ergo someone with a large barge will get same amount as the one mining in a cruiser. Wont pick the speed up on your training but you wont get less then others. And it give you time to learn important things like what systems are good to mine in, where you can get the best profit for your ore/minerals etc

You wanna do missions? There are alot of mission running corps out there. Gang up, help eachother out. A 4 month old char can help in a lvl 4 mission as long as the mission holder knows what he is doing. You can get really good tips in agents, fitting and tactics.

So to all you rookies out there .. it might seem useless but it aint. You are going thru the same thing as we did when we started out (the waiting and waiting and waiting and ..zzz waiting .. for that skill to be done) the only diff is that you have so much more to choose from then we ever had and the fact we didnt have those way up there in sps.

Do not forget that the experience you gain from time is worth alot !!

EDIT: And yes this is an alt, for several reasons i do not wanna post with my main. For you that wonders my main was born in Now -03.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.07.24 04:27:00 - [8]
 

Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.

Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad


subvert
Posted - 2005.07.24 04:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar


Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad





and this is a huge problem with this game. This vet additude that they should own everyone who hasn't been around for years is killing the trial conversions. Tons of people I've seen just don't subscribe because they are too far behind.

The devs need to wake up. By adding all new content requiring tons of level 5 prerequs, they are killing their game.. because new subscribers will take a year or more just to try out the content that is being added *now*. Vets on the other hand are always using the new content, patch to patch.

Implants are horded by the veteran players. Sorry, but not even a 3 monther can afford 150 million ISK for a +4 mem. Vets had time to train learning skill to max as well, while a new player would have to do nothing for 2 months while those train.. and then spend more months just trying to fly a t2 ship.

Plain and simple the gap widens due to current skill system and attribute mechanics. Newer players are limited to a very small spectrum of gameplay, and due to t2 and level 5 requirements, they will always be. Vets on the other hand will enjoy a full spectrum of gameplay and always see the new content.

The devs need to stop catering to their release players and start paying attention about what they are doing to their potential and newer customers. Adding more implants does NOT help new players, nor do learning skills. They help old players only. See, new implants get horded and inflated.. only vets with tons of BPOs and so much ISK because they can fly tech 2 and full skilled BSs of each race. They take them all. Learning skills? Vets already have access to the new uber powerful ships and skills, they can train any new learning and move on. Newbies can't.

Training for 2 months in skills that don't actually enhance your gameplay, just so you can train closer to the rate that veterance train is absolutely stupid. Rolling Eyes


Anyways.. I can see the devs really only pay attention to their old beta/release players from way back, so I guess don't listen to me. Oh well, mmorpgs die if they don't get lots of new subscribers. If the devs cater towards newer players, it WON'T hurt the so called veteran players.. but it WILL increase their trial conversion rates. Mark my words devs... you should do some spy work in your newbie corp channels. Start a dicussion about this and you will find a bunch in there who won't be subscribing simply because of the skill system and never catching up etc... I garentee it, try it with any newbie corp.

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 05:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.

Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad



I'd encourage folks to elevate the discussion wherever possible. No one enjoys being called stupid, and it does much to validate the points they are trying to make. It doesn't take a Cassandra to see that such an environment will simply lead to a smaller Eve.

Give it a bit of thought. We have all noticed server loads have increased lately. I for one haven't seen any large scale marketing campaign, though I certainly don't read every publication on the stands.

I think it possible that we are seeing an increase in alts, judging by some of the posts I've read on here lately. People with five accounts banging on research agents - five agents apiece. I don't think such hardcore struggling to grind up to the economic level of the beta testers is prevelent - but it will become so as the years go by.

In two years its going to start looking a lot different I think. At some point people will say to themselves - will the game be viable long enough for me to achieve what the current veterans have? And when I get there, will they have scaled as well?

I say in two years because I think the "five year" mark is going to be a mental milestone for people. Its a big number. And as much as we'd like it otherwise, people do measure themselves not only upon what they can do but what they can do compared to other people. Its the nature of western civilization.

Eve is so much of an improvement in so many ways to games like TW, muds, EQ and the like - no doubt. The leveling grind is gone.

So are "caps" - there is no level ceiling, the SPs keep increasing - and faster and faster rates because the player can afford better implants. I'm all for this of course, vets deserve it - but it comes with the possibility of stagnation and an odd economic model.

An SP cap would have everyone up in arms, but it would make the most sense for a healthy game. They have done this to a point with the SP sink of higher tiered skills. Its a solution - but as the years go by more and more people will be of the "five account" types so they feel they can do anything near what the beta player can do. That's gross, as is the idear of new players buying an old account to "catch up".

Personally, I'm happy with the game - but I do run two accounts. Probably the best thing CCP could do to make the newer player happier is to make it very clear they aren't going anywhere - and that they will never sell to EA Laughing

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 05:15:00 - [11]
 

And really, Subvert hit it right on target in a number of areas. I have had a lot of trouble getting family members and friends from other games to jump into Eve, for the very reasons spoken about.

I also suggest scoping out the newbie corps, as well as Rookie help. Moreover - do a list of everyone subscribed to rookie help, then take stock of the folks actually asking newbie questions. Add up how many true new players to alts are going on. Then make a quick little formula on conversion rates.

Remember that increased numbers/load on the servers may make the bottom line look better for the quarter, but judging by CCP's (smashingly good) website - they have a single solitary product...and 11 coders total is the last count of their staff.

Hehe, Cassandra indeed Shocked

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 05:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
And really, Subvert hit it right on target in a number of areas. I have had a lot of trouble getting family members and friends from other games to jump into Eve, for the very reasons spoken about.

I also suggest scoping out the newbie corps, as well as Rookie help. Moreover - do a list of everyone subscribed to rookie help, then take stock of the folks actually asking newbie questions. Add up how many true new players to alts are going on. Then make a quick little formula on conversion rates.

Remember that increased numbers/load on the servers may make the bottom line look better for the quarter, but judging by CCP's (smashingly good) website - they have a single solitary product...and 11 coders total is the last count of their staff.

Hehe, Cassandra indeed Shocked


Though this might be the fact you still need to see that 150 rookies talking and agreeing about how impossible it is to catch up is like a train never hitting station. That is all they hear, they hardly hear anyone pushing them, telling them that they STILL can enjoy the game. Bad feelings spread like fire mkey

Being a rookie do not equal not enjoying the game for what it is. Make the best of it and atleast give it a try before you declare it ded.

Just as i saw now, the one you are quoting is the one with the bad things to say, it gives fuel to your own fire doesnt it?

Old players will leave the game eventually .. giving the semi old ones a boost up etc etc .. dont be so angry and hateful about the game. Give it a chance ...

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 05:45:00 - [13]
 

Quote:

Though this might be the fact you still need to see that 150 rookies talking and agreeing about how impossible it is to catch up is like a train never hitting station. That is all they hear, they hardly hear anyone pushing them, telling them that they STILL can enjoy the game. Bad feelings spread like fire mkey

Being a rookie do not equal not enjoying the game for what it is. Make the best of it and atleast give it a try before you declare it ded.

Just as i saw now, the one you are quoting is the one with the bad things to say, it gives fuel to your own fire doesnt it?

Old players will leave the game eventually .. giving the semi old ones a boost up etc etc .. dont be so angry and hateful about the game. Give it a chance ...


I'm neither angry nor hateful. Not sure where you got that from - perhaps because my post was a bit more magnanimous than the one before it.

Suggest you address the logic and substance of the post, rather than the tone or percieved motivations. Smile

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.07.24 05:51:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.

Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad




And I am tired of an attitude like yours.

This game has evolved in many ways. It's time the skill system is tweaked to favour newer players slightly.

I can give lots of strong arguments for it compared to the weak one above.

Bozl1n
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2005.07.24 06:20:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.

Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad




And I am tired of an attitude like yours.

This game has evolved in many ways. It's time the skill system is tweaked to favour newer players slightly.

I can give lots of strong arguments for it compared to the weak one above.



Tho applying it to mining barges was crap, the idea itself is COMPLETLY valid

I have about 25m sp, of that around 8.4m of that is in ship command, the megatron is my principle ship, acounting for around 2.2m includeing the req frig/cruiser skill needed.

I have 6.2m sp completly unused, based on JUST pilot skills when in my principle ship along with a lge chunk of eng and elec skills (sheild and ew spring to mind), other huge chunks of gunnery from other turrent class's, missiles etc add to it as well, id bet if you total it up completly ive got about 13m completely unused, probably more, with every relavent skill (bar blaster/rail lge spec 5) at max while flying a mega.

So to be able to compete with me in an identicle ship, does some1 need 25m or 12m?

Granted they wont be able to do much but fly a tron, but hell i cant even use miner 2s, i live with itVery Happy

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 06:30:00 - [16]
 

Quote:

Tho applying it to mining barges was crap, the idea itself is COMPLETLY valid

I have about 25m sp, of that around 8.4m of that is in ship command, the megatron is my principle ship, acounting for around 2.2m includeing the req frig/cruiser skill needed.

I have 6.2m sp completly unused, based on JUST pilot skills when in my principle ship along with a lge chunk of eng and elec skills (sheild and ew spring to mind), other huge chunks of gunnery from other turrent class's, missiles etc add to it as well, id bet if you total it up completly ive got about 13m completely unused, probably more, with every relavent skill (bar blaster/rail lge spec 5) at max while flying a mega.

So to be able to compete with me in an identicle ship, does some1 need 25m or 12m?

Granted they wont be able to do much but fly a tron, but hell i cant even use miner 2s, i live with itVery Happy


Lets test this then. What if after 30 million skillpoints you gained points at say half the speed. You could axe those skills you don't use, and reppropriate them - gaining again at fullspeed (plus some, since it is likely you can afford better implants and the like than the noob).

As you say, you don't use those other skills - so better to have a more refined, hearty character.

The actuality though is that quite a large number of those unused skills you do use, just not in that snapshot of time. They do things to help you gain ISK, or add value to yourself to the corporation, or whatever. They have plenty of value, even if it means you can jump into a ship you wouldn't normally fly in a pinch because its the only one left in the corp hanger and rejoin the fight, etc. Or get perfect refines without having to ask a director to do it, or have a larger ammount of sell orders - all the things those ancillary skills do.

Its all well and good to talk about a new character being able to go haul in a L4 mission for a vet, or tackle for them, or support them. Thats good, and fun - but have to plan for the future.

Caelian
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 06:39:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Caelian on 24/07/2005 06:39:31
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.

Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad



If there's one thing I hate it's people who put their heads in the sand and pretend there are no problems. Not to mention the whine of 'I paid more WAWAAAA'.

The skill system should be modified to allow a newer player to catch up somewhat quicker. Maybe give new players 1 or 2 basic learning skills already at 4 or 5, 'declassify' a set of skills since they have been around the beginning of time, making each level of those purchaseable (against higher amounts of ISK per level) etc.

Darlan Flame
GoonFleet
Posted - 2005.07.24 06:48:00 - [18]
 

New players these days have their advanced learning and implants, neither of which is of any use what so ever to a new player.

Advanced learning = spending a month or two training skills that let you train skills better, leaving you sitting in the hanger wondering what to do. Or mining veldspar in a tech 1 frigate. When getting into a new game, you want action now, not action two months from now.

Implants = all the ones that make a huge differance are far beyond the reach of new players. A player who has been playing for a month or two has a hard enough time getting the money for his first cruiser, much less a full compliment of implants.

What are we telling new players? Start now, play two months later?

Bozl1n
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2005.07.24 07:28:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
Quote:

Tho applying it to mining barges was crap, the idea itself is COMPLETLY valid

snipVery Happy


Lets test this then. What if after 30 million skillpoints you gained points at say half the speed. You could axe those skills you don't use, and reppropriate them - gaining again at fullspeed (plus some, since it is likely you can afford better implants and the like than the noob).

As you say, you don't use those other skills - so better to have a more refined, hearty character.

The actuality though is that quite a large number of those unused skills you do use, just not in that snapshot of time. They do things to help you gain ISK, or add value to yourself to the corporation, or whatever. They have plenty of value, even if it means you can jump into a ship you wouldn't normally fly in a pinch because its the only one left in the corp hanger and rejoin the fight, etc. Or get perfect refines without having to ask a director to do it, or have a larger ammount of sell orders - all the things those ancillary skills do.

Its all well and good to talk about a new character being able to go haul in a L4 mission for a vet, or tackle for them, or support them. Thats good, and fun - but have to plan for the future.


I cant see where capping of SP would help? You would catch up but how would that improve youre performance in a like 4 like fight? The total sp u have is just a number? its in what there trained in that counts towards how u perform.

Surely it just reaches a dead end once every1 is at that cap? wot about new content and new skills? If every1 can do everything why bother with skills in the first place?
Sure capping skills will mean new players catch up, but they still need to ACTULLY learn the sp, this dosnt do that at all, in effect it just nerfs older players? While i agree my high sp does help, nerfing it so that because i want to train dreadnoughts, so i must give up the ability to fly hacs aint gonna close the gap in reality.

The differnce between lvl 4 and leval 5 skill accounts for (guessing) around 90-95% of the total sp in a lvl 5 skill, during my training of gal bs 5, you could train LOADS of other skills to lvl 4, our sp totals would go up the same amount yet you would gain about 20% effectivness on multiple skills, while i only 5% on a single skill. In the same way once you decided to train a leval 5 skill, i could train the mining skills to leval 4 and be almost as good as a leval skilled 5 peep within a few days. The skill system is already stacked n00b training frendly.

For the record, you would train faster, i dont use implants, nor have ANY of the learning skills at 5, this is because i have enough sp where i need it already, having implants wont help me fly a tron any better, nor would another 30m sp on top, with regards to flying s dreadnought, sure it might take me 10 days longer to get to max, but he will only be as good as me during the loooooooooong train to leval 5 and in those 10 days any fight we had would be down to player skill, cos that 5% dont mean muchWink


Bozl1n
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2005.07.24 07:54:00 - [20]
 

I see the main problem people have is "catching up" what are you trying to "catch up" to?

The total number at the top of the skill list?

Even with 25m sp i cant mine 4 ****, would you like help catching up with my 68k industry skills?

They have intended that peeps are good at very few things and that they excel in very few, i will never be able to do everything, i will get pwn'd doing some things, while i will pwn you at others, but 1 of my guys might be able to match you in what you beat me in, and 1 of youre guys in wot i beat u in, so by working as a team it evens out, thats the problem with skill, figureing out which part of the puzzle you want to fit into, once you do trainin to be that piece dosnt take long, and you will be able to fit into the puzzle in other ways on youre way there as you skill up. Im training to fly dreadnoughts, i have to wait for it, but still fit into the role of gal bs pilot on the way.

The problem comes when you change youre mind part way though or dont pay attention (as a corpmate of mine once spent about 2 weeks time on something he didnt need, cos re misread the skill req lol)

The problem is you need to make the choice usally at the time you know least about wot u choose, if every new player was given 10m sp at the start and later changed path in the game, he would have to retrain because he made a bad call on day 1?

Eve is very unforgiving regarding this, but boosting skill levals and capping vets wont speed youre ability to compete to a competant leval (if that means you have leval 4 and him 5, thats competant) as training time to leval 4 reasonably fast, unless ofc you trained in the wrong direction which would leave you just as stuffedSad

Klaang
Posted - 2005.07.24 09:48:00 - [21]
 

The post wasn't about raising the issue on new players catching up. The point was to prove they don't need to. This maybe be a small example, and maybe even a bad example, but it still helps to show its possible.

I myself dont understand why the new players want to catch up. When I stated playing I couldn't care less about those that where veteran players. They do there thing, I do mine.

Never in a game have I worried about beating them, I keep to those that are at my level, and if a veteran player decides to pick on me, I will either loose gracefully, or run as fast as what ever ship I have can go.

The way I see it, its a game of many stages. Split by how long people have been playing. Skills points are the level marker, but yet dont really prove anything.

Why do the new players need so desperately to catch up? Why can't they play the game at the same pace and willingness as the older ones did years ago?

Some of you have said that they don't get to do many things, but there are loads for them to do. They can even go exploring. They just don't think to.

I am a new player; I am only 2 months old. I also have two accounts to broaden my game play. Not everyone can afford that, but in my case my second account is a miner - so there not really mission out on much.

This is about the new players not knowing what to do, not because there arent enough things, maybe because there is too many. If they put the time to learn the game they too can achieve what I have. Its not about who has more skill points.

In 2 months:
I run a corporation of just under 20 people.
I can do level 3 missions.
I can fly nearly every frigate, and so far half the available cruisers.
I have 3 of 4 of my learning skills to level 3 in the advanced half.
I have been in - and out of 0.0
I have had implants since the start.

Maybe I am lucky - but I dont think I am that lucky. And if I would have focused more, I am sure by now I could fly and afford a tech 2 ship. New players are simply to lazy, or worried to try. I did, and I have achieved a lot.

(PS: Apologies for the image posting, didnt realise it would be a problem Smile

Klaang
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:04:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Klaang on 24/07/2005 10:05:38
Quote:

not the same sorry.

Player 2 is not going to "hit" the enemy nearly as often and when he does they are not going to be hits that are nearly as devistating.

On the same note the hits recieved by player 2 are going to be more devistating to his ship due to lower resistances lower shields #'s lower armor #'s.

Not to mention alot more damaging to his wallet.

Don't get me wrong don't really feel there is that big of an issue. If there is it seems to mainly be with the more experienced players complaining that the new players arent running to their turrets/launchers somehow trying to convience them that they have an equal chance.

Th




I would like to point out this is not true. If you would have read it you would realize that Player 2 will win mainly for the fact he out ranges and out runs Player one.

Also, if you look there isnt a large difference in gunnery skills.

And finally player 2 has been seen to do over 100 damage to targets over 25Km away.

Again, this wasnt about the backing behind who will win Smile

Klaang
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:06:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Klaang on 24/07/2005 10:06:42
Double post ugh

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2005.07.24 10:18:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.

Yes I can do more than you can as a newb, because I have payed about 24 more months of gametime than you have. It's not my fault that you were too stupid to join the game at release and my invesments into the game so far (money, time, dedication) shouldn't be devalued just to let you have your cake sooner.

If there's one thing I hate then it's greed Evil or Very Mad




Totally agree.

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:35:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
Quote:

Though this might be the fact you still need to see that 150 rookies talking and agreeing about how impossible it is to catch up is like a train never hitting station. That is all they hear, they hardly hear anyone pushing them, telling them that they STILL can enjoy the game. Bad feelings spread like fire mkey

Being a rookie do not equal not enjoying the game for what it is. Make the best of it and atleast give it a try before you declare it ded.

Just as i saw now, the one you are quoting is the one with the bad things to say, it gives fuel to your own fire doesnt it?

Old players will leave the game eventually .. giving the semi old ones a boost up etc etc .. dont be so angry and hateful about the game. Give it a chance ...


I'm neither angry nor hateful. Not sure where you got that from - perhaps because my post was a bit more magnanimous than the one before it.

Suggest you address the logic and substance of the post, rather than the tone or percieved motivations. Smile


I did not say you were angry or hateful, i didnt actually say that someone special was it. Now that you took it on yourself to feel that .. well that lies within you.

And i guess as logical as you looked at the other posts? What i was doing was showing that even when there is a post pointing out what a rookie actually can do etc you chose to disregard it and go on the angry one.

Why dont you look at that one and see the substance in there .. might help you a bit sir Wink

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 12:50:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean

Its all well and good to talk about a new character being able to go haul in a L4 mission for a vet, or tackle for them, or support them. Thats good, and fun - but have to plan for the future.


I asume you were refering to my first post?

Never said anything about having to haul, there are other stuff you can do ..
And why are you going on saying for them, for them, for them all the time?
What about thinking it can be for yourself just as much as for them? First of tacklers are often the first to die, it take alot to survive as a tackler in a fleet. You are small and can die fast but what you do is important for the fleet. I have been a tackler for over a year and tbh its more fun the flying one of those big slow and fat ships. Tackling is fun and should not be seen as a slavejob for vets. And how in gawds name is tackling, hauling disturbing in your plan for the future?

But i guess its like a kid wanting to become an adult really fast and when the kid finally is an adult he/she wishes he/she could be a kid again.

CCP .. come on .. give all the rookies 20 mil sps in what ever they want, this way you will have atleast 80k more subscribers. Ohh and btw, while your at it .. hand me about 15 mil more sps as there are those closing in on 40 mil sps in this game and i do not feel it is fair towards me that they can have that amount. Rolling Eyes


Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 14:53:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
I asume you were refering to my first post?


I wasn't talking about you at all dear.

And I'm saying "for them" because I already have two characters with the advanced learning skills trained up and with enough skillpoints to rock and roll with a decent ammount of capital. This isn't about me, or you.

This is about the 50million SP toon and the 0SP toon. This is a significant difference, and logically - its going to make getting fresh blood harder and harder. I have alluded to the fact that the numbers in server loads are caused by people with nutty ammounts of accounts, not fresh players. I watch rookie help in an alt now and then and help out (looking for corp members, for one).

To deny that the gamer who does not currently play Eve will be a bit less likely in a couple of years to play the game, knowing there are a multitude of characters insurmountably five years ahead of them does injustice to the conversation.

Try to look at it from the perspective of someone reading a gaming magazine or searching for a new MMO. Thats what I'm doing. I sat through the advanced learning skills, but others simply won't.

I'd like to bring more people into the game, I've had difficulty doing this. Understandable, Eve is a niche sort of game - but the biggest issue entirely has been this problem. Wish we could keep the discussion on that target.

subvert
Posted - 2005.07.24 15:29:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Next time you complainers see someone in a mining barge or battleship... ask yourself how many of those 20+ million SP are actually being used while he's sitting in that ship.Evil or Very Mad




Just to comment on this par also, this is another thing many vets spew out.. but it really isn't right. The only thing it proves is that newer players are forced into a single aspect of eve gameplay, and they will still be less useful in that aspect.


The ability to run a corp, lead your gang, fly a bunch of ships, mine your own materials, refine for greater profit, trade in an entire regeon, AND be an ace combat pilot in a few of those ****s is worth a lot. So what if you're sitting in a mega, and only so-so % of your SP count towards the mega. You don't think newer players need other skills? You have a choice to hop into a few BSs, a couple cepters maybe, HAC, cruiser, AF, maybe covert ops. This is called versatility and it also makes the game more fun for you. Doing 1 single thing the entire time in EVE would be boring, and it is boring. You use various skills all the time.. your SPs aren't 'wated.'

Saying that newer players should 'specialize' is just a nice way of saying that they should only be allowed to do one very certain thing in the game... and lets face it, with your multiple lvl5 skills you're skill going to wreck them.

Northen Light
Gallente
Posted - 2005.07.24 15:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
Quote:
Wish we could keep the discussion on that target.


Well we are, just not according to your ways.

So tell CCP what to do, give constructive critisism. What should they do to make rookies happy and keep the vets happy too?

As i understand you feel what you write is helping etc .. so do i ..

I still wonder what your point is (more then the obviouse "I want rookies to gain sps faster")

Caeden Nicomachean
The Older Gamers
R0ADKILL
Posted - 2005.07.24 16:06:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Caeden Nicomachean on 24/07/2005 16:22:56
I don't know that allowing newer players to gain SP faster is necessarily solution really. It's like the "nerf the Thorax" threads in a lot of ways, or really - more like "beef every other cruiser but the Thorax, instead of nerf it" threads. Allowing them to skill faster may be a bandaid, but does it solve the problem? Boost cruisers, then BCs are even more poo. Boost BCs, level1 BSs are then under the microscope. You can fiddle all day long and have the same issue, just with a different demographic. Same with this issue.

And lets face it - we need the vets even more than we need noobs. And we DO get a trickle of newbies.

A new shard for new folks works against the strengths of the game and would be a nightmare.

*scratches head*

Seems to me what you want to stick around is that feeling of "vastness". 0.0 being entirely claimed by alliances, the saturation of the T1 market - that helps reduce this a little...but is a slight tangent from the issue at hand. It seems to me you could allieviate some of the problem though by reducing proximity and allowing new players to feel as if there was "virgin space" out there - or do more to make it more accessible to the newer players without indenturing them to a corp/alliance.

And really I think thats how you address the root issue. Spread the players out more. The two problems are intertwined.

Edit: spelling - though I'm sure there is more Laughing


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