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Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.12 23:22:00 - [1]
 

We have now witnessed the difference between T1 and T2 and the skill training involved, and now it doesn't matter if you use projectiles, hybrids, lasers or missiles (I remember armageddon day and getting a few hours of sniffing at a battleship).

Where does T3 take us in training times ? Need I mention T4 or T5 ?

What the heck do the uber Joves have up their sleeves ?

Does T3 become available after play EVE for 3 years ? T4 after 4 years ? T5, OMG, after playing 5 years ?

Jove space and technology after a decade ?

Where is EVE going (and where does CCP intend to take it) in the future ?

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.12 23:33:00 - [2]
 

There will come a point if the game is to continue to grow that a couple things have to happen.

1. You have to keep veteran players satisfyed.

2. You have to attract and "KEEP" new players.

You cant let the spread of new to old players get so great that the new players have no hope of competing.

It is very close to that now. A good portion of new players don't want to wait over a year to be competitive in pvp.

At the same time older players don't want to become stagnate and want new things that are worth having not just revised existing content.

The only way anything like this can stay going is if the new content is new directions it must branch out sideways and not in a sraight line up.

New content needs to be added just not at the expense of new players with wont want to get steam rolled with the promise that "someday" they to will be able to steam roll.

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.12 23:52:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Allen Deckard
There will come a point if the game is to continue to grow that a couple things have to happen.

1. You have to keep veteran players satisfyed.


Count me in after over 2 years, otherwise I wouldn't have posed such a provocative question.

Originally by: Allen Deckard
2. You have to attract and "KEEP" new players.


Agreed 100%, I try to help my new members out every way I can

Originally by: Allen Deckard
You cant let the spread of new to old players get so great that the new players have no hope of competing.

It is very close to that now. A good portion of new players don't want to wait over a year to be competitive in pvp.


But you can't allow a +2 year player to be "beaten" by a new player, not only PvP here but also PvE.

Originally by: Allen Deckard
At the same time older players don't want to become stagnate and want new things that are worth having not just revised existing content.


Well said.

Originally by: Allen Deckard
The only way anything like this can stay going is if the new content is new directions it must branch out sideways and not in a sraight line up.

New content needs to be added just not at the expense of new players with wont want to get steam rolled with the promise that "someday" they to will be able to steam roll.


I think the "vets" (how I hate that term) should take more new players into their fold, agreed.

But where does it go from here for the vets, this thread and it's questions are very much related to the future of T2 players that already have the skills for T2 equipment, does a 4 week training stint to get to lvl 1 in skill "XYZ" await us in the future ?

SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.07.12 23:55:00 - [4]
 

Its already branching out from the base. The new cosmos skills, the new leadership skills, all these provide the new player the opportunity to specialize in something that veterans are not. Sure the new players shouldnt expect to fly dreadnoughts anytime soon, but BCs with the new gang leadership modules :) why not? This patch introduced some totally new roles in the game. COSMOS runners and leadership pilots. All these veterans have had almost no chance to train for and are open for new players to enter.

With that im done with work :) time to go home and play eve

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 00:12:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 13/07/2005 02:44:37
SengH:

you miss my point, I (as do many others have adv learning skills to lvl 4 and 5), we can still train new skills faster than any "n00b", that's only about priorities.

What I am wonderinga about is "What can the vets expect from T3, T4 and T5" ? Does each new tech level automatically increase training times by 3 ?

Do I have to play EVE for 10 years before I meet a Jove that isn't a member of the Dev or Event team ?

When will Jove space and technology be opened up to us "menial" players ?

Just WHAT are CCPs thoughts on T3, T4, T5 ?

More of the same ?

T3 Minmatar Cruiser "UBERIN" based on Munin which is based on Rupture ?

T4 Minmatar Cruiser "MEGAIN", based on Uberin which is based on Munin which, in turn is based on "ancient" Rupture ?

See my point ?

Please excuse slight Matari bias on choice of examples, it has something to do with the fact that I'm a Brutor.

Edit: Jaabaa woops, Brutor's can't type

Cabadrin
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2005.07.13 00:19:00 - [6]
 

Jaabaa, I agree that CCP needs to keep us vets (I also hate the term) satisfied. I'm kinda upset that you need such insanely long training times to fly t2 ships. You could spend a year training for t2 cruisers, working on core and secondary skills. I'd like to see the higher level skills cap out at, say, a month to complete. I know i'd be ****ed if T3 made me train three 1 1/2 month skills to use. It's kinda insane and it means practically no one but the oldest players will get the new stuff. At the same time is almost instanly outclasses the young players.

The solution for pvp is to work in groups. The lower class ships cost less, so you can lose more of them while killing a t2 ship, and you'll still come out on top economically. For instance, if you lose three kestrels to kill a Crow, you've still come out ahead.

However, I'll not be happy if I have to spend half a year training for T3. It's a lot of time doing nothing but training.

Forgive my rambling, I'm really tired :(

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2005.07.13 00:25:00 - [7]
 

The idea is, and has always been, that high sec is for new players and lower sec has greater risks but greater rewards such that when people are able to deal with the risks, they will be attracted outward. The eventual outcome will be that the better stuff comes out, the more people will move out into 0.0 to tackle what they are now able to with their new stuff. Not everyone will mvoe out but high sec space will always be a relative newbie haven. Which of us older players actually wants to live in 1.0, mining veldspar and doing level 1 missions?

Arain
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:05:00 - [8]
 

Good post. I kind of think the future looks very much like the designers are painting themselves into a corner. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

On one hand as has been mentioned you have to make the game interesting to new players, and keep the learning curve both real and skill based reasonable. If you make the hill they must climb too high they will get frustrated and quit.

On the other hand you have those who have years invested into the game and skill training. How do you keep the game fun for them without letting them getting so advanced over the new player that there is no meeting ground between them.

Just as a example the current missle nerf. It now takes much longer to make a Caldari character viable even for PvE as a new player. How does that help keep your new players interested in the game? Yet it apparently had to be done because so many "Vets" were complaining other people were makeing too much money without haveing to go to 0.0.

While I liked the time based skill learning system when the game first came out, as far as long time game stability I think its going to end up a problem.

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:10:00 - [9]
 

I don't think t3 should be done. At least not for ships.

Sobeseki Pawi
Minmatar
Insurance Claim Services
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:15:00 - [10]
 

If T3 is simply player designed named T1 or even T2 (naturally not enough to be crazily imbalanced) it wouldnt be too bad I dont think.

Abdalion


Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:17:00 - [11]
 

I have often wondered some of these things myself. Obviously, I am in the game for the long haul.

This will be an interesting thread, interesting indeed.

Blind Fear
Amarr
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:20:00 - [12]
 

This thread looks partially unconstructive to me.

Sobeseki Pawi
Minmatar
Insurance Claim Services
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:21:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Blind Fear
This thread looks partially unconstructive to me.


That could be said of the bulk of your posts Wink

Blind Fear
Amarr
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Originally by: Blind Fear
This thread looks partially unconstructive to me.


That could be said of the bulk of your posts Wink
Ow. My pride.

infused
Posted - 2005.07.13 01:55:00 - [15]
 

I heard T3 was going to be player created items, in every sense...

Which is due after Kali...


Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
Which of us older players actually wants to live in 1.0, mining veldspar and doing level 1 missions?

You SERIOUSLY missed my point, after 2+ years of EVE, what awaits me or you ??

T3 with 3-6 months of training ?

T4 with ??? years(s) of training ?

T5, well let's leave it at T4 shall we.

Jovian, OMG, lots of subscription since day 1, i.e. release.

I don't really care about individual ships, I could fly a Dreadnought in 14 days if I really wanted to, and the ISK is really an issue after 2 years of EVE, believe me.

Do we continue paying monthly subs to get +5% something skill to level 5, and then see it requiring 5-8 newly added skills at next patch ?

Which also require 2-3 months of training to get, even with advanced learning skills and implants out of your preverbial ?

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
If T3 is simply player designed named T1 or even T2 (naturally not enough to be crazily imbalanced) it wouldnt be too bad I dont think.


Reverse engineering anyone ?

Still not there.

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Blind Fear
This thread looks partially unconstructive to me.


Your post looks "partially" like WOB (waste of bandwith)

This thread is dedicated to players that have a higher IQ than your SPs and have been playing the game long enough to be amazed at battleships during the Beta (at leasr Armagedon Day), and are now flying them, wondering what comes next.

I try to keep a level head in much of what I post regarding n00bs and "ore thieves", "omg I want to get into 0.0 space", or what ever.

This thread is 100% for the vets.

Got my 1st frigate BPO
Got my 1st cruiser BPO
Got my 1st battleship BPO
Been to 0.0
Fought alliance wars

In no particular order ....

Been there, seen it, done it, and I for one have a great tee shirt that says "Proud member of CA", were you getting up to your 1st battleship then ?

Once again, my question is related to what could be be considered "currently" as high end content, and the question of:

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

Seeing Jove Dev alts and continuing to say "OMG, 1 day I'll be a dev, err, JOVE"

Seeing Devs and ISD on Sisi in Titans and Frieghters on Sisi, saying "Gonna get myself one of those after a year of training"

I was under the impression (obviously wrongly) that jump drives would get you into the new "elite" Jovian space, guess what, even with that skill I can't get into the NEXT SYSTEM with out having someone become a "live" beacon.

Go figure.

So I ask again, CCP, do we have to wait a decade before we even "see/sniff/think of" Jovian technology ?

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:24:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Cabadrin
Jaabaa, I agree that CCP needs to keep us vets (I also hate the term) satisfied. I'm kinda upset that you need such insanely long training times to fly t2 ships. You could spend a year training for t2 cruisers, working on core and secondary skills. I'd like to see the higher level skills cap out at, say, a month to complete. I know i'd be ****ed if T3 made me train three 1 1/2 month skills to use. It's kinda insane and it means practically no one but the oldest players will get the new stuff. At the same time is almost instanly outclasses the young players.

The solution for pvp is to work in groups. The lower class ships cost less, so you can lose more of them while killing a t2 ship, and you'll still come out on top economically. For instance, if you lose three kestrels to kill a Crow, you've still come out ahead.

However, I'll not be happy if I have to spend half a year training for T3. It's a lot of time doing nothing but training.

Forgive my rambling, I'm really tired :(


Only problem I see with the constant statements of (use 5 of x and you can kill the t2 y) and thats how you do it as a noob group. See the problem is the vet is 90% of the time in a group as well pretty much negating your group.

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:40:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Allen Deckard
Only problem I see with the constant statements of (use 5 of x and you can kill the t2 y) and thats how you do it as a noob group. See the problem is the vet is 90% of the time in a group as well pretty much negating your group.


Allen, most vets are in a group, and if it's a gang you KNOW who's getting the benifits from leadership skills.

To quote you: (use 5 of x and you can kill the t2 y) ...

(use 5 of VET and you can kill the HELL OUT OF y)

Don't get me wrong here new members of the EVE community, a load of you can take out a VET battleship pod pilot in seconds, in frigates, if you get together, your addition to the EVE universe is always needed, be it in Frigates, Cruisers, Haulers, Interceptors, what ever.

But if you are going to try and take on Vet players expect losses Smile

Small side step on the thread ...

Why aren't "Freighters" and "Mining Barges" sub classes of "Industrials" ? Are they really combat ships or something more UBER yet to be discovered ?

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:44:00 - [21]
 

Only things I can add is basically the same things.

New skills need added for vet players.

The new skills should not make current skills better but give new directions for players to go in.

If you simply add even say something like 2% to turret damage per level thats another 10% damage plus another what not and whatever basically putting vet player to far above new player thus further depopulation of .0 or any pvp arena.

I will disagree with jaabaa only in the statement that he makes that new players should not be on equal footing with vets in pvp.
Don't get me wrong not sayin that a one month character should be on equal footing but the average player is not going to play for much more than 5 months without being one at least fairly equal footing and if the vet player simply outclasses him in every facet he'll just leave.

Vets are important to the game same as for any business. But new blood MUST be brought in on a costant basis or the game will die no matter how much vets wish it not to.

Again new skills and content need to branch out not up. The new skills no matter what they are have to be things that arent going to make your ship more umber but are equally important in someother aspect of game play. (don't ask me what if I knew I would be a developer)
T2 wepons even now put many players at enough of a disadvantage to keep them either out or semi out of .0 My corp for one cannot afford to provide t2 much of anything to it's members thus we loose more, members get discouraged in pvp and move back to empire.

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:56:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Allen Deckard
I will disagree with jaabaa only in the statement that he makes that new players should not be on equal footing with vets in pvp.
Don't get me wrong not sayin that a one month character should be on equal footing but the average player is not going to play for much more than 5 months without being one at least fairly equal footing and if the vet player simply outclasses him in every facet he'll just leave.


Allen, I think that a group of PvP beginners in Frigates would fry my sorry 4$$ in my fully equipped T2 Tempest.

A lot of the new players THINK they have to join an existing alliance/corp to do something but in fact, all they have to do is get together like the current Vets did ages ago, and claim space.

It's not the T2 or the SPs that win then, it's the numbers and the determination of a unified front of players.

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.13 02:59:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jaabaa Prime



Don't get me wrong here new members of the EVE community, a load of you can take out a VET battleship pod pilot in seconds, in frigates, if you get together, your addition to the EVE universe is always needed, be it in Frigates, Cruisers, Haulers, Interceptors, what ever.

But if you are going to try and take on Vet players expect losses Smile



Don't really know how to respond I don't think anything I will say will be understood either because of my lack of abilities to expain or lack of wanting to understand.
Fact vets rule .0 just the way it is. Not a complaint not a ***** just the way it is and probably should be. Thing is these same vet players want more people into .0 to increase content of their game play.
New player/players move to .0 and as you stated they should expect losses. They take losses and expect it. BUT if the disparity becomes to large between skill sets and the vet players win EVERY fight or it takes 50 new guys to kill a vet the new guys are simply going to say screw it and move back to empire eventually alot of them will no longer see any challenge in the game and quit.

Again don't look at any of this as a ***** just the way I see it.

I guess this is the simplest way I can put what I feel.

The closer you bring old and new players together in abilities of combat.
1. the more combat your going to have
2. The more people are going to pvp
3. The higher the population .0 will be

If I don't feel I have a chance to win
1. I wont play
2. I will avoid pvp at all cost
3. I won't live in .0

This is not to say someone doesn't expect to loose from time to time but the difference between not feeling a chance at winning and having a chance at looseing. There is quite a large difference even though it may be hard to see for some.

And in all of this we are speaking of even numbers 10 of us on 1 of you is never fun any more than 10 of you on 1 of us. Not saying people want 1 on 1 all the time but there is no real feeling of accomplishment in 10 on 1.




Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 03:11:00 - [24]
 

OK Allen, to be brutally honest after dicussing the pros and cons of n00bism ...

I've been playing since release (beta actually, and some here since alpha).

If n00bs don't knwo how to get organised then it's not my problem (or that of any EVE vet).

This thread is about high end, next generation content and Joves, not about corporations that can not equip their pilots with sufficient T2 equipment Rolling Eyes.

BTW, we sell some of the T2 equipment you might need or use Razz

So, back to the subject in hand, what can we expect from T3, 4 and 5 ?

Years of training before we see a Jove (that isn't in little bits in my hangar) or their technology ?

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.13 03:15:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
Originally by: Allen Deckard
I will disagree with jaabaa only in the statement that he makes that new players should not be on equal footing with vets in pvp.
Don't get me wrong not sayin that a one month character should be on equal footing but the average player is not going to play for much more than 5 months without being one at least fairly equal footing and if the vet player simply outclasses him in every facet he'll just leave.


Allen, I think that a group of PvP beginners in Frigates would fry my sorry 4$$ in my fully equipped T2 Tempest.

A lot of the new players THINK they have to join an existing alliance/corp to do something but in fact, all they have to do is get together like the current Vets did ages ago, and claim space.

It's not the T2 or the SPs that win then, it's the numbers and the determination of a unified front of players.


Don't want to turn this into an us them arguement cause that is not my intention.

When vets did things ages ago as you say (kinda funny as the game is only 3 years old) but ages and eons ago when the vets took something over and carved out a spot in .0 they wern't fighting players with 30mil plus skill points with t2 guns t2 ships and every oponent in a bs with 5 other bs's in their hanger.

We live in .0 a good % of the time not to long ago we got in a fight with an experience pvp group we did manage to kill 2 of their bs's we took heavy looses within 5 mins those players were back in the fight with 2 more bs's even though the 2 we killed had to have over 400 mil each in mods alone each. With what we lost we were out of the fight. We can't compete with that. Doesn't really matter how unified we are (guess we are unified enough we have been playing online games together for 15 years now)

Quite frankly within 5 to 6 months of game play people want to be at least fairly equal on the pvp field. This isn't a career it's a game people don't get paid to play so people are not going to wait years to be taking equal losses and wins.

Again this isn't a whine don't look at it that way. I am mearly stating that if the game continues down the road it is currently on without branching out the pvp game will become more and more one sided all fights will be blobs because new players have to blob to stand a chance forcing vets to form blobs forcing new players to make bigger blobs. Blobs are never fun for either side.

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.07.13 03:37:00 - [26]
 

If you are entering 0.0 space, then you are most likely to be up against an alliance, not a single corporation.

Two battleships are nothing, I remember a member of ..., no matter, lets just say, another corp, losing 3 battleships in 1 day and 5 during the complete week. Yes, a single alliance member.

As I said above, it's about uniting together, not just your "we can't afford T2 items" corp, but a LOAD of "we can't afford T2 items" corps, getting together, working as a team and clearing out a bit of space from the "ALL OUR SHIPS ARE T2" corps, so that "THEY" (the new ownners) can get together and call it home, if there is a fusion or a fude after that is another matter ...

Allen Deckard
Gallente
Roadking Hawg's
Posted - 2005.07.13 04:07:00 - [27]
 

I guess in it all the point I was trying to make was completly lost I appoligize.

Expecting the oposition to gather up in the numbers your suggesting is possible but not probable but that is beside the point.

All I am trying to say is that if the current trend continues the disparity will grow instead of 10 fairly new guys to kill a vet in current time frames in 5 years it will take 100 new guys to take down a vet meaning 10 vets banded together would take a thousand new guys. Again possible? maybe wont argue that.

Basically back to the point t3 and above content needs to go lateraly not vertically for the game to survive.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2005.07.13 04:28:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Sorja on 13/07/2005 04:29:08
When CCP first designed their game, they computed the skillpoints a pilot should have to fly battleships at optimal level.
Then, they decided how long it should take, and so they had the skillpoints/minute ratio.

When new technologies were introduced, they implemented 'advanced learnings' which should help keep training times reasonable, reason why vets say that newcomers have it easier than them, which is not true since learnings are an exercise in frustration because when you start the game you want to train skills that do things, not skills that help learning the usefull skills.

If tech III and whatnot is ever introduced, will they implement 'very advanced learnings', and for tech IV 'ultra very advanced learnings' and for tech V 'über learnings of doom'?

I guess not.
The skillpoints/minute ratio should be revised and I for one would like to see the learnings skills disappear (while it is unlikely to happen since EVE has no refund system to help shape your character to your likings and correct early mistakes).

What I've suggested for a long time is that you train faster the lower your skillpoints.
Just like in real life, in fact, where it takes much longer to master things the more complicated they get.
This would mean newcomers could train at a much faster pace than veterans and would indeed 'close the gap' one day or another while it is not possible now.

Another solution is to cut on the training times all over the board.
What today takes 15 days could be achieved in a week, for example.

Some like the grind to gain skills (which are experience points in disguise), some don't want newcomers to ever be on par with them (for obscure reasons), and some want everybody to have fun on a relatively equal playing field because, after all, this is a game.

Blind Fear
Amarr
Posted - 2005.07.13 05:04:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Blind Fear on 13/07/2005 05:05:40
Shockingly, I happen to partially agree with Sorja on something.

The skill system is ****ed. The promise of diminishing returns, the entire basis behind the balance between noobs and vets, has been quite literally burned to the ground with tech2 specializations and advanced skills.

Back in the day, where the only lvl 5 prereqs were rank 1 basic skills, the skill system was mostly balanced. You burn 1m SP training surgical strike 5, and you have a 3% damage increase over someone with it at lvl 4.

Now you have skills like the learning skills, with a massive and dramatic difference in effectiveness between lvl 4 and lvl 5. You have skills like advanced weapon upgrades that are the same thing.

Locking a substansial portion of the effectiveness of a skill tree behind lvl 5 skills is a mistake. It breaks the balance between noobs and vets, and the problem gets worse with every patch. This is the issue that will ultimately decide the fate of the game - can the skill system be retooled to return to the days of diminishing returns?

Please note that this entire post was partially unconstructive and will probably be deleted.

Brej Donierik
Posted - 2005.07.13 05:12:00 - [30]
 

I think it's quite obvious: their schedule for tech levels and skill release isn't set in stone and wasn't decided when the game was released. They're obviously altering their "schedule" based on a number of factors, of which one probably is the expected longevity of the game.

When things are going well, everything slows down. After all, we're "happy" with the content, why add more? People start leaving en masse, voila T3.

A second reason could have to do with the speed at which they can possibly code things.

But, maybe it's just me, but now and then you see the odd nerfing of existing features so that "new" features doing the same thing can be introduced, and of course the fact that T2 release isn't an automated process and is in fact totally dependent on when they feel like adding more blueprints isn't a coincidence.

After all, progressing tech levels, that's just mudflation, a thing to be "controlled" at all costs.


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