open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Missile Damage Formula discovered!
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.07.08 07:00:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 08/07/2005 07:00:22

I've FIGURED IT OUT! At least, the formula I'm using supports all of my data within a fraction of a decimal place in damage, which I pin down to rounding and error in data.

So, without further ado:

First, there are conditions that the formula must adhere to. Keep these in mind when making your final calculation.

If Target Signature Radius >= Missile Explosion Radius, then ( Target Signature Radius / Missile Explosion Radius ) = 1.0

If Target Velocity <= Missile Explosion Velocity, then ( Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity ) = 0.0

Missile Damage * (Target Signature Radius / Missile Explosion Radius) * e^( -1 * (Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity )^2 / (1500^2) ) = Final Missile Damage


This is definately too complicated to do casually, but I'm sure Mr. M will be happy to incorporate this equation into his missile damage calculator at www.evegeek.com

Anyhow, in conclusion, I'd like to thank everyone on this thread who's helped thus far (especially Petrus for getting me onto the Gaussian Curve route), and I'd also like to thank Badri and CDLPeacemaker for suffering through all my testing.

I also take donations in the form of isk, don't forget the zero in my name... Laughing

Monitio
Super Troopers Of Deadly Doom
Posted - 2005.07.08 07:12:00 - [2]
 

meh, try curing cancer...

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.07.08 07:23:00 - [3]
 

It probably wouldn't take as long as I spent solving this goddamn puzzle Laughing.

But in all honesty, couldn't have done it without the help of a few key members of the community who put me on the right track. Smile

MrRookie
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2005.07.08 07:30:00 - [4]
 

Nice. I`ll remember to convo you when i need help with my homework Very Happy

Dexter Rast
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
Posted - 2005.07.08 07:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 08/07/2005 07:00:22

I've FIGURED IT OUT! At least, the formula I'm using supports all of my data within a fraction of a decimal place in damage, which I pin down to rounding and error in data.

So, without further ado:

First, there are conditions that the formula must adhere to. Keep these in mind when making your final calculation.

If Target Signature Radius >= Missile Explosion Radius, then ( Target Signature Radius / Missile Explosion Radius ) = 1.0

If Target Velocity <= Missile Explosion Velocity, then ( Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity ) = 0.0

Missile Damage * (Target Signature Radius / Missile Explosion Radius) * e^( -1 * (Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity )^2 / (1500^2) ) = Final Missile Damage


This is definately too complicated to do casually, but I'm sure Mr. M will be happy to incorporate this equation into his missile damage calculator at www.evegeek.com

Anyhow, in conclusion, I'd like to thank everyone on this thread who's helped thus far (especially Petrus for getting me onto the Gaussian Curve route), and I'd also like to thank Badri and CDLPeacemaker for suffering through all my testing.

I also take donations in the form of isk, don't forget the zero in my name... Laughing


just play the gameWink

Blind Fear
Amarr
Posted - 2005.07.08 07:35:00 - [6]
 

Awesome.

Time to break out matlab and do some skill/damage graphs.

Malacore
Pilots Of Honour
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:08:00 - [7]
 

Ah...


...Electr0freak, proving daily that I have more of a life then someone, atleast.

Very Happy

Hellspawn666
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:13:00 - [8]
 

Cool must of took some work ncie to see a maths degree is useful for somthing :) im starting to use these weapons forumlas more nowadays with setup changes since there getting fairly accurate now so good work not that i have much isk spare:)

Sobeseki Pawi
Minmatar
Insurance Claim Services
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:16:00 - [9]
 

Hehe, was wondering how long it would take Razz

Deja Thoris
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:19:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dexter Rast
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK


:words:
Laughing


just play the gameWink


Actually, to play the game you need to understand the mechanics. People have been ridiculing Caldari for not adapting and whining.

Here is the perfect comeback. Understanding that formula will enable missile users to see what has the BIGGEST effect on damage and they will be able to setup and plan tactics accordingly.

Congrats Electr0Freak. Thats a worthy accomplishmentWink

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:22:00 - [11]
 

*Warning* Blatant whinge follows (but intended humourously)

As far as I can see the formula is a lot simpler...

If (ship) = "Raven" Then damage = 0

:-)

Really struggling to get my Raven to be a viable ship again...and no I'm NOT talking about soloing level 4's...but would be nice to do SOMEthing in it that doesn't require me having a retinue of 4 or 5 ships just to look after it...

In my defence I DID warn you it was a whinge...

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:26:00 - [12]
 

Excellent. Well done :)

The Pacman
Minmatar
Tri Optimum
Ev0ke
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:32:00 - [13]
 

Hi

as i wrote in the other thread (click here) i doubt it is the right formula.
Why? To many computation intensive parts to be handled by a server that has to be done houndreds or thousands of this in a minute.
Maybe we can discuss this in the other thread again - i've posted my result there.

bye
The Pacman

elFarto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.08 08:40:00 - [14]
 

Nice one Electr0, glad you figured it out.

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Missile Damage * (Target Signature Radius / Missile Explosion Radius) * e^( -1 * (Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity )^2 / (1500^2) ) = Final Missile Damage


1,500? What is this value ment to represent?

Regards
elFarto

Urfin
Amarr
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:14:00 - [15]
 

Nice work man, but it does seem a little too calc heavy to be real.

And what does the magic 1500 number stand for?

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:17:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 08/07/2005 09:19:54

The 1500 is just some wierd constant I found after a lot of playing hot and cold with a graph in my calculator. I got the curve right with the first part, but that 1500 stretches the graph left and right. So I just tried high values, low values, and narrowed down on it until I hit the right damage results.

Essentially, as a target travels faster and faster, missile damage decreases in a concave down shape, until the target velocity hits explosion velocity + 1500m/s, at which point the graph begins it's turn into concave up.


Petrus Illyusanov
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:19:00 - [17]
 

It looks like he fit the width of the guassian and got that. I would have thought they would have used the blast velocity itself...but they might have started with that and then tweeked the numbers.

The main effect here is that it downplays the effect of speed...it basically says you need to be going 1500 m/s faster than the blast velocity to dramatically reduce the damage.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:23:00 - [18]
 

Yep. Petrus, thanks again man, you're the one that figured out that it was a Gaussian Curve and put me right on track. Wish I'd thought of that sooner, woulda saved a LOT of time.Very Happy

Colthor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:28:00 - [19]
 

Good job on figuring it out Very Happy

elFarto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:29:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: elFarto on 08/07/2005 09:29:50
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 08/07/2005 09:19:54

The 1500 is just some wierd constant I found after a lot of playing hot and cold with a graph in my calculator. I got the curve right with the first part, but that 1500 stretches the graph left and right. So I just tried high values, low values, and narrowed down on it until I hit the right damage results.

Essentially, as a target travels faster and faster, missile damage decreases in a concave down shape, until the target velocity hits explosion velocity + 1500m/s, at which point the graph begins it's turn into concave up.


It just so happens the missiles have an attribute that is set to 1,500.

If you look at jide's item db here you'll see that the missiles have a 'AoeFalloff' value. It's set to 1,500 for all missiles and torps. I'm assuming the Aoe means Area of effect.

Hope that helps

Regards
elFarto

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:30:00 - [21]
 

1500 is in a property of missiles called AOERatio (sp?).

Anyway, I've produced a graph using Electro's forumlae. It represents the maximum damage a missile will do against a target that is stationary (V0) and moving at it's maximum speed (VM). It is not modified for skills.

You can find it here. Apologies for the crappiness of the Excel chart.

Petrus Illyusanov
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:41:00 - [22]
 

Ok then the orgin of the 1500 m/s is answered. This being the case the arguments the formula is wrong due to being too computationally intensive I think hold little water. He fits a guassian curve to his data and independantly produces something which is later confirmed to be correct says to me that the formula is right.

Also each gun shot done over optimal range uses a similier calculation (the chance to hit is a guassian distribution) from what I have seen.

Your welcome, no problem. Data analysis is what I do for a living.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.07.08 09:50:00 - [23]
 

Ah HA! Excellent! Doubtless that hidden value is there to allow the devs to insert faction and Tech 2 missiles that will be less effected by target speed! Missile Explosion Velocity + 1500 m/s is also the point where missile damage equals exactly base damage * 0.5. Thus, if the devs were to introduce a missile with a larger number than 1500, it would take higher speeds to achieve the same reduction in missile damage, essentially making them hit faster targets at less of a damage penalty.

Awesome! :)

Seramis
Caldari
Posted - 2005.07.08 10:56:00 - [24]
 

It seems there is something wrong with the missiles atm. I launched torpedos against a cruiser that was moving, made some hits with around 140 - 150damage each torp. Then i launched torpedos against a cruiser that did not move, overview showed 0m/s) and i only did 114 damage. I expected an increased value of speed slows down.

Mr M
Posted - 2005.07.08 10:59:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
This is definately too complicated to do casually, but I'm sure Mr. M will be happy to incorporate this equation into his missile damage calculator at www.evegeek.com


Fixed and done. Now I'm off to bed again

Very Happy

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2005.07.08 11:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: FireFoxx80
1500 is in a property of missiles called AOERatio (sp?).

Anyway, I've produced a graph using Electro's forumlae. It represents the maximum damage a missile will do against a target that is stationary (V0) and moving at it's maximum speed (VM). It is not modified for skills.

You can find it here. Apologies for the crappiness of the Excel chart.



Just a question... why does moving not affect dmg? mistake or do i read chart wrong. Because it seems that torpedos (and all other stuff) do same dmg no matter if target is moving or not.

lythos miralbar
The Fifth Ace
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2005.07.08 11:37:00 - [27]
 

You sir are a damm genius.. 1000 outa 10 for persistence.. GJ Very Happy

And who cares if its is the "right formula", eg exactly the same. If it works surely thats all that matters????

slip66
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2005.07.08 11:49:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Monitio
meh, try curing cancer...


lol

elFarto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.08 12:07:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: elFarto on 08/07/2005 12:22:55
Originally by: LUKEC
Just a question... why does moving not affect dmg? mistake or do i read chart wrong. Because it seems that torpedos (and all other stuff) do same dmg no matter if target is moving or not.


You right, on both counts. Speed does effect damage, and the chart shows no difference in damage between V0 and VM (except the Suttle and Ibis vs. a torp).

There is a simple explaination for this. The ships aren't going fast enough to out run the explosion velocity.

In the Ibis vs. torp example, the torp has a explosion velocity of 250m/sec and the Ibis has a max velocity of 260m/sec. Plugging the values into the missile equation gives you:

Damage = base damage * MIN(ship sig/explosion radius,1) * EXP(-1 * (MAX(ship speed-explosion velocity,0)^2) / (1500^2))

450 * MIN(45/500,1) * EXP(-1 * (MAX(260-250,0)^2) / (1500^2)) = 40.5

Hmmmm...somethings wrong here, either FireFoxx80's graph or my calculation.

But anyway, speed does make a difference, you just need alot of it to make a big difference.

*edit* As FireFoxx80 pointed out, explosion radius is 500m not 250m (which is explosion velocity). Updated equation.

Regards
elFarto

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.07.08 12:12:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 08/07/2005 12:36:48
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 08/07/2005 12:18:50
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 08/07/2005 12:13:11
Originally by: LUKEC
Originally by: FireFoxx80
1500 is in a property of missiles called AOERatio (sp?).

Anyway, I've produced a graph using Electro's forumlae. It represents the maximum damage a missile will do against a target that is stationary (V0) and moving at it's maximum speed (VM). It is not modified for skills.

You can find it here. Apologies for the crappiness of the Excel chart.



Just a question... why does moving not affect dmg? mistake or do i read chart wrong. Because it seems that torpedos (and all other stuff) do same dmg no matter if target is moving or not.


These are for the maximum speed of the ship, in only very few cases (shuttle and raptor) does the ships standard maximum exceed the explosion velocity of a torpedo (250m/s).

Afterburners will increase this speed, and hence decrease the effect of the explosion velocity. But MWD's will increase your signature radius also, you may be able to out run the missile, but if you don't you're more of a target.

I will do another chart to better explain the effect of ship's speed.

el farto, look at the explosion radius in your equation, it's 500(?), not 250


Pages: [1] 2 3 4

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only