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Damon Vile
Amarr
AUS Corporation
CORE.
Posted - 2003.07.10 08:27:00 - [1]
 

There is no question CCP will never allow player pirates to gate camp in empire space. I don't really have a problem with that.

I think they should be able to roam empire space and pick ppl off in belts though. 0.4 and lower there should be no responce from concord. 0.6 - 0.5 slow like 3 or 4 mins and 1.0 to 0.7 insta warp in.

All gates in empire space should remain combat free. Way too much whining goes on there and it's not going to happen anyway. If they are going to let some gates get camped to catch the traders keep it to 0.3 and lower maybe. ( 0.4 obiviously wasn't working out :P )

Pirates couldn't get the 100's of pods/ hr but they could blackmail groups of miners they happen to catch out in the field, or kill them :). It would also take some skill to find and catch ppl...unlike gate camping.

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.10 09:18:00 - [2]
 

hehehe, m0o warps into a belt and the miners scramble like roaches when you turn the lights on.

Andrea Jade
Free Hands of Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.10 09:18:00 - [3]
 

Yeah i fully agree, i think the way CCp have handled this isnt very good. Whats the point of being a pirate if you cant attack empire space? I think it completly knocks down an aspect of the game which was always advertised as being there. I mean its evn on the back of the box; 'or the most neforious pirate in the galaxy'
I mean thats what EVEs meant to be about. I fully agree player pirates should be allowed in 0.6 down. Its no fun without pirates

-andrea jade-

Recruting Officer of Everlasting vendetta. 169 members must be doing somthing right ;)

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.07.10 09:28:00 - [4]
 

"hehehe, m0o warps into a belt and the miners scramble like roaches when you turn the lights on."

Except those 3/4th who's been AFK for the last couple of hours.... :s

"I left my ship mining so i'd get rich quick and all i got was this stupid pod"

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.10 12:35:00 - [5]
 

Killing miners isnít profitable and traders donít hang out in asteroid fields.

We need a place to be able to intercept traders. Jump gates were the logical and only place to do this. Every once in a while you may catch someone at a system jump in point but that was pretty rare.

Give traders a reason to go into non-empire controlled space and the situation will improve a bit.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.07.10 13:32:00 - [6]
 

"Killing miners isnít profitable (..)"

I'd figure. What about squeezing money out of the miners so they don't lose their precious ship and cargo, though?.. Some of those ships are worth quite a bit, and so does the ore they can fit. Given the choice when caught, between still making some part of the potential profit, and getting back home in the pod.... well. :S

Edited by: j0sephine on 10/07/2003 13:32:43

Quantum Enforcer
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2003.07.10 19:13:00 - [7]
 

Pirates can't gate camp? They can't use gates? I have just two words...

Jump Drive! :) Bookmarks are tradable. Asteroid fields can be scouted and marked.

Of course a lone ship (Titan?) jumping into a system would most likely be very vulnerable without support if they face a properly organized resistance. Can Titans carry fighters on board for defense?

Jericho
Posted - 2003.07.10 19:30:00 - [8]
 

I have an idea... let's patch one last time. Take all the PvP out and no way to kill anything but NPC's... oh and make some lame assed missions for extra skill points. We can rename this to.... uhhh .... Earth & Beyond!!!

OMFG... it is getting silly now. To take a perfectly good PvP game and advertise it that way... then nerf the hell out of it.

Jericho
Posted - 2003.07.10 19:33:00 - [9]
 

One last thing...

http://eve.skjalfti.is/trailers/Eve_Trailer_9a.wmv

I bet this guy is pirating in Empire Space...

Edited by: Jericho on 10/07/2003 19:34:07

Tsaya
Posted - 2003.07.10 21:23:00 - [10]
 

The guy in the trailer built an empire of his own, definetely NOT in empire space.

And, yeah, ccp overreacted a bit, as some of you do atm (greets jericho ;)

__________________________________________________

PvP is not only combat! PvP combat is not only piracy, Piracy is just one part of it! Piracy is not only blowing people up on sight!
__________________________________________________

So blowing people up on sight has no profit atm in empire space, and maybe is dead, but thats one f&%$"! small part of pvp.

Scrambling and blackmailing people f.e. is possible in belts, and there are a lot of people out there mining in expensive cruisers, with only drones as a weak defense.

Heck, even some pirates did piracy that way before turrets arrived at low sec gates.

The point to which i agree is that trading is too profitable for the risk. Trade routes in empire space should imho be severly nerfed (yes, exactly, that hated word) by setting all demand and supply quantities lower, so that its only worthwhile for people who dont have access to cruiser mining yet. For higher profits and profitable trading in industrials one should be forced to leave empire space and supply stations outside of it (of which a lot would need to be added, which is needed anyway, if player stations dont appear soon).

P.S: to the initial poster: sorry for the rant, but i cant bear some things that were posted here anymore. Im just so tired of so-called pvp players whining.

Edited by: Tsaya on 10/07/2003 21:35:33

Arondos
Minmatar
Old Timers Guild
Posted - 2003.07.10 21:33:00 - [11]
 

Or a pirate can just be smart. Instead of being an idiot and podding people(serial killer). You declare war. Blow up ships and don't lose security status...You can operate all you want to in empire space because you play by "the rules" of the game.

Scruluse
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.10 22:22:00 - [12]
 

Here's another idea: How about pirates find a way to work around the law. The law/law enforcers are going to adapt to the way criminals are doing things so criminals are going to have to change the way THEY do things. Just like in RL. If you are a pirate then you have chosen a very difficult profession to persue so you might as well get used to it.

EDIT: btw, I agree that using a scrambler in empire space lowering sec rating is a big mistake. CCP, please rethink this.

Edited by: Scruluse on 10/07/2003 22:24:10

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.10 22:50:00 - [13]
 

Arondos, any idiot can get around the war vulnerability simply by creating a trade mule.

You can be inside a hoarder within a day out of character creation, if you choose your skills right. Stay inside the newbie corp and trade till your heart is content inside Empire space. Need minerals for manufacturing in your real corp? Miner alts to the resuce!

Wars are for Corp vs Corps and are not profitable.

Hampstah
Chosen Path
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2003.07.10 23:14:00 - [14]
 

<<Or a pirate can just be smart. Instead of being an idiot and podding people(serial killer). You declare war. Blow up ships and don't lose security status...You can operate all you want to in empire space because you play by "the rules" of the game.>>

Why would a pirate have to Declare War to hijack someone? War implies a known opponent and existing hostilities.

Piracy is about being a bad guy - robbing, stealing, and even murdering. The box specifically states that becoming "nefarious" is an option. This not the case and piracy will die out soon under the current rules. If CCP states this is their desire then fine, i'll change my playstyle.

As it is I feel like they switched a huge portion of the game's direction without warning or recompense. If I am forced to go "legit" i should at least have a way to raise my security status that doesn't take 2 years.






Ends
Ends Journey
Posted - 2003.07.11 01:37:00 - [15]
 

I am very greatful for the pirates being pushed out of empire space. They should stay that way.

Seraph Warbird
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2003.07.11 02:29:00 - [16]
 

If your a pirate in empire space you deserved to be shot. You become a pirate hence, you are a criminal and you think that in a sector that has police is gonna let you waltz in like your somebody important!? Stupid request.

Zeidrich
Caldari
Orion Mining
Posted - 2003.07.11 03:10:00 - [17]
 

Disclaimer: I'm a carebear, I have a +0.9 sec rating from killing a billion pirates post-"0.0001 sec/pirate" patch, I've never pirated or killed a player.

The problem isn't that pirates want to be killing in empire space without any consequence, the problem is there's no reward to being a pirate. The ideal for a pirate would be massive risk for massive reward.

The problem is that there's no reward. Sure, you can maybe kill miners if you're lucky, or the odd person travelling through 0.0 space, but if you're in 0.0 space, chances are you're going to have little of value.

The problem is that all the value is kept within empire space, for instance, I'm running a trade route at the moment, I've got a few million isk worth of stuff, all in my indy. And I'm not even watching it. I know that I'm invulnerable. For instance, I went through a 0.5 security area, and it had about 8 concord cruisers and a concord battleship at the gate. I only ever stop at 2 kinds of places, one is jump gates, the other is stations. Otherwise I'm in warp. So the only time I'm possibly at risk is at a jump gate, or at a station. Sentry guns and missile launching televisions and insta-porting concord battleships mean that I could go to sleep about now, and I'd be totally fine, drifting in space, with my millions of isk cargo.

In the time that it's taken me to write this post, I've made 3/4 of a million isk. It was boring enough that I didn't have to watch the screen, it was risk free enough that I didn't even have to watch the screen, and for a pirate to make that kind of money outside of empire space in the same amount of time, they've either got to be killing NPC's, which is not really even pirating, or pretty dang lucky.

The problem is I've got millions of isk worth of cargo, and while it should be hard for pirates to take me out, it should be possible, then it introduces a risk to trading, it introduces a reward to piracy, and it makes it so I'm not bored out of my mind and actually have to at least watch the screen while I"m making my millions.

Wil Rufus
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.11 04:06:00 - [18]
 

I think for me the problem isn't about having pirates in Empire space. I've personaly never came across them, even though I spend a lot of time in low sec systems. I use the map, and keep an eye out on the local channel to see who's there.

The problem for me was that you had large groups in well equipped ships roaming about picking off single ships.

A few ships acting indipendently are pirates, a mass of ships camping a star gate is an invasion force.

Two or three pirate groups were able to mass enough numbers that they were almost unbeatable. The only non pirate corps who may have been able to go against them on an equal footing soon realised that it was more ecconomically viable to pay the tolls rather then get involved in a large scale war which would at best cripple them.

For pirating to work, a pirate has to be an individual, hunting alone as a rule, at the most in small groups of two or three ships, constantly on the move, in Empire space at least, and knowing that every law enforcement agent will be hot on their trail.

What we saw was an invasion by a large hostile force which was responded to by the full weight of the Empire forces.
After all. A couple of muggers will draw the attention of the local 'doughnut eaters' for a short time, that is a couple of cops having a look around, usually after the act and perhaps some higher profile policing, again after the act. A large scale criminal organization will get hit by SWAT teams, and even military special forces in regular pre planned raids.

I agree that at the moment Eve is a much safer, yet much duller place. It needs a system in place that will let small groups of individuals pirate in the fringes (low sec systems)but stops the whole sale massing of unstopperble invasion forces as we saw.

MoonDragn
Caldari
J0urneys End
Posted - 2003.07.11 05:04:00 - [19]
 

Even mining basic minerals I can make more cash per hour than the highest profit trade route. I just don't understand why people think traders make the most money?

Heck even hunting pirates I can make way more than MOST trade routes in an hour. 20k bounty every 2 mins = 600k/hour + Loot

People out there are too stuck on trade routes. Which often takes 7+ jumps nowadays for a 1 mil profit at most(hard to find any more profit than this now)... and thats 14 jumps round trip.. taking more than 1 hour.

Thats risking a full cargo worth aprox 15-20 mil... I don't see why anybody in their right mind would risk that much for that little profit.


Edited by: MoonDragn on 11/07/2003 05:05:20

Master Scy
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.11 05:24:00 - [20]
 

MoonDragon, the problem is that 90% of the population is now happily able to afford a battleship within a month of AFK trading, with absolutely no risk. Making empire space AFK space will also kill a lot of the frigate and cruiser market as fewer people will be needing replacements.

Sadistic Savior
Caldari
3vil Enterprises
Posted - 2003.07.11 05:30:00 - [21]
 

I agree that pirates should be able to roam Empire space...but I dont get why PC pirates dont think they should expect retaliation for committing crimes. Thats just common sense.

Make it realistic; lower the sec of the system, the longer the police take to respond and/or the weaker the police are. Prolonged occupation of the system WOULD result in increased response however. Why wouldnt an Empire defend it's own space?

Playing as a pirate doesnt = free reign to do whatever the hell you want...which is what a lot of pirates seem to want. Pirating SHOULD be difficult. Even the most powerfull criminal organizations in the world cant just go ant take over florida because they are bored...because there are consequences for doing so.

But I agree it should not be impossible. I agree about the Sentry gun thing...Sentries should be a deterrant to gate camping in Empire space only, and they should be weaker/fewer the lower sec the system is. Thats reasonable. But even .1 systems should have police/sentry presence of SOME kind.

Sadistic Savior
Caldari
3vil Enterprises
Posted - 2003.07.11 05:31:00 - [22]
 



Edited by: Sadistic Savior on 11/07/2003 05:34:14

Soul Reaver
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.11 09:37:00 - [23]
 

The bottom line is this. If you have no-one destroying ships you will have no market as no-one will need a relacement ship and No-one will need ammo etc. Volia dead game within 2 months. This is because of a kneejerk reaction by CCP to pander to the so called needs of a few whining carebears. Net result is we now have even the traders complaining that their game is boring because there is no risk. In any game in order to make it fun you need to actually have the chance of losing something. If there is no chance of losing something then you have a very boring game indeed. That type of game revolves around hoarding things and soon wears thin. The balance in this game has now gone in the other direction (to far) I now read a book when Im flying through empire space in order to get where I am going. I have never read a book in my life whilst playing a game but in this game I can (how sad is that) I can do this because I know that nothing can attack me whilst on these routes. No risk at all nice and fluffy and safe. All I have to do is keep an eye on the auto pilot and settle in for a good read. I dont know what the answer is here. All I can say is someone somewhere got his way (hope they are happy) and this is the end result.
For a game that I bought as being advertised Player versus player its pathetic.






Edited by: Soul Reaver on 11/07/2003 09:38:11

Jericho
Posted - 2003.07.11 14:09:00 - [24]
 

Thanks for not flaming me Tsaya :)

Anyway, I did over react a bit, but the point is the same. Why are NPC pirates allowed to camp gates and belts and remain in Empire space. When they do attack, why doesn't Empire respond with force. Because it is NPC, that's why. The rules should apply across the board.

Right now, the only thing that is truly "PLAYER" driven, is the economy, i.e. Trade and Market. The player should also drive the threat. Does this make sense to anyone?

Probably not... just me :)

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2003.07.11 14:28:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Or a pirate can just be smart. Instead of being an idiot and podding people(serial killer). You declare war. Blow up ships and don't lose security status...You can operate all you want to in


Fool. That wouldnt be piracy and a war takes 24hrs to kick in. How can you make a profit doing that?

Apart from this dude, most of you guys all have good valid points.

What your forgetting is that this isnt real life, we dont need to be punished for being bad! Basically there is an unwritten rule that pirates shouldnt be able to have fun and should have functionality of the game impaired for them. It is then justified with a "Well you broke the law so its your fault". ITS A GAME. Why not just have us banned for piracy and be done with it.


I thought of a solution. Please go here to comment on it
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=19477

I know you hate us, but cant you see we have just as valid a right to a good game as you do, and while you just pour money into the economy, doing boring and mostly solo things and make prices go down, we add risk and excitment and therefore help prices rise, so who is better for the game?

Arondos
Minmatar
Old Timers Guild
Posted - 2003.07.11 14:40:00 - [26]
 

While yes I will agree I think the patch went overboard on the police response to minor issues. However, I still think pirates are outlaws and should have to live like outlaws.

A "nefarious" pirate shouldn't have access to everything a law abiding citizen does. You don't see someone on the most wanted list walking down main street randomly machine gunning people then walking into the local grocery store to buy food. In real life, if they did they wouldn't be doing it for long. Why not? Law enforcement will crush them.

Before unless you got just plain stupid there was no risk to pirating. It was get a couple ships, sit at a gate, ride the indy milk train, warp to an instadock at a station belonging to the empire who's space you are being a pirate in at the first sign of trouble.

And for the comment on me hating pirates. Nah. I just think if you want to act like an outlaw in empire space there should be consequences for your actions. And if you think I am a care bear just come find me. Bears have teeth and claws.

Edited by: Arondos on 11/07/2003 14:46:57

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2003.07.11 14:46:00 - [27]
 

Quote:

Bears have teeth and claws.


And Pirates have guns. Next.. Seriously tho that comment wasnt directed at you in particular. And if you try to use your teeth and guns on me, youll probably die to sentry guns or over-zealous floating adverts.



Quote:
I've personaly never came across them


Quote:
Two or three pirate groups were able to mass enough numbers that they were almost unbeatable. The only non pirate corps who may have been able to go against them on an equal footing soon realised that it was more ecconomically viable to pay the tolls rather then get involved in a large scale war which would at best cripple them.



These 2 statements belong together
m0o wasnt near unbeatable in Passari because of better numbers, hell there were rarely more than 6 or 8 people there, split between the gates, most of the time 2 - 4. The reason people died to them was that they had been enjoying a minimum risk game up to that point and so were unprepared. A well equipped indy can run any pirate blockade. (MWD or multi afterburners/overdrives do the trick).

Quote:

A large scale criminal organization will get hit by SWAT teams, and even military special forces in regular pre planned raids.

No a large scale organisation will bribe the cops to turn a blind eye

Quote:
14 jumps round trip.. taking more than 1 hour.


Yeah if you do it in a Battleship with cargo expander... its easily possible in a well fitted indy in 20-25mins



Can i just ask why all you empire space peeps want battleships? Less cargo than an indy, only marginally more mining laser turrets than a cruiser. I mean comeon, its not like you need them for defence is it.

In beta we could kill sentry guns at one point, now they are invulnerable. Everyone goes on about "Pirate incursions into empire space" but its impossible because when your fleet gets to a jumpgate you lose all your armor to the guns straight away.

There is no point to sec space, everywhere now is either 1.0 or 0.0. And the main problem is 3/4 of all space with people in it is 1.0


Quote:
Instead of being an idiot and podding people(serial killer).

People keep saying this but it is crap. You cant apply RL dynamics to ingame systems, at least certainly not current ones.

We are not talking about a well established society here, its 4+ split, badly policed ones who have little control. Its better to think of it like The old West in the US. Outlaws and InLaws alike killed hundreds of people, noone called them serial killers. During the Civil war, hundreds of women and children were shot or burnt in their homes by soldiers and opportunists.
Outlaws didnt have to hide in the desert all the time, they could go back to the towns as long as they remained low profile.
If they were good, noone would ever find out theyd broken the law anyway.

I mean how does concord tell Ive just shot and killed a ship in a 0.1 roid belt??? How does it know Ive warpjammed someone in the middle of nowhere? Its a stupid system.

Anyway, here is my solution again
br http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=19477






Edited by: Lallante on 11/07/2003 14:53:10

Kalhan
Amarr
Omega Engineering Inc.
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2003.07.11 14:49:00 - [28]
 

This game is not ready for something like that most of the older longer players are pirates like the MOO corp. have been playing for awhile. If you haven't noticed this causes a problem. If you are going to PvP then you need to be handycapped, for awhile untill this game can be fixed (meaning adding some of the suggestions you mentioned which could be added when they add player made stations). Right now the older players have too much money and power ( maining because of early bugs and exploits that got them those funds. It is alot harder the make money then it use to be. Your in the MOO corp. you can make your own market out in 0.0 space you just have to manufacture and research it yourself. Goto 0.0 space take over the region and setup shop make your own skills for your newbie (so they don't have to travel in pads the get them and so on...) the only way to make this game truely balanced now is to make delete every Char and make everybody startover.
<pre>
( )
Moo (00)
\/------ || | ||---W|| *
|| ||
</pre>

Spaja Saist
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2003.07.11 15:28:00 - [29]
 

I guess I just don't understand what all the pirates are crying about. There are plenty of targets out in 0.0 non empire space. Hell that's where most of the corps get there rare minerals. The only problem I see is they tend to be better defended since they aren't a bunch of noobs that are easy pickings. Maybe that's what all the pirates are whining about, they can't pod noobs anymore.

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2003.07.11 15:38:00 - [30]
 

thats right you dont know what we are talking about, you dont know what you are either tho it seems. Please follow the link in my previous post for an explanation


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