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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.13 16:19:00 - [1]
 

Figured I'd post this here, because it'll just get spammed off 'general discussion'.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.13 16:19:00 - [2]
 

Electronic warfare, particularly target jamming, has recently been revised to be chance based.

The probability of jamming is 'per module' and is a direct comparison if jamming strength, vs. sensor strength.

What this means is that with only 1 module, you still have a chance of jamming a battleship. But it also means that if you have 6, you're not _guaranteed_ to do so.

A multispectral jammer has a strength of 4.

Against a ship with a sensor strength of 10, this means it has a 40% chance of successfully jamming, for 20 seconds, each (20 second) cycle.

4 strength 4 jammers gives a compound probability of 87% vs this strength 10 target.

1 - ( 1 - ( 4 / 10 ) ) ^ 4

Given they cycle every 20 seconds, optimal jamming is achieved by staggering the start, and only jamming if you were unsuccessful. So with 4 jammers, starting 1 every 5 seconds. (Assuming you failed on previous attempts). The reason being that lock time remains a factor.

ECMs are currently effective against NPCs now. Most ships you encounter are within a few points of a 'standard' ship of their class. Some few (mercenary commanders, and 'nameds') cheat, and have 20 in all strengths. Sentry guns also, as a rule, have high sensor strengths (e.g. 100 in all).

Rogue drones have poor sensors, all magnetometric, and all frigate strength or less. (except for the odd rogue drone parasite, which has 20 to all again).

Target painters are the other new innovation. They increase a target's signature radius. This means that they are easier to hit with 'large' caliber weaponry. If I recall correctly, signature of gun/signature of ship is a factor in the 'hit' probability.

These are effective at the current time, at boosting damage dealt by a gunship. With upcoming missile changes, this will also have an impact on missile launchers, but the precise magnitude remains to be seen.

Sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, webbers and scramblers remain mostly unchanged, except for having an optimal and falloff.

Dampeners reduce targeting range and sensor resolution. This reduces their ability to (re) lock a target. A less known side effect is that FoF missiles only target as far as the ship's targeting range. The 'basic' dampener reduces max range and sensor resolution by 35%. (T2/best named 48%). The target will lose lock if you are outside their (new) targeting range.

Tracking disruptors reduce the tracking modifier on the targeted ship, meaning they have less chance to hit a fast moving target. The Tracking disruptor 1 reduces tracking and max range on a ship by 32.5%. (T2 46%). (Unclear as to whether this is optimal, falloff, or both). The effectiveness is therefore dependant on the target ship, but the effects are fairly obvious. Doesn't appear to be used very often, probably because it's better for small ships vs. large ships - at which point multiple sensor dampeners might well be more effective, as it also effects missile boats.

Stasis webber reduces speed of the target ship by 75% (more for nameds) this has recently been changed to a 5 second cycle time, rather than the previous 20. The benefits of doing so should be obvious - they become easier to hit by 'larger' weaponry, and missiles. It also means they have a harder job of leaving range of a scrambler or other close range weapon.

Warp scramblers/disruptors still stop someone going to warp. They're countered by warp core stabilisers. The scrambler is strength 2 and 7.5km, the disruptor strength 1, and 20km. Their usage is situational. A scrambler will stop someone with 1 wcs. A disruptor won't, but it'll work at 20km. There's the argument that a 'real' PvPer doesn't use WCS, because that's a 'wasted' slot - you might die without it, because you can't warp. But would you be more likely to win if you use that low for another hardner, armour repper, power diag, nanofiber etc.

There has been discussion of changing webbers and scramblers to be 'racial' and again have a chance based jamming. As far as I can tell, this means they'll have a similar percentage chance based system to the current ECMs, improved if you get right race, vs. right race.

Each of the above now has an 'optimal' and a 'falloff'. This works in exactly the same way as you're used to on guns - below optimal, 100% effectiveness. Above it drops to 0 at 2 x falloff.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.13 16:23:00 - [3]
 

To supplement EW now, there are the following skills:
Electronic warfare - reduces capacitor usage of ECM, rather than the previous increase to cycle time)
Frequency Modulation - increases falloff of painters, dampers, disruptors and ECMs by 10% per level
Long Distance jamming - increases optimal of above by 5% per level.
Propulsion jamming - reduces cap use of webbers, rather than extending cycle time.
Sensor linking - reduces cap use of remote sensor dampeners, rather than the previous extended cycle time
Signal Dispersal - boosts target jammers strength by 5% per level.
Signal Suppression - increases remote sensor dampeners scan resolution and target range penalty by 5% per level
Signal Focusing - increases effect of target painters by 5% per level
Weapon disruption - 5% less capacitor needed by tracking disruptors
Turret Destabilization - 5% bonus to disruptors tracking penalty, and optimal range per level

Between a 7.2 racial, 5 levels of signal dispersal, and level 5 caldari battleship (in a scorpion) the strength of a target jammer can be bumped up to 12.35. This is good enough for a >50% jamming probability (per module) against most battleships.

I've found mixing remote dampeners and target jammers to be most effective, as breaking their lock and then ensuring that they can't re-lock quickly means that more targets can be successfully locked down. (Since it then doesn't matter so much if you 'miss' a cycle, as they can't relock you before it cycles again)

There are also ECCM modules, which add to your sensor strength, and ECCM projectors, which add to the sensor strength of another ship. At best guess, if you have 'strength' vs. different sensor types, the jamming module has to overcome both.

If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.

So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have:
(6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3
(e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)

Or to take a less extreme case, a 4 pt backup array of the same type, would take a 10 pt sensor to 14.

42% rather than 60%.

But of a different type, against a racial, that would work out as:
6/10 * 2/4 e.g. 30%

Unfortunately, ECCM projectors and backup arrays seem to fall into the same category as warp core stablisers. Useless unless you come up against the specific threat you're countering. So as a rule, you're better off fitting 'general' purpose agressive module.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.13 16:23:00 - [4]
 

(can anyone confirm/deny the jamming rate of ECCM and projectors? I'll be doing some tests later to try and figure out whether that model fits observed results)

Earthan
Gallente
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2005.06.13 17:24:00 - [5]
 

good readthanks.I am playing seldom fromsome time have hard time catching up with all this.

Crom Dubh
Posted - 2005.06.13 20:39:00 - [6]
 

As a new player I would dearly love some advice on the EW front. I want to make my character an EW based one as I intend to spend a lot of time as a courier and would rather avoid trouble if i can. This is mind, can u advise me on the sort of skills i should go for first to give me a good foundation to build on. I also intend to buy a Maulau as soon as I am capable. For its EW bonus and becuse Ilove the look of it. What would be a good starting set up for this ship?
Any advice offered will be much appreciated

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.13 22:12:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 13/06/2005 22:21:44
Originally by: Crom Dubh
As a new player I would dearly love some advice on the EW front. I want to make my character an EW based one as I intend to spend a lot of time as a courier and would rather avoid trouble if i can. This is mind, can u advise me on the sort of skills i should go for first to give me a good foundation to build on. I also intend to buy a Maulau as soon as I am capable. For its EW bonus and becuse Ilove the look of it. What would be a good starting set up for this ship?
Any advice offered will be much appreciated


The Maulus is a ship geared up towards remote sensor dampening.
As such, the skills you want to be focussing on are:
Electronic warfare.
Sensor linking 4
Signal Suppression (requires sensor linking 4). (more power on the dampeners)
Long range jamming. (more range)
Frequency modulation. (again, more range)
Cruiser skill.

It's probably worth working towards signal dispersal too, as target jammers work well when combined with remote sensor dampeners.

This is, of course, in addition to the 'usual' engineering and electronics skills you'd be looking at training.

You may find, if you're interested in EW, that training towards caldari battleship is in order - the scorpion is (at least, as far as I recall) the only EW specialised battleship.

anubs
Flaming Pink Dragons of Maple Syrup
Posted - 2005.06.13 22:47:00 - [8]
 

just get cald bs to 4 and sig disperion to 3

fit 6 racials jammers on ur scorp 2 for each race and u can jam up to 3 bs's at once and have no problems

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.14 15:27:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: James Lyrus on 14/06/2005 15:27:35
Originally by: anubs
just get cald bs to 4 and sig disperion to 3

fit 6 racials jammers on ur scorp 2 for each race and u can jam up to 3 bs's at once and have no problems


That'll only jam ships of 3 of the races - if you come up against the 4th, then you're going to be in trouble.

Although actually, rather than splitting your jammers if you don't know the target, I believe mathematically your're better off with 4 multispecs rather that 1 of each racial. (aside from cap usage).

4 x multispec vs. strength 10 ship:
P(fail) = 1 - 4/10
P(fail 4 times) = (1 - 4/10) ^ 4 = 0.1296
87% success rate.

4 racial,
P(fail on all) = ( 1 - 6/10 ) * ( 1 - 2/10 ) ^ 4 = 0.204
80% success rate.

vs. a battleship with a 20 sensor strength, you're looking at 60% vs. 49%. Assuming, of course, that no skills are involved.

You can't guarantee you'll be fighting opponents (in PvP) that match up to your racial jammer configuration, so you're better off with multispecs. Although the increased cap usage may become an issue.

Of course, this doesn't apply when you know what the target is, e.g. if you're going PvE, or have a scout.

Ademaro Imre
Caldari
Posted - 2005.06.17 19:51:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 17/06/2005 20:20:23
Please clarify this for me, the chance to jam - is recalculated every cycle? If that is the case - is that the reason for the 'cycle jamming,' starting a new jammer to keep a lock on if the original module fails in new cycle?


The skill book for Long Distance Jamming describes a bonus os 10% bonus to optimal range per level. So far the 10% bonus seems to work. Appears that the skill bonus is multiplied by what the ship bonus adds.

Ademaro Imre
Caldari
Posted - 2005.06.17 20:22:00 - [11]
 

Please clarify this for me, is the chance to jam recalculated every cyctem time? If so - is that the reasoning for the 'cycle jamming' - to keep a ship locked with a hopefully successfull 2nd module should the first module fail?

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.06.17 20:24:00 - [12]
 

Concerning the chance to successfully jam a target, I prefer using an AND probability with your chance to fail, then subtracting from 1. IE, using 4 jammers with 4 strength versus a target with 10 sensor strength (40% chance to succeed, 60% chance to fail), you do 1 - (.6 * .6 * .6 * .6) = 0.8704, or approximately 87% chance to succeed. I find it a lot easier to calculate than the more complicated formulas, and it also allows you to mix different chances (multispecs, racials, named modules) into the equation.

H0ot
Posted - 2005.06.18 15:44:00 - [13]
 

How does optimal/falloff work for ECM mods?

For example:

With Frequency Modulation IV and Caldari Battleship IV on paper I get 79km Optimal and 25km Falloff. The Falloff is much much lower because of the 20% Optimal bonus on the Scorpion.

Does this mean that if my target drops below 54 i'd be in trouble? And that there is no way to jam someone at closer ranges (say below 20km?)

Maybe i'm doing something wrong here, I havn't had a chance yet to test this in the field. if you could elaborate on the falloff/optimal of multispecs i'd be very greatful. ugh

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.18 15:48:00 - [14]
 

Optimal and falloff works exactly the same as on guns.

Below optimal, your 'success' rate is 100% of normal. (Or disruption percentage, or target signature increase).

Above optimal, you have a reduced probability. That's approximately 50% at Optimal + falloff, and 0% at Optimal + falloff + falloff. It's not linear, but it's linear-ish.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.06.18 15:58:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Please clarify this for me, is the chance to jam recalculated every cyctem time? If so - is that the reasoning for the 'cycle jamming' - to keep a ship locked with a hopefully successfull 2nd module should the first module fail?


Each time a module 'cycles' then a jamming calculation is peformed. The reason you take several modules, is because there's a chance of the first jam failing. At which point, you can activate your second, for another chance.

'cycle' jamming used to be a trick with the old style jammers, where you'd jam 1 target, then move on to the next - because they'd take some time to re-lock. It still works to an extent, since you can jam 1 target, then jam his friend with the next 'cycle' and if you're lucky they won't have much chance to fire, with a bad re-lock time.

Said relock time can also be worsened with sensor dampeners and sensor dampeners always work (although, obviously they don't do 100% like target jammers).

So with a 'few' remote dampeners, and some target jammers, you can jam, then damp a target, such that their re-lock time is too high for them to be able to fire. At which point you can cycle targets on your jammers, and effectively stop multiple ships at once.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2005.06.18 16:50:00 - [16]
 

a couple of things:

painters affect tracking primarly:

effective tracking against target = (target sig/gun sig)*base_tracking

Painters and Remote dampers, afaik falloff affects effectiveness and not chance. they are 100% chance, but effectiveness goes from 100% to 0% @ 2*falloff, or so it seems.

Likely it follows the quasi-sine wave curve of gun falloff.


.. i might be wrong about the 2nd one, but i havent seen my painter miss yet.

FlyinFish Shriker
Caldari
Posted - 2005.07.03 18:10:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus

If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.

So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have:
(6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3
(e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)



Is this part tested or anyone can confirm this?
It seems a ship with an ECCM projector is almost unable to be jammed -- 0.4%

Lowa
Gallente
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2005.07.03 18:32:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Originally by: James Lyrus

If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.

So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have:
(6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3
(e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)



Is this part tested or anyone can confirm this?
It seems a ship with an ECCM projector is almost unable to be jammed -- 0.4%


IMHO I say skip the ECCM stuff, its only in the way of other
more useful modules as it does not help that much.

Also, my experience is actually 2 things:
1. If I'm close to my target I get a lower chance of success.
Dont know if its actually so, but so far jamming targets
at 60km+ have had a better success rate.

2. Even if the overview say you have jammed a target it does not
mean that it actually is!
We have seen at atleast 2 incidents where targets have
been jammed but still fireing and killing stuff.


Cheers,
LOWA

MrMedister
Posted - 2005.07.07 21:42:00 - [19]
 

Sticky!

Alerce
Posted - 2005.07.07 21:56:00 - [20]
 

Well i fitted a target jammer and what i noticed is ,against a lot of npcs, it means i use less cap on shield boosting, because at 1 least big ship wont hit me that often anymore over time.

Basically i save more cap, then i would get by fitting an extra cap recharger.

Kyse
Posted - 2005.07.07 22:55:00 - [21]
 

I tried playing around with gearing a sensor damp along with my target jammers, i was a little unimpressed by the results. After the age old nerf of sensor dampeners (which was needed) the range and speed that they dampen isnt much compaired to how much a sensor booster is giving them. In pvp most all BS gear a sensor booster or 3.

I personaly like to run with one sensor booster and 4 target jammers and then 3 shield tank stuff. The results from the build i have been very pleased with. Given the 4 multi spec target jammers really rip my cap apart i usaly dont need to keep the jam going long before the situation is resolved. Given this is for PVP.

For NPC's i would recomend prob 3 racial of what your hunting. Perhaps 2 but i personaly have just has sad results from 2 units.

As far as being close range i have not really noted that the enemy being to close hurts your chance to jam them, I have suspected it a few times but the overall rate at which i jam does not seem to change. I have not really tested jamming at really long range yet so i could not really comment on how jammers work once past optimal.

PS: Target painters dont seem to be doing much for missiles so only gear them if your grouping with gun boats.

Happy Hunting
Kyse

Infineon
Minmatar
Atlantis Science and Technology
Posted - 2005.07.11 07:02:00 - [22]
 

Can some one clarify what jamming % means?

This is how I see jamming:

2 racial jammers 6/2/2/2 = 12/4/4/4 jam.pts

If I use these jam.pts on target with 10 pts (racial jammers matched for target), it means my 12 jam.pts overcomes 10 jam.pts and results in 100% scrambled ship for all continuous cycles, RIGHT?

Now, if I only use one jammer 6/2/2/2, in this case my 6 jam.pts dose not overcome the 10 pts of targeted ship and results in 0% or no scrambling at all. HERE is where I get confused, from previous post that iv read it say that “even do I don’t overcome 10 pts with my 6 jam.pts, I can still scramble target.” but with certain percentage??? what dose this means and how can I know for shore if it will happed and for how many cycles, or dose it resets every cycle and recalculates based on that same percentage? dose it means that I have chance to jam BS with only 6 jam.pts for at least one cycle?

Kardinaal
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.11 08:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Infineon
Can some one clarify what jamming % means?

This is how I see jamming:

2 racial jammers 6/2/2/2 = 12/4/4/4 jam.pts

If I use these jam.pts on target with 10 pts (racial jammers matched for target), it means my 12 jam.pts overcomes 10 jam.pts and results in 100% scrambled ship for all continuous cycles, RIGHT?

Now, if I only use one jammer 6/2/2/2, in this case my 6 jam.pts dose not overcome the 10 pts of targeted ship and results in 0% or no scrambling at all. HERE is where I get confused, from previous post that iv read it say that “even do I don’t overcome 10 pts with my 6 jam.pts, I can still scramble target.” but with certain percentage??? what dose this means and how can I know for shore if it will happed and for how many cycles, or dose it resets every cycle and recalculates based on that same percentage? dose it means that I have chance to jam BS with only 6 jam.pts for at least one cycle?



Jamming doesn't work with absolute numbers anymore. every jammer is seen as a different module.say I have a 6/2/2/2 jammer and you have a 10 strenght ship. Then the chance for my jammer to work is 6 / 10 = 0.6 or 60%. When I activate the jammer, you could say CCP roles the dice and if I'm lucky I'll jam you. I have 60% chance my jammer will work.

Kardinaal
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2005.07.11 08:40:00 - [24]
 

There's still a few loose ends to this. How do ECCM modules stack? I know they do cause the second one doesn't give you as much of an advantage as the first one.

Also, what's the chance for a disruptor to work when within optimal? Is it 100%? Do these things affect the range of ECM mods too?

Paradox Eve
Posted - 2005.07.11 09:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: FlyinFish Shriker
Originally by: James Lyrus

If we take a 6/2/2/2 jammer, when coming up against a strength 12 ship, which has an ECCM projector pointed at it, giving it 20/8/8/8, it would seem logical that your jammer has to overcome each of the sensor strengths.

So rather than the 6 / 12 'basic' probability, do we have:
(6/20) * (2/8) ^ 3
(e.g. 0.4% jamming chance, rather than 50%)



Is this part tested or anyone can confirm this?
It seems a ship with an ECCM projector is almost unable to be jammed -- 0.4%


Correct me if Im wrong, but I though ECCM projector could not give target ship a higher sensor strength than the ship using the ECCM projector. So, in general, it wouldnt give the ship a boost of 8 to every sensor strength. Normally, it would get 8 in the one type of sensor of the ship using the mod. And this also means that no ship would jump from 12 to 20, correct? Anything already about 8 and it doesnt even matter anymore. Or am I just misunderstanding something?


Still doesnt quite address the probability question, but...

Ephemeral Waves
Silver Snake Enterprise
Posted - 2005.08.01 16:03:00 - [26]
 

Thanks for the good post.

What does ECM do if somebody is already locked on and shooting at you - if anything?

I've put a couple of multi-spec on my badger with the thought that if somebody did come afterme I could jam them while my warp aligned.

Y.

Muwumba aliUbaid
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.08.01 16:45:00 - [27]
 

Any suggestions for minmatar ew frig set ups?

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2005.08.02 00:43:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ephemeral Waves
Thanks for the good post.

What does ECM do if somebody is already locked on and shooting at you - if anything?

I've put a couple of multi-spec on my badger with the thought that if somebody did come afterme I could jam them while my warp aligned.

Y.


Breaks the lock, doesn't let them lock anything until the jamming cycle ends (20 seconds), at which point your modules attempt to jam the target again. However, if they've got drones attacking you, the drones will continue to fire on you, and FoF missiles can be launched at you as well. Smartbombs also can be used.

However, if you're being scrambled and need to make an escape, ECM is your friend.

Ilkar Lightspar
Posted - 2005.08.17 20:42:00 - [29]
 

Fascinating and very useful forum!

This is probably a silly question but does the scan resolution come into the equation when looking at jamming? I am trying a cloak on my Blackbird which gives -50% to the scan resolution. Will this cripple my jamming capabilities?

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2005.08.18 19:07:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Ilkar Lightspar
Fascinating and very useful forum!

This is probably a silly question but does the scan resolution come into the equation when looking at jamming? I am trying a cloak on my Blackbird which gives -50% to the scan resolution. Will this cripple my jamming capabilities?


You've got to lock before you can jam. So if your lock times are stuffed (e.g. if they have a remote sensor dampener on you) then jamming becomes harder.
It doesn't stop you jamming once you have lock, but obviously if they have a 'counter jammer' that's not cloaked, you'll get jammed first.


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