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NGRU Rix
Dark Design
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:42:00 - [1]
 

I honestly want to understand something, please no flaming or knee jerk responses. There are plenty of threads about this topic but, it's hard to follow 20 threads about the same thing just to find one intelligent post in each. Maybe if we can get some clear intelligent responses back and forth from the onset something could be done, either way:

Why is it that some people feel that their Pirate Characters (-4.0 sec or lower)should have unrestriced freedom in all of the EVE Universe? ($12.95 a month is not a vaild reason - eveyone pays it)

Would that not render the entire of the Universe open to the Pirate regardless of their illegal actions while effectivley restricting characters with a positive security status to Empire Space as they know they have no Concord protection available outside it?

Is this not some form of a reward for illegal actions and a punishment for being a law abiding character?

Thanks, in advance for your time.

Mods - if this is one too many threads, just delete it. Just can't find a decent answer anywhere without wading through 30 carebear vs pirate flames.

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:45:00 - [2]
 

I don't recall reading anywhere that pirates want unrestricted freedom -- and anyone who does want that is stupid, anyhow.

At the moment, however, it's exactly the opposite - pirates can't do anything in Empire space whether low security or high security.

That's overkill. I'm pretty sure that's the only point that anyone intelligent was ever trying to make.

Right now the situation is like having cop cars on every corner of the street in the ghetto. It's quite silly, and has removed the risk from 99% of the game.

Been great for my bank account, though :p

Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 08/07/2003 20:46:25

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:47:00 - [3]
 

Rix, thanks for asking the question in an intelligent manner, I hope I can help you out.

1) Nobody wants unrestricted access to empire space. What we'd like is for there to be a way to add risk to trade for Intra Empire routes. ATM there are plenty of low security spots inside of empire space, its just impossible to get to them/leave without having a battleship, and even then its difficult.

2) I suggested a way for a compromise which you can find here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=18199

This would allow a lot of RP oppurtunities plus ways for pirates/non-pirates to interact with each other and still have safety.


NGRU Rix
Dark Design
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:48:00 - [4]
 

Thanks.

So, the way it's working now is that Pirates can't function freely in any system where the Sovrenity is that of one of the major races? Is that correct? Not even the .1 or .2 systems?


Edited by: NGRU Rix on 08/07/2003 20:57:17

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:54:00 - [5]
 

For all practical reasons, yes.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:54:00 - [6]
 

<< Thanks.

So, the way it's working now is that Pirates can't function freely in any system where the Sovrenity is that of one of the major races? Is that correct? Not even the .1 or .2 systems?
>>

If there's a gun and you fire, you die. And while people are reporting that there are systems without gate guns in low sec space, I believe those are more fluke than intended

Cachorro Louco
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:56:00 - [7]
 

I will throw in my 2 isk worth. No smart ass remarks. No sarcasm. Just an honest reply.

Not all -4.0 (or worse) pirates want free access to all of empire space. What they want is access (or a way to get into) certain security systems (say 0.4 to 0.0). Sounds resonable. And it is actually about the way real life is.

An example of a 1.0 system in New York City would be the Mayors office. An example of a 0.4 to 0.0 would be anywhere else in New York (sorry, sarcasm just jumped out). Well, I have never been to New York but I am sure that there are places there that even the cops don't like going into.

In all seriousness I can live with them having access to empire systems that have low security. But if someone goes on a killing spree, there does need to be a response from Concord in some way.

An example would be like that LA shootout a few years ago. Two guys armed to the teeth kept cops at bay for a few hours but were eventually killed by overwhelming force. Now if some pirate corp pulls this same stunt then Concord should bring more and heavier ships to do battle until the pirates leave or are killed. And then those same Concord ships should stay there for a good long while.

My thoughts on the subject. If any sarcasm leaked through I am sorry but it is hard to break a habit of 30 plus years.

NGRU Rix
Dark Design
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:01:00 - [8]
 

In order to add a taste of tension and possibly danger to intra-empire trade routes is something would, I imagine, revolve around rewriting the way Concord does things. At least how numerous and responsive they are in, let's say, .5 sec systems and below.

1 and .9 they should be on a pirate like white on rice. Closely tail the Pirate at all times and tell them to leave in a certain amount of time or...well. If you have a bounty on your head, don't even bother.
In .8, they tail, just waiting for you to screw up, but no time limit.
In .7, they would say "Yeah, we saw him come in, we know where he is".
In .6, "Yeah yeah, we know, pirate in system. Got it.".
In .5, "Yeah, yeah, you gonna finish that donut?".
In .4 to .1 and they might show up real fast or not at all, depends...

That's how it is IRL, IMO ;) Basically, free roam in .8 and down as long as you don't shoot stuff. The danger for raiding convoys or player convoys in Empire space has to be dangerous for the Pirate as well as the victim.
That sound about right?


Edited by: NGRU Rix on 08/07/2003 21:02:42

Zorael
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd.
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:15:00 - [9]
 

<<1 and .9 they should be on a pirate like white on rice. Closely tail the Pirate at all times and tell them to leave in a certain amount of time or...well. If you have a bounty on your head, don't even bother.
In .8, they tail, just waiting for you to screw up, but no time limit.
In .7, they would say "Yeah, we saw him come in, we know where he is".
In .6, "Yeah yeah, we know, pirate in system. Got it.".
In .5, "Yeah, yeah, you gonna finish that donut?".
In .4 to .1 and they might show up real fast or not at all, depends...>>

Actually, it's how it was supposed to be from the start, if I'm not mistaken.


Plasmatique
Caldari
The Subtle Knife
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:21:00 - [10]
 

I believe anybody with a low security rating should have a hard time traveling through security space.
However, the rampant pirating (I'll use that term loosely) that we have seen is only because the players themselves have not been able to control it.
We were told we could be bounty hunters and I hear some have chosen that path. But where were they when Moo camped Mara/Passari for days on end?
All big cities in every country have an undeclared high security zone and a seedy low security zone, usually in the outskirts of town...the southside if you will.
Would you feel safe driving your car around the southside of chicago at 1am? I see on the news there are drive-by shootings all the time in or around the southside.
You never hear of this happening in "The Loop" (high security zone?).
Part of the problem is, outside of empire space, there is nothing. No point in going out there. Why should pirates be interested in hanging out there?
Let's say you put a few more stations waaay out in non-empire space with some very high profit, high risk trade routes to run. These trade routes would pay so much, you could afford to pay escorts.
But whats to keep the pirates from exploiting these trade routes themselves? I don't know. Maybe make them only available to super high security rating players via agents? Trade via agent to agent sort of deal.
Maybe even put some high-ish security systems in little pockets far out in non-empire space. Like little outposts or something. And give us very good reasons to travel through all the 0.0 systems to make us want to go there.
Right now, there's no reason to PvP, not a big enough reason for us to risk our hard-earned stuff and little reason to leave empire space regularly.
IMO, the new security changes are way over the top.
I liked the element of fear and danger with PKers running around all over.
Most of us are training our characters to be total war machines, with the strongest ships, best skills, best weapons, ECM skills, we train/think about/test combat tactics...for what? So we can clear an asteroid belt from the NPC pirate cruisers who appear to me guarding nothing better than some gneiss?

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:23:00 - [11]
 

Hell man, I live in Atlanta, anything inside the perimeter and South of Dunwoody is considered a 'low' security zone.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:27:00 - [12]
 

Nice ideas, Plasmatique.

Almost the same as something I touched on in an earlier post (which included a bit too much FLAME by me to probably get noticed).

Bad Harlequin
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:32:00 - [13]
 

"Right now the situation is like having cop cars on every corner of the street in the ghetto. It's quite silly, and has removed the risk from 99% of the game."

That's the analogy i drew (indirectly) in my thread in Ideas. As i said there, maybe only Americans understand lawless areas and places where cops just don't show up =8).

Seriously, tho, criminals are crippled. And you HAVE to wince and bear it and grin and give them a fighting chance, or your PvP ends.

Don't feel too depressed - we're trying to figure out nothing less than a working balance of good and evil, here. I hear tell that's something a few people have tried working on now and then with little success....

Not bad for a little ol' video game to take on, huh? :D

Pyroe
Posted - 2003.07.09 03:39:00 - [14]
 

Quote: "Actually, it's how it was supposed to be from the start, if I'm not mistaken."

I just love this statement, no matter what it's applied too.

There is no "how it was supposed to be". It's made up as it goes along.

Barrack
Posted - 2003.07.09 04:01:00 - [15]
 

Personally I liked the way sec system was setup on release. It gave some danger even in empire space. Pirates could operate there without to much trouble and it gave some challange to flying around which is what this game is lacking atm.

Garon
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2003.07.09 07:08:00 - [16]
 

carebears=communists, Pirates =faccists
I vote for a 3rd system

WhiteDwarf
Caldari
Battlestars
Posted - 2003.07.09 13:09:00 - [17]
 

"What we'd like is for there to be a way to add risk to trade for Intra Empire routes"

Why?

If it's in EMPIRE space, the EMPIRE trade routes should be secured by the EMPIRE navy.

There are plenty of non-empire systems in EVE for you to do your greifing.

Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.09 13:52:00 - [18]
 


I like the ideas going around in this thread.
I think they make sense.

The whole point of the PvP is to have potential for freedom and fun, making sure the potential for frustration is kept as low as possible. This is very difficult balance to reach in a MO game, especially one where you have to work to earn your equipement.

Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.09 13:54:00 - [19]
 


I was refering to ideas of openinga bit empire space.

NGRU DeadMeat
Amarr
Tuatha de Danann
Posted - 2003.07.09 14:45:00 - [20]
 

Why not make a direct link between negative security rating and what systems can be accessed. e.g.

Security rating 0.0 to -1.0 can enter all systems without being fired upon.
Security rating -1.0 to -2.0 can enter all systems with .8 security or lower without being fired upon.
Security rating -2.0 to -3.0 can enter all systems with .6 security or lower without being fired upon.
Security rating -3.0 to -4.0 can enter all systems with .4 security or lower without being fired upon.
Security rating -4.0 to -5.0 can enter all systems with .3 security or lower without being fired upon.
Security rating -5.0 to -6.0 can enter all systems with .2 security or lower without being fired upon.
Security rating -6.0 to -8.0 can enter all systems with .1 security or lower without being fired upon.
Security rating -9.0 to -10.0 cannot enter Empire space without being fired upon.

The -5.0 or below and you can't enter Empire space thing seems a little arbitrary

Mix this with the "cops may or may not show up for a while in low security systems" and "the longer the pirates are in system the larger the police force that comes to remove them will be" and it seems you would have a pretty decent compromise between the carebears and the pirates. The way it is now there is no point to the system security label except to tell you the likelihood and strength of the NPC pirates. A system like this would also provide incentive for pirates to keep their security status reasonably close to zero so they can continue to access Empire space.

I also have a question. When you take a security hit for PKing in Empire space (I've never even fired on another player) is it tied to the security rating of the system you are in? If not, it should be. e.g.

PK in 1.0 space = -1.0 security points
PK in .1 space = -.1 security points

(I don't know if these numbers are actually what should be used, just an idea/example)



Edited by: NGRU DeadMeat on 09/07/2003 14:46:49

Mohadeeb
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:06:00 - [21]
 

Personally, I don't feel .00000001% for Pirates and the state that they are in now. You know all of you used exploit after exploit to kill ships and pod players for sport. You can read the in-game channels and watch as each pirate corp tells the other how to stack this, or drop so many cans to cause that, and this can be exploited and that. We read it everyday in game. You pirates also used early game loopholes to take advantage. So now that the cops are here and the law has been laid down, you have three options, delete your character and start over, or take your medicine (which includes stop whining in forums) and play, or quit and play CS, Quake, Doom III. I prefer the latter.

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:10:00 - [22]
 

man wth are you talking about?

Mohadeeb, grow up and stop making gross generalizations.

Mohadeeb
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:19:00 - [23]
 

I just put a big rubber stamp on your forehead and it doesn't wash off.

Please leave EVE and buy yourself a decent FPS.

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:24:00 - [24]
 

1) I, and The Gang, have never exploited. Never used cargo containers to lag people, never stacked mods, nothing.

2) The Gang RP's our piracy very well. Ask anyone who has dealings with us.

3) You're an idiot. If I wanted an FPS, I'd be playing Planetside, not Eve.

Listen man, we're having an intelligent, civil discussion on Piracy, Trading, and its ramifications. If you can't respect that then I ask a GM to delete every post you make in this thread.

Edited by: Maarek Steele on 09/07/2003 16:28:22

Mohadeeb
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:30:00 - [25]
 

Still here? I can't wait until the monthly charges are in their second month, you guys will drop like flies and this game will be what it was intended.

Shuuu pirate, shuuu. Find something else to exploit, or someone else to cheat.

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:32:00 - [26]
 

actually, I've alread paid for my second month, as have most of my corp. We've been here since early release and don't intend to go anywhere.

Now please, either attempt to act like someone with reasoning skills above a 9 year old or leave this thread.

Mohadeeb
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:40:00 - [27]
 

The truth hurts doesn't it. Still rubbing your forehead?

Most criminals in r/l don't understand why their in jail either. To them, when they killed the cop they were "just defending themselves". So, being in jail, they can't seem to understand why they are so "unlucky" or why "the world is out to get me". Its because they are CRIMINALS, like you - CRIMINAL.

Oh, please where were you? Oh, you were trying to justify extorsion, hijacking, and piracy. Go ahead, sorry to interupt you....

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:43:00 - [28]
 

You know what sad? The fact that you can't distinguish between in game hatred and a logical discussion about game mechanics. You can't even attempt to be objective about it. Perhaps you should quit online games since you don't even have the courage to post under your main account and only use an alt. If you aren't mentally steady enough to realize that its just a game and not real life and that people here are playing a Role, be it ill or good, then you should seek professional counseling, and attempt to attain a high school education.

Mohadeeb
Posted - 2003.07.09 16:50:00 - [29]
 

In game mechanics are fine the way they are right now.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, Mr. Steele. Continue to flame me but I'm not biting on your rawhide.

Honestly, the game has changed for the better and the 90% of us who don't kill for twisted pleasure or make our living off of other's gains are enjoying the small amount of peace it brings. Try to see it from a civil point of view, or any point of view other than your own.

Othnark
Minmatar
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.09 17:11:00 - [30]
 

Come on lets get some sense back into this:

Did you actually sign up for a game that is PvP just to force all people who chose to play that out of the picture? Just what did you think you were signing up for?

Please dont retype all of your claims about griefing, mod stacking and cargo lag and exploits... Because even if all pirates were guilty of doing such things now, those issues have been either balanced or fixed. Now those things dont exist, so there is no "exploit/bug/unfairness" to protect you from. There should be no reason not to let them back into these low security systems.

You talk about "sick twisted plesaure" from killing. First of alll, I believe they are doing it for money. But lets say they arent, at least ehy are better than NPC pirates who get no pleasure or money out of killing you. Right?

Look, if people want pirateless space, I say you banish all NPC pirates from the low security areas and then we will see how happy all these guys will be. Cant have it both ways. Your system "immune" to PC pirates, then guess what you dont have NPC pirates either. That will cause more people to venture out into 0.0 space to hunt at least.

Frankly, its supposed to be risky to travel into low sec space. I remeember getting messages warning me about entering 0.4 space and feeling spooked out the first time i went in. That is the way it should be. No1 said space was supposed to be safe. There was supposed to be real risk in this game.. specifically from PC pirates. Now it appears there is little to no risk.

If you wanted a non PVP game you shouldnt have signed up here. Its too bad that CCP caved, and I hope they rebalance in the other direction at some point. I cant believe they havent even addressed this issue. I hope we get some answers from the dev chat.

-Othnark


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