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Posted - 2003.07.08 07:06:00 - [1]

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on the forum so if I break any informal forum rules you'll have to excuse me.

I've been playing EVE for about 4 weeks now. I haven't been able to play religiously due to personal commitements but I am slowly building up my character (I love the skill training feature that you can train whilst you aren't logged on. When I know I am not going to be able to play for a couple of days I stick it on a skill that will take days to train and I don't lose any time).

I have been reading with interest the posts where people are frustrated with EVE and are bored. I respect their views, but also feel that they are missing the point of EVE and indeed I tend to feel that most players miss the point of online gaming worlds. I'm not saying EVE is perfect, far from it, but I think some people need to step back and take a look at it from a different perspective.

CCP do need to add extra content to the game, and I believe given time they will do so. I hope they don't force the storyline too much though as I much prefer them introduce background storylines that the players can react to in their own way and so that the players can roleplay to it. And that is the key word, roleplay.

You'll get out of EVE what you put into it, but the problem is most players don't roleplay. They see their character as a set of stats to enhance their power in the game. That is the wrong way to look at it! If you break games down to their simple level they are all boring and pointless. Take first person perspective shooters. You run around blasting things....get better equipment....that helps you blast even bigger things. When you say it it is hardly exciting is it and yet we know games like Half Life are fun.

What I advise those who are bored to do is roleplay their character. Use EVE to create the chance to have an alter ego and make your OWN story line for your character. Sit down and work out what motivations your character has, rather than the ones you'd have in real life.

Easiest way to start is give your character some history in your own mind. What sort of upbringing did your character have? Was your father/mother an honest miner, and have you followed in their footsteps? Are you bored and despondent that you are a miner, like your father, and are desperate to break away and have adventure? Is this why you roam the galaxy? This is a very mundane motive, but none the less it is one that many can relate to in real life.

Let me tell you a bit about Vamprac and his motivations. Vamprac is a TRUE Amarrian. The reason I write true in capital letters is because Vamprac believes that the only Amarrians that matter are True ones. He loathes the Ni-Kunnis with a passion that is only exceeded by how much he loathes the other races of EVE, especially the Jovians and Minmater. He is a deeply religious fellow, and also very traditionilist in his Amarrian views. As a result he has a warped sense of honour and social status. He will rarely communicate at all with non-Amarrians, and can be downright hostile towards them.

He feels that the Amarrian people have been betrayed, by the powers that be in Amarr, and is disgusted by the whole notion of CONCORD. Why does Amarr need CONCORD when by divine right it should rule the entire Galaxy? Everytime he flies to an asteroid belt, in Amarr system, and finds non-Amarr Corps working the droid fields it sends him into a rage. How can the Amarrian rulers allow foreigners to come and take natural resources that belong to the Amarrian people? It disgusts him!

So now you already have an idea of what Vamprac is like. He is bigoted, hateful, spiteful and maybe even a little insane. He sees himself as the ultimate religious reclaimer and is actively working to recruit "disciples" to what he regards as the cause, and that cause is to bring back greatness to the Amarr Empire.

There is another recent post in here asking why Corps should go to war? Well there could be several reasons. Vamprac has just formed a Corp called "The Holy Knights of Amarr". It is tiny at the moment and Vamprac is aware that going to war would be folly but here are a couple of reasons he may want to lead his corp to war. He feels that the whole Galaxy is Amarr's by divine right. When the Corp is powerful enough to stake a claim in the unclaimed regions of space maybe he will pick a few systems to claim as his own and go to war with any Corp who dare try to take resources from these systems. When powerful enough maybe he will lead his Corp to war against non-Amarr Corps operating heavily in Amarr ruled regions. One thing that disgusts him totally are True Amarrians willing to embrace other cultures and who lead Corps with mixed races in their ranks, maybe he will purge the Amarrian empire of such outrages. Being a religious fanatic maybe he will simply lead his "people" on a crusade against the Minmater people, or at least Minmater corps!

Mo0 have re

Posted - 2003.07.08 07:08:00 - [2]

Mo0 have recently been (falsey in my opinion) slated for blockading Gates. Well if my Corp was powerful enough and they did that in an Amarr system, Vamprac would be outraged and see that as a slight against Amarr honour. That would be reason enough for him to lead the corp to war against Mo0.

This is just a character I have built up in my mind but by doing so all of a sudden Vamprac's motives and actions in the game no longer seem meaningless to me. Stop looking at EVE through your own eyes and start looking at it through your characters eyes. You may just find a whole new world!

Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:20:00 - [3]

"They see their character as a set of stats to enhance their power in the game. That is the wrong way to look at it! If you break games down to their simple level they are all boring and pointless."

Beutifully said

Edited by: Lexs on 08/07/2003 07:20:44

Sir Vengeance
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:29:00 - [4]

You beat me by about 5 minutes with this post, good work.

I also feel that most of the people that flame in here are people that are more used to playing FPS games rather than a MMORPG. They want it all, they want it all now, they want to then move on to the next game in a couple of months.

Well, I am here for the long run and fully expect to see changes implemented, issues raised, issues solved, storylines unfolded over the next year or more.

Yes, things will be nerfed, un-nerfed, yes things will get broken, but please do not convince yourselves that posting *anything* on this board gives you the god given right to expect the developers to read and take note. What really matters is attracting and keping new customers. IF you dont do this, the game will die. Period.

If you really want to contribute, play on the test server for at least 25% of your time and contribute professionally and intelligently to the testing forums and in the testing IRC channels. If you cant do this then provide constructive criticism and ideas on the ideas forum.

To those that care about EVE, please dont quit the game until the short-term excitement jockies have had their fill and moved away to a new game with new exploits to uncover and new people to annoy.

These first few months are just the beginning of the foreseeable future :-)

Vamprac, you may despise my race, but hear me now when I tell you that the Minmatar will rise and your corporations 2 or 3 systems in some far away place will be all thats left of your "great" Amarrian empire.

New Found Power
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:36:00 - [5]

i agree 100% people need to start looking at eve the way it was meant to be seen as a deap and rich roleplaying world with a well developed backround story.

Posted - 2003.07.08 07:42:00 - [6]

Slithereen would have been a person who would hate a chauvinistic Amarrian like Vamprac.

For she is a Ni-Kunni, the daughter of a famous Ni Kunni painter, who used to venture to the stars alone in scout ship, then attempt to paint all the glory he sees with a mere brush of colored acrylic, a time tested technique that dates thousands of years back to Old Earth.

He taught her, "anyone can take a picture of the heavens, but to capture its soul, you have to paint it."

Slithereen grew up in abject poverty as any daughter of a living artist would be. But when her father died, his works became worth a lot of money, and she used this money to pay his debts and then finally bought a ship and skills of her own.

She swore never to be poor again.

Unlike true Amarr, her Ni-Kunni and artistic taught her to accept all races. She joined a corporation whose very title proposes galactic brotherhood, recruited no less by a Minmatar Brutor. Here she is joined by other Ni-Kunni and true Amarrians who see that the way to the future is to embrace peace and brotherhood for all.

She has no qualms to use the best tools to achieve her objectives, never mind if its non-Amarr. Now a rich owner of several frigates, she has chosen that frigate, feared and hated among many Amarrians, as her main fighting ship---the Rifter. Such decisions would have made her an outcast among chauvinistic Amarrians. But she did not stop there---chosing a Minmatar Probe---as her ship of all purpose trade.

Her battle style too is very un-Amarr, preferring speed over strength, missiles and projectiles over lasers. She can be mistaken more for a Caldari or a Minmatar than a citizen from the Amarr empire.

She has a bad habit---she loves spending sprees and collecting things. Especially ships that catch her eyes. She has amassed a personal collection of frigates, including a Merlin, a Tristan, a Punisher, an Incursus, an Imiscus, an Inquisitor and a Kestrel, in addition to her Rifter and Probe. She still keeps a variety of shuttles and civilian ships like Impairers, Reapers, Velators and Ibis as shuttles. If not for her spending sprees, she would have acquired a cruiser sooner. Somehow she hates big and slow ships, and hence why she never bought an industrial. Also Bestowers are just plain painful a sight for the eyes of the daughter of an artist.

As you can see she has developed a recent fondness of Gallente ships, loving their artform, having no less than four ships in her private collection---and plans to senselessly acquire more in the future just to "have it". Ni-Kunni at birth, but a Gallente in soul.

But even the artist's daughter must ultimately succumb to the trends of the times. For the future lies with big ships. She is now the proud pilot of an Omen cruiser, "The Eyes of Calypso".

But the gleam in her eyes tells you that the Calypso won't be her last cruiser.

Edited by: Slithereen on 08/07/2003 07:44:33

Posted - 2003.07.08 08:00:00 - [7]

"Vamprac, you may despise my race, but hear me now when I tell you that the Minmatar will rise and your corporations 2 or 3 systems in some far away place will be all thats left of your "great" Amarrian empire."

You will kneel before the might of Amarr, or you will die like so many of your foolish bretheren have done before you. There is no point fighting what is destined.

Posted - 2003.07.08 08:03:00 - [8]

"Slithereen would have been a person who would hate a chauvinistic Amarrian like Vamprac."

Had Slithereen accepted her station in life and at least tried to live the Amarrian way maybe I would have let her live as a pleasure slave. However by embracing the ways of the heretics she has proclaimed herself as one and as a result she will die like all the rest at the day of reckoning.

Draconis Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:24:00 - [9]

Where do I sign up for the club? ;)

Azhraell chuckles at finding another connoisseur of frigates in the midst of this recent hiatus for bigger, bulkier, stronger ships; but, he knows very well, all ships have their uses. And beside the impressive Thorax Wyvern's Claw, flagship of the DHI fleet, a small, sleek Punisher sits, unregarded by others. But Knave I is Fleet Admiral Azhraell's sole vessel, regardless of what necessities dictate to pilot.

Ravina Galadriel
Tiamat Incorporated
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:27:00 - [10]

Not willingly accepting my family´s fate, my mother sold her live for the freedom of her child. She turned to the Minmatar underground on Amarr prime and with that forfitting her live.

The illegal liberation transport barely made it out of Amarr space, at the cost of several Reaper frigates and their supporting fighter swarms. But at least 10000 Minmatar mostly children under 5 years old where safed from the Amarr grip. Now just 24 years later several of these children are pilots like the ones who died on the field of liberation that long time ago.

Not willingly accepting the fate her family suffered now Ravina started a corporation, whether it be a small one she now actively hunts the Angel cartel scumm who stil sell slaves on the Black Market.
Needing to get the resources for better equipment and starting her corp on the weapons market she will continue to hunt the pirates in Minmatar space.

But Amarr beware in time there will be a fleet of Minmatar Battleships and Titans paying a visit to Amarr prime. Together with all support ships they will free the enslaved and will repay their slavery in the blood of the Amarr slavers...... ......beware.

BTW very good post! :)

Edited by: Ravina Galadriel on 08/07/2003 08:30:35

Posted - 2003.07.08 14:51:00 - [11]

"i agree 100% people need to start looking at eve the way it was meant to be seen as a deap and rich roleplaying world with a well developed backround story."

Alas, I don't foresee many people doing that...or at least not enough.

Also to be honest it does work both ways and I feel CCP could've made the Universe a little more believable with not much effort. For example, NPC Pirates roam the galaxy and yet when they open fire CONCORD are nowhere to be found! The moment a player opens fire on another player CONCORD are everywhere!

The other thing I would've done is make the populated Universe smaller and have high sec ratings. Empire space should only have low sec ratings on the very fringes and even then maybe they should be 0.4 and no lower. There could then have been buffer systems between the regions of each race that could have very low security ratings and unchartered regions surrounding the regions low as well. Also within non-Empire systems there should be no penalty rating given to PK, because there would be no one out there to report it.

Cachorro Louco
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:58:00 - [12]

When I grow up I am going after Amarr slaver scum! Treat my people like slaves!

You Amarr slaver scum still in Minmatar space this is your first and last warning: Give me all your stuff and I will let you leave Minmatar in one piece (in a Minmatar shuttle) or your are oh so dead when I get big and strong! :)

Shadow Tech Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:07:00 - [13]

"When the Corp is powerful enough to stake a claim in the unclaimed regions of space maybe he will pick a few systems to claim as his own and go to war with any Corp who dare try to take resources from these systems."

Been there, done that. Whiners get on the boards and complain about you blocakading the system, and saying you have no right to be there or to claim it. They spread propaganda about the area having great minerals, and that everyone should go there to have attack your corporation to dislodge them...

Where did this happen? Lets see... first there was Obe, then Stain, and now curse. Stop whining if you die on my turf!

I've been doing this for quite some time with my corpmates, and have had more fun than most corps will ever have. However, there is a limit on it. Until we can physically stake a claim in a system and call it ours, with our own stations / guns/ gates... then we can't control systems... I suggested a nice alternative to how they should have had Eve play out in retail. You can go look at it in the following link:

This was when I was more inspired to help out and make suggestions... now I just poke CCP in the ribs for being stupid every once and a while.

Posted - 2003.07.08 16:26:00 - [14]

"They see their character as a set of stats to enhance their power in the game. That is the wrong way to look at it!"

Sorry, but welcome to MMORPGs, the RPG part just means character building not roleplaying. Furthermore EVE is just another example of why this happens, as putting all races in the same corp, in various parts of different 'enemy' empire space, even flying each other's ships makes no difference. Add in penalties for killing racial enemies with your character's global 'security status' rating and you have effectively killed off any motivation for roleplaying the game could have.

As long as roleplaying is penalized rather than rewarded, you're better off just forgetting about it and playing the game 'by the numbers' in order to 'win' rather than anything else.

Bad Harlequin
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:34:00 - [15]

Shadow, you missed his transition to IC comments. What you quoted was the character, not the player: his player needs you there else the character cannot have this motivation / interaction =8).

So far i find it terribly amusing that the people who most often agree with the whole "whiners shush and do something useful," and quickly unite on the boards behind such statements, are Amarr and Minmatar backing each other up.

That should TELL the rest of you something. The game mechanics are tools for playing the game (flawed tools, yes, but i see progress even if y'all feel it's too slow). The game itself - like ANY game - depends entirely on all of us. Too many people look at these background posts and don't get it. Their eyes cross if it doesn't translate into a stat formula...

J0urneys End
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:42:00 - [16]

This is what I hate about some role playing games. WHY the heck do you have to role play Racism?

Isn't there enough racism in the world? There are ALOT of things you can roleplay your character. Why must race be the defining factor in your characters motivations? Can't you look beyond that and come up with something else?

Is the imagination of the role-playing community limited to the pitiful "You are Amarr therefore I hate you" kind of gameplay?

When will people learn, whether in game or out of game. That people are defined by their personalities and inner morality. Not by the color of their skin. Not by the color of their race.

Jash Illian
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 17:10:00 - [17]

Bah...People around here wouldn't know roleplay if it flew up to them and shot them in the ass at point blank range with a howtizer.

I say that because it did get up, shoot them in the ass with a heavy beam laser and they cried "Foul!". And subsequently had it nerfed.

Look at what you had just in m0o:
1) A nemesis
2) A rival
3) A source of hatred
4) A source of admiration

None of these are attributes, skill ranks/level, module attributes or the like. None of that was anything CCP programmed. That was created by the players in response to m0o

Look at the terms used just to describe m0o's actions:
1) Murder
2) Blockade
3) Massacre
4) Slaughter
5) Siege
6) Invasion
7) Empire Space

None of those terms are things spawned from game mechanics. Nobody was murdered. Not one single player fell over dead at his keyboard after being blown apart by a m0o cruiser. People made a huge ballyhoo about the sanctity of Empire Space. Excuse me, but in a game of statistics, who would care about a concept of Empire Space?

People were roleplaying and they never even realized it. People, like Setec, became pirates to be a better pirate than m0o. People, like Oracle and Omega, created groups to protect the public from the Pirate menace. People voiced outrage at the heinous acts of bloodthirst and mayhem m0o caused. Wait...Stats aren't 'heinous'. Numbers aren't 'bloodthirsty'.

On of the things I've encountered in a long career of playing MMORPGs is people have no concept of roleplaying whatsoever. They believe roleplay is about spinning a yarn about how their parents were killed by xxx. They believe roleplay is about using the appropriate emote at the appropriate time. They believe roleplay is about using an OOC channel to talk about yesterday's baseball game.

But when it comes time to actually play a role, they balk. Just like people here balked. Some people rose to meet the challenge. Other's abandoned the challenge, all the while using terms stemming from roleplay to get game mechanics nerfed.

People complained m0o wasn't roleplaying. So what? They provided you with everything you needed to tell a story. They provided the characters. They provided a motivation. They provided goals. Instead of working with what they provided, people complained about what they were doing.

No, people don't want to roleplay here. They want to spin grand tales about things they'll never do and have never experienced. They want to write stories, not act them out. Because if acting them out means they might have to lose something, they can't have that at all.

Posted - 2003.07.08 17:39:00 - [18]

"This is what I hate about some role playing games. WHY the heck do you have to role play Racism?"

It's a valid point you make, but then surely the reason many people play games is to escape the shackles of political correctness and realism? I love to play GTA3 VC, but I would never seriously knock someone off of their bike, shoot them, steal their cash and then their bike!

Human history is defined by conflict and defined by xenophobia. People are often afraid of what they don't understand and others genuinely believe that they are superior, for whatever motive they give, to others.

The game is about many things, but conflict and tensions between the different factions are at the forefront, just read the race descriptions. The only way CCP could've got around this is by having everyone as a basic human (or something else) and then had a common foe to fight, an alien race hellbent on taking over the Universe....only then that would be another form of racism wouldn't it?

Of course racism is an overused word in today's society and people concentrate on it so much that they miss the big picture and real causes of differences between people. That difference is power and ignorance. Those who have power often abuse it, and those who are ignorant often believe what they are told by those in power.

It states in the details that the Amarrians are a deeply religious race. Vamprac follows that stereotype, and has the narrow minded views that religious people do have. There is right and there is wrong is what most religions teach. Vamprac simply doesn't believe that his loathing for these inferior beings is wrong, because he genuinely believes that the Amarrians (and himself!) were born to greatness. He is very much like a Lord in Medieval times. The other races are purely serfs and peasants (in effect most serfs and peasants were slaves back in the middle ages, although they were never termed so) and are therefore utterly beneath him. He does not despise them, he thinks of them as ants.....his hatred comes from the fact that Amarr's power is slipping and the "ants" are being treated as equals to one as great as himself and are gaining more power.

He would never admit it, but the Amarr way of life is changing and he is scared.

At the end of the day, this is only a game....if you abhore racism to the point you can't stomach it even in a game, then the same must apply to killing things in games too. Perhaps Eve Online isn't for you and a less aggressive game may be suited better to your tastes.

Posted - 2003.07.08 17:47:00 - [19]

Good post Jash and I agree.

Love them or despise them, Moo created excitement. Just take a look at these forums. How many people were inspired to write that the saw a member of the Moo corporation. Moo are infamous, and if the game proves to be a success, and lasts for 2 or 3 years, when we all look back in 10 years time we'll remember Moo and smile. Who is going to remember a Corp that sat around all day mining and trading and tried to make no difference at all to the world of EVE.

The Holy Knights of Amarr's future has yet to be decided, maybe we'll flourish or maybe we'll totally underestimate the power of the Minmater empire and be crushed. One thing I can say is that we'll strive to make a difference in the game. If I wanted to sit around all day making ISK, then I would forget about the game and devote my attention to making money in the real world! Out here in cyberspace I want fun, and I intend to have it.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:19:00 - [20]

"When will people learn, whether in game or out of game. That people are defined by their personalities and inner morality. Not by the color of their skin. Not by the color of their race."


Please do us all a favor before you try and bring RL stuff in and LOOK at the races in Eve. You will see they are based on something other than color. Most infact have the same coloring and different features instead.

Racism in games is the easiest way to provide a backdrop for conflict. Would you prefer we all sit around and make cup cakes with each other?

In Eve you pick less of a race and more of a Kindom. The differences between them are ideological, not physical.

Maud Dib
The Bleeding Heart Cult
Posted - 2003.07.09 13:39:00 - [21]

Maud Dib grew up the son of a middle class Caldari trader who spke freely and passionately about the rights of all peoples to live and work in peace. On his fourteenth birthday he joined his father in learning the family business. What he learned however was that his father practiced something quite different than he preached. Maud began to discover that his father was doing the vast majority of his dealings with Amarr slavers and that his family had been living off of the suffering of others for a very long time. Leaving his family an outcast after a volitile encounter with his family he began his life mining and trading. Here and there he began to pick up combat skills waiting for the day when the Mimnatar people would end slavery once and for all. He has become frustrated in his travels as he has been unable to link up with others of like mind but he continues his dogged pursuit of regaining his family honor and pride.


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