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blankseplocked The likes of Mo0 got there 1st..
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Knights of Shadows
Posted - 2003.07.08 03:42:00 - [1]

So lots of us spend our time slowly outfitting our ships..

But Mo0 got there first, and look.. they're bored and supposedly leaving.

Is that the culminated end of everything? I hear of new content and stuff, but is that really on the horizon? I haven't been able to decide if it really is or not; no official word really.

And if the content is like the agent mission content.. then that's too much like a 'goofy single-player game' kind of content.

I love the hell out of Eve and I like the last patch, but I was just thinking about this tonight while feverishly hunting a certain piece of hardware.

What happens when I get some uber ship that most others can't touch? I've heard that the vast majority of people scurry from Mo0 and their likes, like roaches in the light.. hell, I do it too..

So what comes next?

(Edited: not sure if Mo0 'rally did' giet there 1st.. but they are the most public, so they are the example in this post.)

Posted - 2003.07.08 03:58:00 - [2]

You better put on your fire ******ant suit because here come the fanbois.

Damon Vile
AUS Corporation
Posted - 2003.07.08 04:20:00 - [3]

You could do what I a dumb ass and lose your ship :)

This next patch I hear is all code fix no new content ( though I'm guessing they will have something ). After that if they don't do something with the war declaration system and give us something to fight over, I'll be looking for a new game :(

Player stations will give big corps something to fight about but I don't see many little ones doing it.

Going to war just to shoot at someone isn't what I'm looking for, if I wanted that I would have been a pirate :P

Knights of Shadows
Posted - 2003.07.08 04:33:00 - [4]

Hmm, I think a general call-to-arms for [insert war here] would be fun.

Concord could guarantee you some kind of incentive, like a less of a hit if you are podkilled or something.. and a bunch of isk and some noteriety if you are among those who prevail.

Posted - 2003.07.08 04:38:00 - [5]

It's a shame that most corps don't want to go to war because it is NOT profitable. Well if you have to fight over resources, It should be profitable. CCP makes it too risky for most corps (especially the super rich corps. TTI decided it was not profitable to go to war with M0o) to go to war with each other.

This has to change in order for EVE to be a successful game.

Edited by: zorlo on 08/07/2003 04:52:13

Posted - 2003.07.08 04:39:00 - [6]

well one would think that if you have the amount of resources where you are getting bored then it wouldn't matter if going 2 war is profitable or not b/c whats a cruiser or 2..

Posted - 2003.07.08 04:47:00 - [7]

"What happens when I get some uber ship that most others can't touch?"

Then you would be like Alexander the Great and become bored because there is no one to battle.

Posted - 2003.07.08 04:55:00 - [8]

When is war ever profitable? It costs deeply in both money and lives. I like EVE in the way it mimics life, that war is not a cheap, costless endeavor in material and lives like the way video games tend to portray violence.

Even fruitless violence---endless kills in games like quake---gets awfully dry once in a while.

The problem of MMOs and not just this MMO, but every MMO, is to get a storyline going to involve the player base into the fantasy of a plot. Guess what, it never succeeds. Storylines quickly feel "artificial" and get pushed to the background and people ultimately do not care at all.

Instead, MMOs are about pushing your character to the limit, to explore every crook and cranny of the universe, to try and do everything, to be on top of the pyramid, to be head of the food chain, to be better than the Jones. Yes, people get a kick of parading their new cruiser or battleship in a roid belt full of newbies eating rock.

You know what? That's what people also do in life.

My guess is that the devs are trying to fix all technical and balance issues in the game first before attempting to guide the universe into some storyline. MMOs, and I expect EVE will follow this pattern, will also evolve in time, introducing new items and features. Changes help keep the game at its edge, even though they will undoubtedly offend some people.

Posted - 2003.07.08 05:09:00 - [9]

Eve just drips with wars and conspiracies. It's all in the background stories. I believe the developers want it that way. But whether the players want it that way is another story (presently, risk outweighs benifits when it comes to war).

It seems since most players are not introducing their own story lines, an incentive from CCP is definitely needed to stimulate the game to the next level so that people will not be afraid to go to war.

Edited by: zorlo on 08/07/2003 05:11:22

Edited by: zorlo on 08/07/2003 05:14:30

Edited by: zorlo on 08/07/2003 05:17:32

Posted - 2003.07.08 05:45:00 - [10]

People do not go to war using their own personal belongings (private gun, etc,.)

If you want inter-empire war, the respective empires have to foot the bill.

In other words, I don't expect that I am going to use my own ships to war in behalf of the empire. Rather I expect the empire to furnish their own ships and weapons.

I mean like, do you expect the US government to ask each citizen to buy their M-16, then buy their own plane ticket to Iraq and fight there? No. Every war is at the monetary expense of the government. I supply the body, you provide the means.

Example of going to war in EVE.

Player A, a dutiful member of a private corporation, is volunteered/drafted and must sign up with the Imperial Amarr Navy. The more skilled Player A is, or the higher his/her security rating is, the higher is his/her initial prestige point level.

The Navy, based on the skills of Player A, will duly furnish Player A with a ship and weapons worthy of Player A's skills. Weapons and all ammunition are rationed and allocated to Player A without the expense of Player A's own pocket.

All standard government issue.

All signed players will be given missions and areas for combat.

If a player dies, government resurrects the player with a clone equipped with all standing skills of the player, all at the goverment's own expense. Players will be supplied with new ships. Lost of ship or unsucessful misisons means player prestige goes down, and he can get lesser ship, lesser weapons. You call this a demotion.

If you ever played a game called Starfleet Command (based on Star Trek), this is a good example, or model, of a war economy. Instead of actual money, the true currency of war is prestige. Prestige points on a player allows the player to acquire bigger ships and weapons. Greater success means more prestige, while failures mean less prestige.

Edited by: Slithereen on 08/07/2003 05:52:01

Maarek Steele
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 05:48:00 - [11]

Thank god the founding fathers of the US didn't take the same attitude.

Courage is a rare commodity, and its rarity adds all the more to its value.

Draconis Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 06:02:00 - [12]

The player content is actually just beginning to develop...the Stain Alliance is an example, as well as the Syndicate-Placid Commonwealth...the future is bright. :)
After all, if you decide to go for player-created content (which IMHO is better - much more realistic, deeper and fluid), you can't directly control its's only logical that it would take a couple of months for embryos to start forming.

Damon Vile
AUS Corporation
Posted - 2003.07.08 06:07:00 - [13]

If I wanted real life I wouldn't be playing eve. I'm flying around in a spaceship FFS.
Yes war is a waste of life in real life...this is just a game and killing other ppl is a big part of it.

I wasn't talking about war costing too much to fight I don't care if I lose my ship.

The reason there are so few wars in eve is...what do you win. Yes wars in games are about winning something. I don't care if thats not the case in real life, this isn't real life. This game is about corps going to war, there has to be something worth wile to win.

Posted - 2003.07.08 06:14:00 - [14]

What kind of alliance is the Syndicate- Placid Commonwealth? What corps make it up?

Master Scy
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:02:00 - [15]

Corporation wars will be profitable if at some point, corporations are forced to specialise in what they manufacture (so not every big corp makes everything), and when it's easy to see who's selling the same item(s) you are.

Draconis Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:01:00 - [16]

The Syndicate-Placid Commonwealth is one of the biggest PC factions in the game atm, it includes such notables as Draconis Heavy Industries, the British Space Corporation, RUS, official charter will be published on these forums soon.
As for wars, yeah, I definitely agree some real wars would be great to see - but all corps atm are small, even Taggart and RUS. Nobody owns a planet, has a station, possesses a Titan...I think that when truly valuable things, which can change ownership, enter the game, we'll see some wars. Right now the most valuable things are battleship blueprints and possibly Arkonor belts, and the former cannot be captured except by accident, whereas the latter is rarely discovered by two people at once and is not worth anything more than a single battle or skirmish.

Calladen Nimitz
Todaki Innovations
Posted - 2003.07.08 09:42:00 - [17]

Azrahell is right on target with his post. With the appearance of player stations, mobile depots and refineries and player owned planets you'll see more "war".

Think of EVE as a "real life" genesis where things play out over real time. It may be MONTHS before we see some of the stuff that will come to the game.

I have alot of faith in the CCP devs regarding their promises of new content and additional themes. I've played several online games and haven't really had this level of support (despite all the complaints to the contrary by everyone). I think everyone has to admit they've been pretty good about making changes (even if they're not real popular).

I can't even begin to imagine a Westwood customer service type response in Eve (westwood - earth and beyond - like the month they moved to SF from LV and didn't do any patches or fixes for a month). Here the changes are basically done in a timely manner.

Overall I'd give CCP a B+ grade and I'll be giving them time to develop EVE. This game is incredible in size and scope and detail. It will take some time to evolve .... just as our real world is still evolving.

Calladen Nimitz

Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:18:00 - [18]

I think we should all live in perfect harmony!

War what is it good for? absolutly nothing!!

Screw that!! Once I am in a beast of a ship I will be out there looking for a corp who wants to rule the galaxy. Who cares if there is no isk profit, the mere enjoyment of seeing a battleship explode in a ball of flames and watching a CEO surrender under my might. Bring it on people we can't all mine forever where is the fun in that? (OH, yeah forgot you all want Battleships to mine in!!!)

"Live for the now, die later!"

Internet Tough Guys Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:37:00 - [19]

Well for them to make war a large part of the game they would need to... Alow Corperations for Alliances to control start systems (not just pretend controll, but real control, like you then have an NPC defence fleet that you can hire that has your name on it kinda thing). There needs to be more agression between all the different Empires

Pychian Vanervi
Solar Revenue Service
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:52:00 - [20]

Well why don't some of the bigger corps become more racially strict, instead of grabbing every noob that comes along just to say I have 10 , 20 or 30 in their corp?
Someone start a waring faction, go and attack a rival races space. It doesn't need and CCP involvement. Screw the CONCORD, just hit and run, then nations will need to set up some of their own defence.

Radio Free Albemuth
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:56:00 - [21]

Because it bring nothing to be a racial corp ??

*HINT* In some other game I won't mention here, racial guilds get BENEFITS from being restrictive, if you choose to be a "Race XXX only guild" then those get for them members experience bonuses, damage bonusses, etc...

Actualy only number of members count, so why screw yourself with racial limitation ? Roleplay ? MOUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Zaphod Robotnik
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:06:00 - [22]

<<Because it bring nothing to be a racial corp ??>>

Assuming your corporation goes for self-sufficiency, apart from the fact you only need to amass ships of one race, and weapons that match those ship-types. Hence you don't have such an initial outlay to equip your members.

Multiracial corporations that to ensure they can provide ships for every race that they have in their corporation and hence can't move on to some of the bigger blueprints (like battleships) early on.

Arminius I
Warspite Developments
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:20:00 - [23]

I must say I have to agree with Zaphod's last paragraph above.

It does make building up a little slower than if a corp was able to concentrate soly on one race's ships.

However the upside is the fact that you can cater for a whide variety, and also tha fact that with members of different races brings to the corp their individual attributes and technologies with them.

Edited by: Arminius I on 08/07/2003 12:22:20

Posted - 2003.07.08 12:58:00 - [24]

Hmm I think it also boils down to the way PVP in general works:

Avoiding combat is ten times easier than forcing someone to fight you.

Short of using Can lag and warp scramblers fighting another person is a lost cause before it even begins.

PVP REQUIRES at LEAST one person having a warp scrambler or can lag tomake the fight end in anything meaningful.

Even in my thorax, by the time I could get your rifter down to low armor, you would usualy be halfway to a station unless I scrambled you. heck if you where smart you'd warp the second I locked you.

Against another cruiser, who in thier right mind would stick around to see how would might end?

I know I wouldn't... There is NO reason to stand and fight... NONE ZERO ZIP ZILCH NADA!

The enemy can't track you down or hunt you through the system... so as long as you warp away once, your almost totaly safe.

some people say this is as it should be... I totaly disagree... They are looking at it from the carebear point of view, they don't like shooting at people, and don't like being shot at.

They want to be able to get away completely from any fight they don't choose...

If CCP would simply make it so you could locate and warp to a ship using the scanner without having to figure out the "direction" setting of the sensor function, then I promise you even people who play solo WILL find it in thier heart to stand and fight once in a while, or even attack just for the heck of it, or to keep others out of thier roid belt (still havn't figured out how that direction tab in the scanner thing works BTW not in any way meaningful).

Some will say: WAHAHAHA I can't get away! yes you can, very easily, but at least now I can hunt you down...

OR conversely you could hunt me down.

IF CPP makes it so nebulas, and asteroid fields had some real effects on combat you could try to hide in them or use them to your advantage...

all of these things would make combat more interesting and thus there would be added incentive to give it a try.

As for Corp wars:

It has it's bugs, for one thing changing corps after war is declared. Thats right, put all your industry and mining or whatever in one corp and fight with the other... do this a few times and the offensive corp will have a hard time fighting you, as they can only start wars with three corps at a time...

Ok lets say that bug is gone...

Then what?

What is the point of wars? what will you fight for? right now only role playing corps have any real reasons for going to war... Right now there are No stations to lose, or destroy, no planets to take over, no systems to colonize...
Even if these exist, the care bears are crying for these things to be indestructable, and it sounds like they might get thier way!!! YES THAT'S RIGHT! Rumor has it CCP is only making stations and things destroyable in the construction phase... Gee thanks CCP so we have a window of a few days or so to destroy something the enemy corp cant't even use yet...

Thus I suggest CCP implement the following:

All stations and player made structures can go bang. Granted it should take hours of continued pummeling from battleships, but if you lose your station while your sleeping TOO F'ING BAD! you can do the SAME thing to ME! If your powerful enough to own a station you should be powerful enough to at least hurt me back...

Systems and player owned planets should be conquerable... the exact system for this would be hard to fathom, but I would bet it could be done with a kind of score system.

Each time you do harm to an enemy corp you gain points. the points would be area related....

Say I kill ten of your frigates in xyz system. That means I get 100 points toward conquering Xyz system. to get those points back you need to destroy ten of my frigates in that same system. each planet in the system could be worth X points, ETC ETC. you could buy each planet one buy one, winning the rights to build there, or thus denying the enemy the right to do so...

If you acuumulate enough points you can concquer the system.

What this would do would be to make all the jump gates in that system belong to your corp faction and all sentry guns around them fire on the enemy corp... thus hiundering the enemies access to the system.

There are so many ways this point buy system could be used, and it would add imense reasons for going to war.

The exact number of points your real estate assets are worth could be in ISK value divided by some number like 10 or 100 maybe.

A theoretical example might be:

System XYZ owned/ controlled by Bob corp: total worth: 1,000,000 points.

Planet 1-4: 500 points each.
Planet 6-8: 1,000 points each.
planets with stations already orbiting them: 800 points plus planet value each.

Bob corp Loses two cruiser and ten frigates one day in orbit of planet 4 (actually they are in an asteroid belt, but asteroid belts should count toward the planet they orbit.)

The los

Karash Amerius
Posted - 2003.07.08 13:29:00 - [25]

There is no future for non-purposeful pvp in any MMO. The result is always burnout. Now if m0o would actually get some RP or a ROE that lent itself to a debate of "good guy vs bad guy" instead of exploiter, then I am sure they would not all be leaving.

Just in life, you must find a valid reason to fight...or your journey down that path will always be short.

Fortoye Drak
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:36:00 - [26]

You cant have a war until you can "win".

You cant "win" until you can hold ground.

You cant hold ground until you can build stations and guns to protect it.

You cant take protected ground until stations and guns are destroyable.

At that point you can win a war.

At which point one might start.

Until then, its pointless.

Internet Tough Guys Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:13:00 - [27]

To slith about the empires supying us ships to fight. That means we will have to pay taxes, because where do u think an empire would get its money? Personaly i think you should pay for ur own stuff it makes sence... We are not all soldier but private corperations. That is one of the main reason that there is not a large reason to go and fight the ammar if ur say the Minmatar, because you belong more to your corp than u do to your race.

Lao Tzu
Hellenistic Capital
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:23:00 - [28]

There is plenty to win in a war, you just have to hurt a corp untill they pay you to stop :D

Shadow Tech Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:23:00 - [29]

I made similar suggestions in my article: Check it out, its a long read though.

Elias Root
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:30:00 - [30]

>"So lots of us spend our time slowly outfitting our ships..
But Mo0 got there first, and look.. they're bored and supposedly leaving.
Is that the culminated end of everything?"<

Well no. I think m0o's reason is just a convenient excuse to back out and we shouldn't see that as the future for every other player. Their ascendence hasn't been typical of the way most of us play the game - it's been far swifter and with a much greater (almost exclusive) focus on overwhelming force of arms.

But there's more to Eve than combat (shock!). More to combat than brute force and battleships (horror!). Here's just one or two ideas for how to keep enjoying the game:

We know of some of the content and developments we can expect, so get together with other players and plan for them now so you're ready when they are introduced.

Player space stations will be here sooner or later, so start exploring and scouting locations, start stockpiling minerals, and make plans to defend your wanted location from other corps doing the same. (Of course that would mean viewing 0.0 space as a valuable resource over which corporations may want to go to war - but nobody wants that do they? And it would mean regular traders ferrying large amounts of valuable minerals through space in which pirates can move, and attack, freely - but it's not as if pirates are having trouble finding places where they can engage other players in combat without being blasted by sentry guns or having them run away and dock.)

And come to that - how do you defend a space station? How do you successfully assault a space station? Get some of your corp friends together and start hammering out (and practicing) tactics, module combinations, ship combinations. Is the future of Eve really every player coasting about in Battleships, or could combinations of cruisers and frigates, assault and support vessels, use of scouts/decoys/feints and other imaginative strategies be something to consider?

What about the black market? What about smuggling? How do you want to make use of those (or the players who have access to them).

Or, here's a novel idea, what about role-playing? What if a pirate has a change of heart and tries to reform? What if a Caldari looses faith in capitalism? What about an Amarr involved in smuggling refugees or humanitarian aid to Minmatarr space, or a Minmattar traitor selling his own people as slaves?

What I'm trying to suggest is that the key to avoiding boredom, in Eve as everywhere else, is the creative use of imagination. A headlong dash for the biggest baddest ship around only takes you so far (as many in M0o are now discovering). But by the time the rest of us are flying battleships, or know people flying them, (having taken a broader, slower approach to the game) it will be much more content-rich with many more opportunities for gameplay.

It's not boredom or lack of content that has spoiled Eve for m0o - it's their own over-specialization, failure to think far enough ahead, and lack of patience. The rest of us have the chance to try and do things differently.

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