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Azhraell
Gallente
Draconis Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:02:00 - [31]
 

CCP have stated expressly that they want the market to be entirely player-controlled and want as little NPC involvement as possible. The reason why there's such a deluge of supply and barely a whiff of demand is because the only things we have right now are basic stuff, and CCP wants everyone to have them. So, when the "real stuff" comes along, not everyone will have a Thorax mk2 blueprint, and people will want shiny better new Thoraxes; the real market will evolve then. See my post above on new items.

Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:13:00 - [32]
 


Well, since this is an online game, the goal is to have a social activity going.
Selling to NPCs will only achieve one thing: many corps will be spiting ships out of their factories as fast as possible, trying to make as much money as they can since there would be no limit to how much one can produce and sell. So money would lose its value entirely at corp level. This would make over production a lot worse than it currently is, narrowing the scope of the game drastically. It would throw the whole economy through the window, since an isk wouldn't have the same real value for a small corp or a big corp, as there would not be any more common denominator between different corps. All ressources and materials would disapear into this bottomless sink of the NPC artificial market.

Basically, it would be a big step of giving up what is the center of this game, the economy.



StealthNet
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:14:00 - [33]
 

c'mon, so prices are down because m0o used to kill 20 players a day (but not anymore), from a 4000+ players online universe, at any given time ?

Prices are getting down because blueprints are being researched, and companies are starting to deep space mine their own.

Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:17:00 - [34]
 

See my post above on new items too.

Introducing rare BPs will cut down offer, not help demand. Cutting down production will create unemployement...

Basically the problem is the main thing there is to do in this game at the moment is producing, no wonder there's too much offer...

And if you control production, then what will people do?

Rhonstet
Posted - 2003.07.08 13:07:00 - [35]
 

Ulendar's post points out the simple truth of this issue: the NPC demand for materials is limited to Minerals and Trade Goods. This is a fundamental flaw in the economy system, and as this and other threads show, it is causing a chain reaction among all other products.

It's unrealistic to assume that NPCs are just interested in raw materials and civil commerce. And it is _highly_ unfair to people who prefer the manufacturing aspect of the game (not everyone enjoys killing things and taking their stuff, even if it is in space) to assume NPCs produce all of their own goods. Just another way the traders and industrialists are the real ones who have gotten the shaft.

There needs to be NPC demand for ship parts and ships. The demand doesn't have to be high, but anything is better then nothing.

This demand should be linked to the damages NPC pirates and police take in given regions, but the database might not support that.

Blinder
Caldari
Bloody Hands
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:24:00 - [36]
 

*long tirade snipped before it even got going*

I see a couple things that need to happen to the economy to get prices back up-

NPC's need to stop buying minerals at the same price every day. If there's 50k mexa for sale at 13, the NPC's should grab that before they offer to buy at 16. They should grab from other stations, too, and then put out a courier mission on it (or, multiple courier missions broken down in 200 - 300 m3 lots). This should lower the overall price of minerals, which helps manufacturers out, and also creates many more courier missions (if the mission isn't picked up by a certain time it goes away, and the minerals are put up for sale, by the NPC corp, at the current average demand price).

At the same time the amount of minerals needed to produce things should be increased, at least the lower-level (iso and down) minerals. That way the reduced price on minerals is offset by an increased demand, and it also means that it isn't as easy to just mine your own resources anymore- you need enough minerals to make any decent-sized production runs that you're going to either have to be a large corp or very patient if you want to avoid buying some of the minerals from somewhere else. Maybe even increase the amount of higher-end minerals you need for stuff, but not by as much.

Finally, create a few more asteroid types, that are similarly "valued" as existing rocks, but have different compositions. Then, make it so some minerals are harder to come by in some regions than others.

This way, trade actually starts to develop, in something other than useless trade goods. People who mine can no longer drop mins off for "full price" right in their own backyards, and it becomes more sensible to run mineral trade routes because the price differential should eventually be large enough on some minerals (because they won't be as easy to get in some areas, and as easy to get rid of in others), and manufacturers should start seeing a real cost associated with what they build (since they'll have to import SOMETHING for any interesting products, even if they do go get it themselves).

Finally, make it so everyone can't produce everything everywhere (by adding in industry subskills for things like shipmaking, weaponsmithing, basically a production skill for each product category that you need to have to produce, and some items take higher levels, and also by making factory slots slightly better for some things and incapable of others, depending on the station type. And by reducing BP availability, of course) and then we should see an effective PC-driven economy that *isn't* in a constant state of crash. Yes, there will be times when prices fall, but that's normal. The goal should be to have the PC's create recovery, though, not to bolster the market with NPC demand (as is done for minerals).

Stavros
Amarr
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:35:00 - [37]
 

it saddens me to hear idiots quote about free economy and other such idiotic beliefs. There is no such thing as a free economy and in such a complicated environment as eve the economic side of the game needs to based on rather more than supply and demand. It the current world which is supposedly a 'free market' there are hundreds of checks and balances, trade agreements and other systems to stop the market becoming over saturated with goos that nobody wants. The fault isnt really with any players in particular but with the way the game is built at the moment. Idiots from taggart and other rich corps can moan and whine and call it what they want, but at the end of the day they are already rich and so can afford to make peanuts whilst squashing the opposition out of business. The problem is exascerbated by the rampant copying and swapping of blueprints at the moment.

This game atm is nigh on IMPOSSIBLE for noobs to enter because the economy is totally hosed, you have either been in from the start or you and your corp are poor and unless this is changed it will be rich corps like taggart and rich individuals like me that are the only ones playing the game.

Stav

Jinu
InterSun Freelance
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:06:00 - [38]
 

The basic thing that's missing from the EVE market is a very simple concept: value added.

In the business world this refers to doing something to an item to make it more attractive and usually reduces the amount of work on the consumers end. i.e.: You can grow a head of lettuce, red cabbage, carrots, etc. and make yourself a salad. You could also just go and buy a pre-made salad from a grocery store. The pre-made salad will save you the work of growing the items and making the salad, but it will be more expensive than doing everything yourself though less time consuming.

The head of lettuce, etc. is what we are currently dealing with in the EVE market. Everyone has the opportunity to make everything (at least to a point). Some choose not to and will buy the ships on the market, but they, like any good consumer, will wait until the price is reasonable to them. The pre-made salad is what will change the current situation.

Sell things as package deals. Offer Thoraxes with a choice of fitting options. Offer Iteron Mark V's with Alpha Expanders. People will pay for convenience. If they don't have to hunt down pirates to get those 5 modul heavy beam lasers, but rather can get them with their new Maller for an extra 4 mil over the standard Maller price, they'd probably do it.

Give people choices. For a great deal of consumers that's a big draw to items. Once tech lvls are able to be researched your going to see a widening market.


j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:36:00 - [39]
 

"The basic thing that's missing from the EVE market is a very simple concept: value added."

It's supported, but only at the most basic level -- one can sell the goods at price higher than the sum of component prices.

Things that are missing, on the other hand:

* quality of goods. Every piece of rock holds minerals of the same quality, accessible to anyone regardless of their skills. This results in high level goods being of identical quality as well.

Put materials of different quality in the rocks. Make it possible to survey that quality with specific equipment. Make a link between quality of extracted material with the quality of mining lasers used to get that ore, the skills of the miner and then with skills of the person who refines the ore. Make it so the quality of used materials combined with the skills of the manufacturer results in quality of output product.

Suddenly you have reason to charge different prices for no longer identical products -- the high quality equipment serves longer, is more reliable and produces better results. Low quality is cheap, but is less reliable.

* decay of goods. Related directly to aforememntioned quality. The lower quality, the faster decay. Equipment wears down with use, begins to fail, starts to break down more often. It makes sense to replace old items, introducing demand into the economy.

* maintenance costs. Linked with the decay -- the worse the shape of the item, the more it costs every day to keep it up running. Again, at some point it makes more sense to simply replace items with new ones.

* production costs. Direct result of the maintenance costs. Production costs at the moment are nearly non-existent. With the abovementioned maintenance costs suddenly the corporations have reason to charge more than just mineral price because otherwise they get in the red. They also have to pay attention to their equipment, trying to keep its quality and state good enough to not drive up their costs to the point they are no longer competitive. Meaning, they buy new equipment. Meaning more demand on the market.

* fixed production costs. It takes serious money to build and maintain the factory, to set up production lines, start the production and then to keep it running. But also, maintaining the production is cheaper than starting it. This is why it's more profitable to serialize production of goods, instead of starting the production once a week because it so happens someone needs something. Introduce production costs, and most people other than specialized manufacturers will rather buy the goods on market, simply because it's cheaper for them this way... just like in reality.

And the one thing that's currently wrong:

* NPC demand renewing with every server start, at levels which have nothing to do with real market value. Instead, before the restart store the closing prices, then launch the market using these values. This results in free, demand/supply driven economy as opposed to the current model with government-regulated prices.


Edited by: j0sephine on 08/07/2003 16:41:18

QBall
Caldari
Xtreme Intruders
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:50:00 - [40]
 

Gasp why not just research the crap out of your blueprints then sell them. That is after all why originals are better than copies isnt it? Oh and quit selling the damn researched copies. On another thought, why should you get double mineral cost from selling ships?

Right now manufacturing is still the best way to make money in the game.

The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:55:00 - [41]
 

^

What he said.


Crownan
Posted - 2003.07.08 17:31:00 - [42]
 

What he said was idiotic.

Let me try again. Suppose you want to get into the Moa shipbuilding market. You bust your butt to make 80 Million isk to buy the blueprint.

Even if you were lucky enough to make 1 Million profit on each Moa, you would have to sell (get your calculator you'll probably need it) 80 Moa cruisers before you break even.

You are better off just selling the minerals at that kind of profit margin. You could mine scordite and make enough money to buy a battleship bp before the guy who is just trying to break even on his Moa blueprint by actually selling Moa's.

I hope that makes it a little clearer for you economically challenged.





Edited by: Crownan on 08/07/2003 17:34:47

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2003.07.08 18:06:00 - [43]
 

All you noobs who spout **** about "basic economics" "free market" "undercutting" and "supply and demand" dont really have a ****ing clue.

I am in my 3rd year of an economics degree and I can tell you theres no way you can apply such simplistic economic models to eve.

For a start, production costs are zero (if you mine yourself), there are no economies of scale, in short no barriers to entry of the market. What this means is basically anyone who wants to make the goods, can, and can do so at the same quality and availability as the biggest corps in the market, straight away.(except for BP cost).

As an economic model, this is considered close to perfect competition, and anyone who understands basic economics will know that in perfect competition, prices ALWAYS end up at the level of average costs.

Since ive already stated that production costs are zero (assuming mining themselves), the only cost of any sort is "normal profit", that is, the profit that people are willing to accept on a regular basis.

This means that eventually ship prices will drop to a level of normal profit + cost of time spent. Since most noob manufacturers (a lot of whom have posted here "Im undercutting you innit",) value their time very cheaply, this means I predict within 6 months assuming no changes by CCP, all cruisers will cost less than a million.

If NPC mineral demand is removed (as devs have indicated they want) it could be as low as a few 100 thousand.



The moral: Get out of manufacturing now. Simply put, noobs who value their time less than you do, will always undercut down to Well below mineral cost (since they will mine).


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