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Psylocke
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:31:00 - [1]
 

I woud love to know who these people are that are slaming the market with dirt cheap gear and ships.

This is killin the market, people are just about giving these things away when they should be trying to make a profit. I'd be glad to hire a hitmen to track these bastards down and change thier point of view on selling.

This how low can you go crap needs to be taken care of.

Molly
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:33:00 - [2]
 

My small company is offering a blackmail service. You might want to contact me in game. If you can pay me...

snotty
Amarr
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:44:00 - [3]
 

thats what you get without pirates

now that PvP is no longer in game expect the ship prices to fall to NPC mineral value

Gauss
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:53:00 - [4]
 

Demand is not high enough.

They killed(nerfed!) the main source of ship and equipment demand: m0o piracy.

Now that no one's losing ships there's going to be even less demand.

And prices will continue to fall.

Next time you see ol' Gauss whomping some poor sap in a cruiser, say hello, wave, and say thanks. Perhaps even honk your horn to show your support.

PIRACY IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THE ECONOMY.

die and be thankful your ship could go to bolstering market prices.

gauss
moo

Lansing
Posted - 2003.07.08 01:19:00 - [5]
 

Ahhh come on. Prices have been down around mineral level for over a month. Don't try and put an excuse to it now.
Fact is only newbs and or people not in "corps" etc. or don't have a BP themselves are the only ones buying.
Little or no NPC demand for all the minerals makes people sell minerals in the form of product on the market. And that doesnt even work. Probes at or below 70k Rifters below 250k etc. and you can wait forever to sell the dam things, so the prices keep dropping. Then someone will lower thier price because it's the only way to get the few sales that come along.

The new rental fee's will raise prices but not profits as the same mentality will continue.

The closer to home space the more expensive the factory. Therefore further out can sell for less at the same low low profit, only the lower rent will affect the price. People that do buy in home space don't know any better (newbs)and those that do know better but still buy off the market will travel a bit for the much better price.

Frigates at first were profitable until competition got the prints. Then it was Cruisers. Now it's Battleships, which should last a bit longer then Cruisers did just based on the price of the print.

I stopped manufacturing anything except what I need. Hopefully something new and unique might find its way to me. Until then there's not a lot of point.


Kashre
Minmatar
Imperium Technologies
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2003.07.08 02:21:00 - [6]
 

Hahaha.... I love the presence of Moolings in the game almost as much as I hate (some) of you Moolings on a personal level, you guys add spice.

But dont try and claim responsibility for the dropping ship prices. Even at the height of Moo hysteria ship prices were dropping steadily. I bought my first stabber for 9 mil, and two weeks later, before all the "nerfing" happened, you could get a rupture for that.

Normally Im what the Nerfwhiners call a fanboy, but in this case I think its because CCP has not balanced the dangers against the rewards too well in this game. The NPC pirates in this game are lame. The worst that Ive ever encounterd (about 170k bounty worth of cruisers) are butt simple to destroy with a CA I got from mining noob ore for a couple weeks.

Also, there is no upkeep, so once you get a ship, you never really need to replace it, or any of its equipment.

On the other hand, Ive been pretty dissapointed at the large corps. Look at TTI. They have the size and power to launch a massive, war against predators like MOO, which would amuse us all, and cause Moo to have to buy many many new ships, thus stimulating the market. Instead they paid Moo off.

This should be a game where we can create our OWN content, instead of waiting for a storyline-in-a-can a-la EnB. But I have yet to see much of that happening.

Oh well, off my soapbox now.


EleVata
Posted - 2003.07.08 02:26:00 - [7]
 

I sell "dirt cheap gear" all the time...
I'm not killing the market, I'm under cutting the competition. and I assure you... I'm making a very nice profit.
So I can afford to sell gear cheaper than you can make it... works for me. The catch is you can probably supply a lot more than I can...

SOHAIL
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.08 04:51:00 - [8]
 

This is just happening like what happened in Earth and Beyond, Prices will continius to fall till they are almost equal to the COST. While the prices of rare products will remain constant.

Bentguru
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2003.07.08 05:17:00 - [9]
 

problem isn't the undercutting of prices but the flood of BPs in the market. Take away those and demand goes up

EleVata
Posted - 2003.07.08 05:21:00 - [10]
 

What cost?

Step 1: Mine
Step 2: Refine
Step 3: Manufacture
Step 4: Sell

The only cost is the cost of the actuall manufacturing. or...

Step 1: Hunt
Step 2: Loot
Step 3: Sell

At most you spend on Ammo and Repairs...

If the profit margin isn't high enough for you, find a cheaper way to make or collect the items you plan to sell. If you still don't like the profit margin find another way to make your money.

Myrmex
Nevahefas Etarip
Posted - 2003.07.08 05:30:00 - [11]
 

what you forget before 3 : manufacture is
2.5: go buy a 80 million MOA bleuprint.

nails
Caldari
Ota Corps
Posted - 2003.07.08 05:34:00 - [12]
 

The cost is time.. time which I could be using to pod evil pirates :D

Arondos
Minmatar
Old Timers Guild
Posted - 2003.07.08 06:54:00 - [13]
 

ROFL yeah moo was driving the entire economy....puff, puff, give...

Chagidiel
Minmatar
Cybertronic Corp
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:21:00 - [14]
 

The economy has ofcourse not plunged because of Mo0. Most people hadnt even a clue how a m00 looked like, and much less, benn killed by a moo.

The real resons to why the market is down, I would say:
Too many people has now come to the point, where they get BP:s, so most people get into making theire own ammunition and ships.
In normal life, starting a new production is a big thing. It will take resoureces, it will take investments and when you start it, you have to be willing to risk your capital. Hence, not everyone in the world start to produce theire own things.

In a computergame, theres no really point in not aiming to be selfsufficent with products. Theres no point for my corp to not produce out own ships, ammunition and weapons. So we dont buy anymore, we just produce.
I think there are more and more corps getting there, hence the buyers become fewer and fewer.


Another reson is that computergames always have those types of players that arent into economics at all. For those players, it might seems resonable to sell a product, which consists of rawmaterial worth 4,65 isk, for a cost of 5 isk.
In a real world, people thinking in such economical ways, soon have a bancrupcy at theire hands, while in a computergame, that wount happend.


Crownan
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:27:00 - [15]
 

As Myrnex pointed out, what the drop-outs don't realize is if you continue to drive prices to mineral costs, you will *never* actually get ahead.

Take the Minmater Stabber market for instance. Idiots have driven the price down so low that you're lucky to make 500k over mineral value. Considering the blueprint costs 44.5 million, you would have to sell EIGHTY-NINE (89) Stabber cruisers just to BREAK EVEN.

I wish I could just pound some basic economics into some of these people. Hell, basic math skills would be nice.

Oh, and Molly? Please kill GoHa. He's one of the idiots I'm talking about.


Sanru
Caldari
The Merch
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:41:00 - [16]
 

Reasonable solution I think. Put NPC prices to a reasonable profit level for the product. If a player sells under that, the npc market will buy it and resell at the base price adjusted by demand (but never lower than base). This way prices cannot fall absurdly low, but if you dead set on selling really low your only hurting yourself.

If it isn't obvious by now, you cannot expect players to govern themselves. They won't do it, or at least not effectively. They are very adept at driving stuff into the ground though.

Varsuuk
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:55:00 - [17]
 

BP copying is what killed the profits and it being viable the most. I have never sold a bp copy, I can afford a Stabber BP and a Rupture one in another day prob but all I can do is copy and make couple mill per and further kill the economy, so I don't. I don't have access to Mega so I don't but the bp.

Many do, and because of the way CCP implemented copying (ie: no limit, imo you NEED to be able to copy them for your own security in a system that has a 'finite' amount of bps, lost the orig and you are screwed when they are no longer on the market - quickly for most items)

Now, after this recent patch - the drop rates on low end items and consumables have shot thru the roof - all in an attempt to lower the hi end stuff and still give something.... quite shortsighted and now try selling rockets or certain missles etc... ok now, getting worse dy by day.

Instead of aiding the market they are working on forever skewing it out of feasibility.

Calalbran
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:13:00 - [18]
 

You've lost me on this one.

Why should I sell at prices you want? When by selling under your price I can sell my stuff now, not in a weeks time.

If you want prices to go up, sell yours outfitted with good stuff. Or sell in an area where no-one else is. Or perhaps do a deal, part-payment in ore or minerals.

That way you'll maybe get a better price.
But supply and demand in this game is just like real life - people will undercut to sell quickly, people will not want to pay high prices without extras, and you need to attract customers - not just try and sell for 9 mill when everyone else is selling for 6 mill.

snaazex
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:31:00 - [19]
 

Get a grip.

There is nothing that sais that a mineral or a ship or gear should sell at a given price. There is no given price. There is only supply and demand.

The point is to have a free market and here people can sell what they want for as much/little as they want. If you're shipbuilding business isn't as profitable as it was, then demand is obviously too low. Retool or find other ways to get ahead. You can not seriously be asking CCP to change something just because your profits are dwindeling. That's absurd.

Let the free market reign :)



Chagidiel
Minmatar
Cybertronic Corp
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:31:00 - [20]
 

Calab: In real life, as you know, companys ALWAYS make sure they arent selling to low.

Coca cola(trademark) or any other corporation could sell theire products at much lesser prices, and still make a profit.
But they wont, since they, not only want to profit, but they need to do it with a marginal, a buffert.

In a computergame, corporations, dont acctually need to do that, but can survive without that buffert. This since you dont have to pay salauries, invest, borrow money with intrest to start a new corp, pay taxes to a government and so on.

This means that the prices can always keep sinking, untill they are (which now is the case with some products) at the same price as the cost of the rawmaterial.
Thats a rather unhealth economy for you.

snaazex
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:44:00 - [21]
 

Chagidiel. You missed some basics. If you as a company lower the price for each unit, you may be able to sell more units thus increasing your profit more than just selling fewer units at a high price. You can do the same in EVE with bulk items - ammo for example. Basic economics.

Also, companies IRL regularly sell items at lower than production cost. They try to gain a larger customer base, promotion etc. They reckon they will cash in later. In EVE however I don't think the benfits are that great for doing this...





Edited by: snaazex on 08/07/2003 08:46:42

snaazex
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:45:00 - [22]
 

Double post. sorry...

Edited by: snaazex on 08/07/2003 08:45:37

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.07.08 08:45:00 - [23]
 

Well, I'll give you a good reason why we rarely buy cruisers any more - we have a blueprint of our own for each of the ones we use (we even have enough now for a BS blueprint original, but we can't really justify the price as we're not manufacturers). Not to sell, but just to make ships for ourselves. I don't think we're in any way unique in doing that either. The only time I buy ships is when I can't be bothered to return to base to grab one for a particular purpose - for example I have numerous Bestowers dotted about the galaxy as my own rather speed personal transport.

It's been said before - copies of blueprints are too widely available and if you're doing it for yourself once you have a blueprint your cost is as close to 0 as it gets if you're willing to mine the minerals. Even if you buy them there are plenty of places where you can pick them up at low prices.

All-in-all it's got nothing to do with m0o, prices have been steadily dropping for as long as I can remember (I started almost at the very beginning of retail).

Bolka
Caldari
Posted - 2003.07.08 10:20:00 - [24]
 


I think one of the problems is that all corps in this game want to produce and resell, driving the offer a lot higher than the demand. Corps have a large mining force, corps have the BPs, corps prohibits their members to BUY ships, producing these themselves, and corps sell all they can. Prices drop, and corps want to sell even more to keep money coming in.

I hear CCP wants to introduce new products into the game, under the form of rare, very rare, and even unique BPs. This would force the production to a low output, but wouldn't help the demand at all. I'm skeptical wether this will be good, since the majority of players are 'employed' in the production, most would go 'out of business'.

This all point out towards the diversity of activities available in the game. The offer is too high because fighting taken apart, it is the only 'activity generator' in the game, generating trade, mining, and general activity. If all these people don't produce, what do they do? If they go out of business, what will they do? The answer has to be: any activity that generates demand, and pirating, whilst going in the right direction, is not suffisant.

The too low price offers are not a permanent problem in a normal economic environement, it is rather easy to fight dumping, and it has been fought sucessfuly in this game where demand is still high.



Dan Forever
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Posted - 2003.07.08 10:42:00 - [25]
 

I have a couple of ideas that could be solutions to this problem:

The first is the idea that the Devs posted on the devblog - limit the number of items that can be manufactured from a BP Copy. This is a mixed bag - it would definately help, considering the current situation, but it would also damage a lot of corps that spent lots of ISK on copies - perhaps when CCP make this change every, for every copy that a corp has changed, they are given a sum of money equal to half it's NPC value (or something along those lines).

The second would be to create some kind of Corp Tax - At the end of every week Corporations would be billed, and if they fail to pay this bill the corporation goes into bankuptcy and is deformed. (forgive me if this is already implimented, as I'm not involved in actually running my corp, but if it is, might be an idea to raise the bill, maybe on a per member level?)

Paddyman
This will look bad on your killboard
Capital Storm
Posted - 2003.07.08 10:42:00 - [26]
 

One thing that might sort out the prices and is what ccp seem to think will is the newer tech levels. At the moment the bp's that are widely available are only the low tech level, which i think ccp wanted common and freely available so that any corp can set up a basic operation(ie. make there own basic ships and equipment). As we hopefully in a month or two will look back at this present equipment and think it crap and that it should be cheap.

However, with the newer tech levels they already said they will be rare which means prices will not crash like with the present tech lvl equipment.

I asked this question before but no-one seemed to know will there be tech lvl 2 ships, I.E a Moa MK2 with more cap or powergrid. If there was and they kept the BP's rare as promised it could help sort out ship prices.

Chagidiel
Minmatar
Cybertronic Corp
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:06:00 - [27]
 

Snaaz:
I expect you know a thing or two about economics, so here goes...

When lowering the price in a RL corp, you still have a profit, and a buffert at that profit.
You also, as a corp, has a credibility to think of, which is why, in a market research, many corps, not only asks theire possible customers what the highest price they could imagine pay for the product, but also what the lowest price would be, before you would think something is wrong with the product.

In RL, there also never is an infinite amount of rawmaterial, nor is there a willingness to sell at under the productioncost any longer times.

True, some corps will selling products at under expenses some time, so that they will get loyal customers, just as you mentioned. This, however can never be the case here, since noone ever knows from which corporation they are buying. The brand, is not a competition factor. The only competition factor here is, availebelity, quantity and price, which ofcourse is to few competition factors to create a real free market.

I have to go now, but my point is, that this is a simulation of a free market, and not a real free market, and as we can not create a true freemarket, we need some restricions, and controls to make our model more like the real thing.


Azhraell
Gallente
Draconis Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:07:00 - [28]
 

AFAIK, there will be such items - Moa mk2, Tristan mk2, etc, which will be different from present ones, including slightly changed models and textures. And it will be possible to research BPs to alter stats, not just for mineral efficiency.
And apparently there will also be completely new ships, possibly requiring levels above 3 in their respective class.

ABNTanker
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:08:00 - [29]
 

Wasnt there supposed to be a limit on how many originals of an item would be thrown into the universe and a limit to how many times you could make a copy? I think the current system is screwing everything up and everyone has a copy of a blueprint they want if not the original.

Ulendar
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.08 11:47:00 - [30]
 

Fairly simple really...

The solution to this is sooo simple that its juts to hilarious to think it hasnt been implemented yet...

While we are talking about ocupations in EVE anyways...lets take a look at the most common profession in EVE..

MINING..

Why is mining still the most steady and reliable source of income in the game?

Simple answer!

NPC DEMAND!

If there was NPC demand on minerals then howmuch do you think all those guys in 1.0 would be getting for their isogen around this time?

Lets face it..isogen is in low demand and VERY HIGH supply. Ships dont need much isogen to be built and there isnt much use for isogen other then that but STILL the mining economy is thriving on isogen! Simply because any and everyone can sell them at 64isk in an npc station..

If there was no NPC demand for minerals howmuch do you think isogen would be worth today?

30isk? 10isk?

Wont be much because morons who cant see a price without undercutting it would find new and exciting ways to undercut further by placing very low pricing on minerals!

Ask yourself...

Why is it that ships are stuck at productioncost?

It is because minerals have a SET value wich is NPC standard price. 1 for trit, 4 for pyerite, 16 for mex ect ect.

This is why ships are stuck at productioncost atm.

If there was no NPC demand on minerals then ships would cost now what? 2 mil for a top end cruiser? Laugh if you like...its true!

The very simple solution to the dropping market price is NPC demand on ships!

ANd why the heck would there be NPC demand on ships?

I see minmatar police piloting bellicose cruisers....i see angel nomands piloting merlins....

And howmuch pirates get blow up everyday? A few thousand? Why the heck shouldnt there be NPC demand? O_o

Ok so there IS npc demand...yeah wouw it doesnt even cut production costs by half. The NPC demand on ships curently is a joke!

Lets take the Minmatar Rupture cruiser for example...i like ruptures...

During the duration of beta everyone was buying ruptures at 15 milion a pop... YES 15! NOT 5!

The reason for this was the lack of blueprints..

But leaving that asside...

If NPC generated a demand for ruptures and bought at 10 milion...you would always have the option to sell to NPC. Why would you sell your ships to a player that wants to pay 5 mil tops? You wouldnt...youd just sell em to NPC. This would drive down the supple...and bump up the price to atleast 12mil. And everyone not liking the price of 12mil can always buy at npc for 15 ;).

Ofcourse 12mil is a hell of a profit margin...yes indeed it is BUT part of the reason why there is curently a huge supply of cruisers on the market is because of the low pricing people have to sell HUNDREDS of ships just to break even with the cost of the blueprint!

A player ran market is well and good...and im sure it can work but the players themselves are just not ready for it! There needs to be a set margin somewhere...and this would be npc demand and pricing!

quit trying to undercut underneath productioncosts! You wont gain anything by this AT ALL. Your customers WONT come back and start paying more after you sold 2 million cruisers!


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