open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked The Sentry Gun Debate
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic

Molly
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:16:00 - [61]
 

"yup, you take .352 for attacking player corps in a 0.0 sector. Molly ran into this in The SYndicate."

This was like:

- Attack a The Gang member in 0.0 Syndicate. Get a security hit.
- Warp to him to a station. Attack him. Get a security hit.
- Warp away to reload shields. Warp back. Attack. Get a security hit.
- Wait for him undocking opponents. Attack. Get a security hit.

Of course none of us has waited for the opponent to lock and to fire first.

30 mins fighting = -1.8. Buhahaha. No ships lost. Where is the sense here?

Destroy a vessel of someone who attacked you in a system before and pod him = -2.6. Where is the sense here?

Shoot a few drones in 0.2 empire space = -1.2. Where is the sense here?

Makes about -5.6.

Stay out for 56 days (46 with an agent) or be a blinken lights show, get a bounty, silly carebear questions why you are not a pirate, get shot by a RUS dude passing by, bla bla bla.

The carebear whining and screwed system made me finally what I've been pushed into: A paid criminal. Now I am dealing with it *eg*.

I don't like the "gray ganking" serial killer play style of m0o and friends and it's fine to see a system preventing this. But this one lacks common sense and has been changed too much.

We have a lot of people on the server with a rating around 10.0 from the "first" version. Easy NPC pirate shooting gain.

Then we have the "second" version with no gain at all.

And now we have the "third" version with no gain at all and attacks in 0.45+ by sentry guns and police.

Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:47:00 - [62]
 

[ That was never in the design plans. If it were in the design plans there would be no need for a security rating system. ]


I played the beta, I remember making the mistake of jumping into to High a sec and being targeted by the gate guns. I had been testing the cargo scanner and shot a fellow player thus taking a -.2 hit. So you would argue that just because the sec rating and guns at the gates reacting to your rating, just as the current setup, was not intended?


[Obviously, it's you that have not done any trade routes. I choose not to run trade routes but that does not mean I'm totally ignorant of them either. If I wanted to, I could hop into an industrial right now and start running a short trade route with a 50 isk per item profit margin. NPC trade route. With plenty of supply and demand.]

Ok.. I'll open the regional market and look (32 items). I will not list all the items that are for sale but have no demand

The first item is:
data sheets Best buy. 150 isk Best sell 151 isk Thats a whopping 1 isk per unit profit.

Frozen food Best buy: 92 Best demand: 106
Wow thats a staggering 14 isk per unit profit

Planetary Vehicles Best Buy: 3952 Best demand: 3822
Wow you can lose 130 isk per unit. I have see this a lot, where the demand price is lower than the sell price.

Polytextiles, Supply price 424 Demand 434
Whoo hoo you can make 10 isk a unit

Quaff Buy 30 sell 34


[That I found simply glancing at the market. More people have repeatedly stated the ability to profit in millions of isk per hour inside Empire Space with no risk whatsoever. ]

Hmm lets see the best proffit was on frozen foods. in my horder I can load 2024 units of frozen foods, thats 28,336 isk profit per run. The closest run is 13 jumps. At 3 min per jump 39 min not counting docking time. So the max I could do in an hour is 2 runs (if I got a load to run back). If however I have to come back and get another load then the most I could do in an hour is 1 run becuse of the travel time.

So what would it take to make a 1 mil proffit in an hour. Well lets say you found a 10 jump run and was able to get a load both ways. at 14 isk profit you would need to carry 71428.6 units or 35714.3 units each way. My mammoth can not carry that much with 22% expanders.


[Now I may not be the most powerful Pirate Hunter in the game. But I'm 16 jumps from Empire Space atm, fighting 4-5 missile equipped pirates simultaneous. Inside of an hour I might cover 100k. I've already racked up way past that in repair bills on my cruiser. So I think it's time for you to put your precious industrial on the line.]

Odd.. I just spent the morning in piroit (the syndicate) killing NPC pirates. For now I will ignore the bounties I got and focus on the loot I just melted down.

I got:
220110 Iso: 14,087,040 isk
109 Meg: 654,000 isk
80014 Mex: 320,056 isk
3951 Nox: 1,011,456 isk
345,444 Pye: 1,381,776
9,752,579 trit: 9,752,579 isk
139 Zyd: 142,336 isk

For a grand total of 14,670,903 isk I made today killing NPC pirates. And you wonder why I dont bother with PKers, theres no profit in it but I digress.

If you not making half this killing NPCs then you are in the wrong area. Oh and get your refine to lvl5 and your eff to lvl3 or better.

Now, where is the real isk? Mining? Not unless your mining bisk. Trade routes? Please.. Missions.. No isk but something more valuable but thaqts for a later discussuion. Hunting player pirats? Dont make me laff. The real isk is in hunting 0.0 NPC pirates.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 01:27:00 - [63]
 

<< I played the beta, I remember making the mistake of jumping into to High a sec and being targeted by the gate guns. I had been testing the cargo scanner and shot a fellow player thus taking a -.2 hit. So you would argue that just because the sec rating and guns at the gates reacting to your rating, just as the current setup, was not intended? >>

I don't know what beta you took part in. But I never was attacked by any guns at a stargate. Because they didn't exist. The only times I was attacked by sentry guns at stations was when I got too focused on my prey and fired on them within the gun's activation radius. And I sported down to a -10.0 sec rating at one time, all earned dishonestly.

As for your rebuttal on trade routes, I've flown past better trade routes than that and I was only looking through curiousity. I don't have any industrial skill to fully exploit one. But I've seen very easy trade routes worth more than that and people are running them.

None of your arguments changes my position because from what I can see, you're stretching. And failing rather badly at that. So rather than get distracted with you, I'll just agree to disagree with you. But these are the facts, whether you want to believe them or not:

1) With the ammo range modifications and the changes to gun tracking, it has gotten even easier for a ship to make it past a blockade even if jammed and webified.

2) With the addition of sentry guns the Risk and the Fear of Risk disappeared, sparking traders to load up to the gills knowing there is nothing in space that can stop them.

3) With the addition of the sentry guns, the chances of intercepting any prey for a pirate all but disappeared. I did not say "Easy prey". I said "Any prey". The Eve Universe is too large with too many routes to fly to intercept anything beyond the occasional group. I work in 0.0 space now and I have seen 1 person the entire time, despite basing out of the only station in the region I'm in.

4) The sentry guns were not in the original plan. The original plan had Concord providing security in Empire space, with their response time decreasing as the sec rating lowered until you reach 0.0 where they would not respond at all.

You can create any fallacies you wish, Athren, in an attempt to prevent PvP as much as possible. But that's what they are: false.

Pacala
Gallente
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.08 07:04:00 - [64]
 

I'm surprised none of you thought to look at the issue like this.

CCP put the gate guns in the game now to get us used to the sight. They will fix the behavior of these guns at a later date.

On a side note, how come the existence of station guns in 0.0 space isn't questioned? Could it be that a station is a big-ticket item owned and operated by a faction? Hmmmmm. Why couldn't a gate be considered a big-ticket item that's owned by a faction? ::evil grin::

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.07.08 09:49:00 - [65]
 

>>
Trade routes? Please...
>>

It's quite clear you haven't found out where the nice routes are. Unless you're lucky you won't find them at a glance.

Right now, from what I can read from the forums, traders are having a boom time - just like miners and pirates have had in the past. Unlike the other two types CCP doesn't need to do anything about it for the situation to normalise again - exploited routes tend to each others prices (eventually s***ping over into a loss situation) and supply/demand gets used up in time.

And of course, trading is no longer the best money maker. Exploring is. Read the eve-i forums and you'll find someone who has over 100 bookmarks - these you can copy at will and at no risk of loss whatsoever. You can even travel around using standard equipment such as a cheap mid-range cruiser or an indi packed with ABs and overdrive injectors. There'll always be a way to get ahead of the game and while people are busy moaning about miners, traders, pirates, manufacturers, hunters or whatever this week's flavour is there'll be someone else making money.

As for pirates, sure traffic may not be as high in outer regions - but is it so hard to sit outside a supplier with a passive targetter and a cargo scanner?

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 12:33:00 - [66]
 

<<On a side note, how come the existence of station guns in 0.0 space isn't questioned? Could it be that a station is a big-ticket item owned and operated by a faction? Hmmmmm. Why couldn't a gate be considered a big-ticket item that's owned by a faction? ::evil grin:: >>

Nobody bothers to question the sentry guns on a station in 0.0 space because their eistance only affects 1/2 of the viable areas to fight PvP. Now if there were sentry guns on the stargates in 0.0 space, people might get a little upset. If they started firing on people that fought in front of them, people would get highly upset. If they went active because you had a too low (or even too high) a security rating, CCP would bar the doors against the mob.

Silver Striker
Posted - 2003.07.08 13:53:00 - [67]
 

When are we going to see sentry guns that players can place? I don't think sentry guns need to be placed in very many low sec systems, but when a system has 50+ pods in 24 hours it seems reasonable that hte faction owning that system would put them there to stop that. Pirates may whine that it isn't fair because they can't hold hte gate free of charge anymore, but if they want that gate they can blow up the guns.

BTW has anyone tried to destroy the guns? They are not invulnerable are they?

If they'd bring in the player deployable turrets we could drop them ourselves and make the pirates work a bit harder to stay.

Silver

BSOD
Gallente
Calista Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 13:58:00 - [68]
 

"Right now, from what I can read from the forums, traders are having a boom time - just like miners and pirates have had in the past. Unlike the other two types CCP doesn't need to do anything about it for the situation to normalise again - exploited routes tend to each others prices (eventually s***ping over into a loss situation) and supply/demand gets used up in time."
European traders that don't work an RL job are having a boom time.

Try living in the USA and working an RL job, where you don't log in until 8 hours after downtime.

By that point, there is no profit anywhere. (Note: I do check inter-region trade, I have alts parked in a few non-home regions.)

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 13:59:00 - [69]
 

<< When are we going to see sentry guns that players can place? I don't think sentry guns need to be placed in very many low sec systems, but when a system has 50+ pods in 24 hours it seems reasonable that hte faction owning that system would put them there to stop that. Pirates may whine that it isn't fair because they can't hold hte gate free of charge anymore, but if they want that gate they can blow up the guns.

BTW has anyone tried to destroy the guns? They are not invulnerable are they?

If they'd bring in the player deployable turrets we could drop them ourselves and make the pirates work a bit harder to stay.

Silver
>>

People have suggested already that when a system starts to see too much action that Concord step up their patrolling in that system. If Concord's reaction time escalated according to the number of ships destroyed for a while, it would force pirates to move around instead of staying in one place. That would be more than acceptable and more fitting as well.

But sentry guns are grossly out of proportion to the situation.

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:01:00 - [70]
 

I tested this myself (at the cost of 1m in repairs, thank god for modules) early this morning.

Sentry guns in .5 sectors respawn within 20 seconds and deal huge amounts of damage (I was never hit for anything less than 120pts, and thats with 2 shield hardeners and Medium Shield Ward). In .4s they respawn within 30 seconds and deal on average 100pts of damage (With all boosters running).

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:07:00 - [71]
 

>>
European traders that don't work an RL job are having a boom time.

Try living in the USA and working an RL job, where you don't log in until 8 hours after downtime.
>>

Funny, I have a RL job and although I'm in the euro side of the world I do most of my trading late at night during peak US hours or first thing in the morning on weekends. Sure there may not be any of these same system/3 hop routes but if you do your homework there are always viable routes to run - both within empire space and in/out of it.

Have fun
Finn

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:11:00 - [72]
 

The guns take a long time to kill. With a team of a few cruisers and a battleship all fitted with the best items on the test server we took out a sentry gun. Only moments after we started to kill the other one the first one respawned. It would be really cool if they stayed gone for 10-20 minutes. I think I had to reload my scouts 3 times before the first one died and it was getting hit by all sorts of torps and drones and damage boosted guns. So forget the idea that you could kill a sentry gun a camp a gate for a bit, it won't happen.

Fusco T
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:26:00 - [73]
 

""When and if they decide to take such a risk is up to each player.""

Here to me was the key statement. Sorry to rush back to the topic.

At this point routes through high sec space will have you going through .4 and even .3 space eventually. Maybe the real problem lies in the fact of having high sec routes and lower ones.

As for sentry guns. NOT ALL EMPIRE SPACE GATES HAVE SENTRY GUNS!!! Take a look around.

Yes most do and I don't claim that it's not that way. However there are places out there.

I've never seen such whining as coming from the PC pirates. Maybe if CCP would stop spoon feeding you guys, you could actually come up with a workable strategy.

Jash if trading is sooo bloody easy with no risk etc... Then go do it and stop your *****in'. Just like people claim that pirating is hard and can't be appreciated without walking a mile in their shoes etc.. Take the hit to your precious gunnery skills and train something that will never help you kill a thing.

So instead of concieving a 'live and let live' idea I see a number of PC pirate sympathizers who can't come up with an original idea. Hell Jash you don't even understand your opening quote.

Sorry if this is coming off as a flame. But PC pirates asked for everything that is happening. Certain pirate activity was causing subscription losses because of the above quote. PC pirates forced CCP's hand to do something immediate and drastic.

Personally I like the idea of some PvP. Others I know don't, and no amount of useless dung flinging is going to have them change their minds.

So my suggestion is to either come up with a REAL solution to your percieved problem that allows other players to choose PvP or quit the crying.

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.08 14:38:00 - [74]
 

The solution is simple. Move all the good trade so it either starts or finishes in empire space but not both. Here is an example. In empire space they sell robotics but there would be no demand. Out in 0.0 the NPC pirate corps have demand for robotics and just so happen to be selling spiced wine that you can't get anywhere in empire space. Now you have all this potential money to be made for traders AND player pirates. It lets the traders like me make loads of cash if I'm quick or pay for some heavy back up and it gives the pirates something to do while at the same time increasing my fun because I'll actually have to have the game to the front instead of this forum. Is that so hard?

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:24:00 - [75]
 

<< Jash if trading is sooo bloody easy with no risk etc... Then go do it and stop your *****in'. Just like people claim that pirating is hard and can't be appreciated without walking a mile in their shoes etc.. Take the hit to your precious gunnery skills and train something that will never help you kill a thing. >>

If I wanted to be a bloody trader, I'd have industrial skills plus a fleet of indies by now. Instead I have a Rupture, a Stabber, A Bellicose, and a Rifter.

Now tell me what right you have to tell me how to play a game that I paid for. Where I get to choose what career I want to seek. Where those options are rendered invalid because YOU want your cake (high trade profit) and eat it too (no risk for the profit).

Now you can flame me all you want but you stepped wrong when you told me to abandon a valid career choice that's displayed prominently on the box and advertisement. I don't want to be you.

Fusco T
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:27:00 - [76]
 

There ya' go. Good idea. Add a little content to entice players from the safety of empire space, besides mob hunting.

However the risk vs reward on robotics to 0.0 space may not all be there. The reward should probably be pumped up.

As it stands one of the best routes out there will net you about 525 per hold. For a 28 jump (14 each way) trip. minus the 17.9 per hold tax. So 507.1 per hold can be had on one of the better routes.

In order to realize that one has to put forth 3055 per hold. Roughly 6 times the potential profit.

As it stood with pirates ability to camp .4 the risk vs reward for robotics was actually quite poor. In fact trading in general was not worth the time.

I understand risk is a good thing however with that risk should come the reward. If I was to gamble 16+ mil to make 2.4mil and had to spend 2 hours travelling. How uber is trading? Not very. Most of us can kill mobs and pick up loot at a faster rate.

Possibly make the demand in 0.0 space really high so that it may entice traders to deal with a very long haul.

Fusco T
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:39:00 - [77]
 

If you read the post you would see that I did not ask you to abandon your 'profession'. To the contrary I gave you a suggestion.

Above I posted the numbers on a good trade route that I know of. That isn't great money.

But more to the point. If YOU feel trading is soo profitable, then do it! Otherwise you have no right whatsoever to *****, which is what your doing.

Why does CCP have to hold your hand? Why can't you figure out a better way to be a prick in game? err I mean a pirate.

Criminals have always had to adapt to an evolving security/information age. You need to adapt to be successful in all things. So security took a step forward. You must be prepared for that and take two steps yourself.

Or does your 12.95 give you more rights than others in this game? Is your money somehow more important that CCP should offer you pirating 101 classes? Pirates risk vs reward is supposed to be the greatest (greatest risk but also greatest reward).

The pre-patch game had greatest reward for least risk for pirates. CCP recognized that and changed the game accordingly.

slipshot
Posted - 2003.07.08 15:59:00 - [78]
 

So, why before the patch did ppl on trade runs try and jump the blockaded gates - they could have safely made money without going near the blockades, the blockades were well publicised - if you didn't want the rsik then you didn't need to go near them. I know, i never did and i was doing just fine (if going a slow place) Ppl tried to run them becasue they could get better deals on the other side of them, get access to cheaper equipment and better trade routes - OR to put it another way, the gain justified the risk. Now there is no risk, but still the gain -how can you even consider this to be balanced?

Exploiters were crap, they ruined the game - but the majority of pirates were not exploiters.

They have gone too far the other way imo and need to readdress the balance. It would be interesting to see how many ppl would have bought the game if there was no, or very difficult, PvP action. I know i wouldn't have, because having human adversieries is why i play on line games in the first place....

And no, i have never killed another player in the game and yes have lost ships.....

Fusco T
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:39:00 - [79]
 

The reward is NOT there. Show me a trade route that makes considerably more money than hardcore mob hunting.

Two things:

1) to trade or mine one has to invest training skills in things OTHER than combat. For less risk gain.

2) Mob/player hunters get to train primary combat skills and have much less risk.

How was the way it was fair to the trader? A guy would have to run robotics route 6 times to make up for 1 jacked load. That's 12 hours roughly.

A robotics hauler had to run around in a defenseless ship risking 3 times the cost of a cruiser.

This compared to a pirate who would stand to lose nothing more than his ship but only if he couldn't click jump in time.

Obe had 9 pod kills last night. That's empire space. Why are certain pirates having problems and others aren't?

Could it be that they are simply too carbear and **** poor players with no imagination?

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.08 16:45:00 - [80]
 

Obe is bordered by 0.0 space, its a chokepoint, and one of the only areas in game where you can get to a low security empire spot by traveling through non-empire space.


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 17:26:00 - [81]
 

<< your 'profession'. To the contrary I gave you a suggestion.

Above I posted the numbers on a good trade route that I know of. That isn't great money.

But more to the point. If YOU feel trading is soo profitable, then do it! Otherwise you have no right whatsoever to *****, which is what your doing.
>>

I call that telling me to abandon what I'm doing.

<< Why does CCP have to hold your hand? Why can't you figure out a better way to be a prick in game? err I mean a pirate.

Criminals have always had to adapt to an evolving security/information age. You need to adapt to be successful in all things. So security took a step forward. You must be prepared for that and take two steps yourself.
>>

I'm not the person that ran to CCP begging for protection from the bad ole pirates. I told many people many times easy ways to evade the pirates, many which I used myself. So who asked CCP to hold their hands? Me, the person that met the challenge the pirates presented under the implemented mechanics? Or you, the person that had to resort to having the mechanics changed?

<< Or does your 12.95 give you more rights than others in this game? Is your money somehow more important that CCP should offer you pirating 101 classes? Pirates risk vs reward is supposed to be the greatest (greatest risk but also greatest reward).

The pre-patch game had greatest reward for least risk for pirates. CCP recognized that and changed the game accordingly.
>>

The pre-patch game had the better reward for less risk to pirates than current, no argument. But the greatest? Hell no. Even balanced against the risk? Hell no. You've never been a pirate. Tell me how piracy gave the greatest reward, or even balanced reward to the risk, when:
1) 9 times out of 10 a smart player would evade you completely
2) 50% of the times you resorted to using your weapons, you received no profit whatsoever (because it was destroyed)
3) The pirate had to put their ship at risk in an unknown situation, against targets that were never predictable. Mining, trading, npc pirate hunting all have easily predictable risks. Not piracy
4) Before you could even attempt to be a pirate, you had to put significant investment in skill training and equipment aquisition. You cannot jump straight from Pator Tech into piracy, like you can mining, npc hunting.
5) Despite all that, you still made less isk per hour than all other endeavors in Eve.

Now, if you can restrain yourself from insults do feel free to try to rebut any of those intelligently. If you can't, flame away

Fusco T
Posted - 2003.07.08 18:06:00 - [82]
 

Well no one is saying abandon being a pirate. You said that. Trying to interpret 'go try trading for youself' is hardly asking you to switch professions.

You make an assertion that trading is uber cash with zero risk. I say it isn't.

As an intended victim (trader) not only was he making average cash but also had the same unpredictability you mention as the bane of pirates. So he was getting doubly screwed and add to that risking much more in the way of a 16mil + cargo.

So they have changed the game. Did I request guns at all gates? No. Did I wish to see things changed from giving traders/miners the lions share of risk in this game? Yes.

I am no pirate that is true. However by the same token how do you speak of trading with seeming authority? Probably because you see how the game mechanics work and except for the minutia have it figured out. So we can lay that hypocrisy aside and assume we both know a certain amount of what the other does.

Now I know for a fact that there are not guns at every gate through empire space. What is so hard about scoping these out, figuring out escape paths, setting up BMs etc...?

As for greatest reward I believe I was correct. No other profession can change the net value of two corps to a greater degree.

Example:

Indy hauling robotics (small load of about 2300 units).

You as a pirate open up on him and destroy his ship and then pod kill him.

You pick up let's say half the robotics as rest were destroyed.

Pirate corp +8mil

Trading corp -16mil robotics, -1 mil for ship, -200k for new clone, -time to go buy new ship and mods.

So the NET change between your corps' funds is 25.2mil plus time.

Show me one other area in eve that has that type of fiscal return. I'll make it simple, there are none.

Pirates are also in a better situation as pertains to training. Without wasting points on mining, trading, indy, refining, prod eff, etc... You get to train nothing but combat/ship skills.

To compensate/balance the game, the greatest risk has to be married to the greatest reward.

I'm sure that with a little effort you and others of your ilk could find people to kill and rob from in 0.0 or systems devoid of sentry guns.

Miners/traders/mob hunters must spend time researching best areas, safe ways of travelling, good markets, competition with fellow corps etc... Why is it expected that CCp work out a system of piracy for you? You need to find it.

I think the most difficult transition for pirates is you went from a braindead easy operation to having to think about it a little and now it's not fair.

Not once did you seek to mitigate the circumstances niether did any pirates. So therefore CCP solved the problem the way they saw fit. So if you want to blame traders and miners for your difficulty that is fine. But the true culprit is pirates exploiting the ease of screwing over new players.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 18:53:00 - [83]
 

<< Well no one is saying abandon being a pirate. You said that. Trying to interpret 'go try trading for youself' is hardly asking you to switch professions.
>>
Don't have to. I've done it. But I'll get to that in a minute.

<< You make an assertion that trading is uber cash with zero risk. I say it isn't.

As an intended victim (trader) not only was he making average cash but also had the same unpredictability you mention as the bane of pirates. So he was getting doubly screwed and add to that risking much more in the way of a 16mil + cargo.
>>

A trader can offset their risk easily through tactic or through teamwork. If they go it alone, they have to use tactics. Otherwise in order to cash in on big score, they have to use teamwork. If they choose to use neither, then average cash is exactly what they're supposed to make.

<< I am no pirate that is true. However by the same token how do you speak of trading with seeming authority? Probably because you see how the game mechanics work and except for the minutia have it figured out. So we can lay that hypocrisy aside and assume we both know a certain amount of what the other does. >>

I've not analyzing game mechanics and guessing at the risks. I ran cargos with far less restrictions on piracy for far heftier amounts than people currently are. Yeap, I ran drugs during beta through Fountain/Curse. 80 million isk worth of cargo for about 12m-15m profit per run. In 0.0 space with player pirates all around the area and extremely easily defined chokepoints. All total profit while running them was somewhere in the neighborhood of 130m-150m per day. I've also run electronics, vehicles, antibiotics and other low end goods. I ran plutonium when Stavros was blockading systems with demand and taking out traders that were foolish (a couple fell for traps he set).

So I do speak from some real experience. Experience where pirates were far less restricted, the tools availible to lessen the risk (such as the map filters) didn't exist, and the only indies availible were the lowest class ones (no mwd in them). So before you say "That was during beta", I'll tell you it was far more difficult to do it during beta and people still made obscene profits.

<< As for greatest reward I believe I was correct. No other profession can change the net value of two corps to a greater degree.

Example:

Indy hauling robotics (small load of about 2300 units).

You as a pirate open up on him and destroy his ship and then pod kill him.

You pick up let's say half the robotics as rest were destroyed.

Pirate corp +8mil

Trading corp -16mil robotics, -1 mil for ship, -200k for new clone, -time to go buy new ship and mods.

So the NET change between your corps' funds is 25.2mil plus time.
>>

And you ignore plenty by looking at just successful intercepts as if that was all that ever happened. With planning on the individual trader's part pirates can be eluded successfully. Alternate routes or simply not flying directly into blockaded stargates from known routes both easily get a serious trader, one with the ships and skills appropriate for carrying multi million isk cargos, past blockades. For a corporation, it's even easier. Just add more guns. The pirates themselves will tell you they won't generally fight overwhelming odds.

<< Show me one other area in eve that has that type of fiscal return. I'll make it simple, there are none. >>

Yes, piracy looks real lucrative when you're looking at it from the perspective of someone that just lost their cargo. What you don't see is the number of people that escape clean (no profit), the expeditures in time without intercepting anyone (no profit). Even m0o on their rampages ended up with more basic mining lasers, omber and tons of trit than that 1 jackpot cargo. Toss in the constant danger from non-pirates, the constant risk of attack whereever you went and the unpredictability of that next 'boom' you hear signalling a jump in is actually a small armada coming to take you out. All the way out.

Pirates weren't everywhere. They couldn't be everywhere. They did not intercept everyone. They can not intercept everyone. But you pretend that all they got was an endless gravy train of nothing but 15m+ cargos. Which is total nonsense.

<< I'm sure that with a little effort you and others of your ilk could find people to kill and rob from in 0.0 or systems devoid of sentry guns. >>

Why don't you try finding someone in 0.0 space? Hell, right now I'm making it very easy if someone wanted to attack me. I'm 1 jump away from the ONLY station in an entire region. You know how many people I've seen there in the past week? ONE. The only reason people are out in 0.0 space is to mine and hunt NPCs. And there are too many places where they can do that for anyone to effectively track.

<< [i]Miners/traders/mob hunters must spend time researching best areas, safe ways

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 18:57:00 - [84]
 

Continued from above

<< Miners/traders/mob hunters must spend time researching best areas, safe ways of travelling, good markets, competition with fellow corps etc... Why is it expected that CCp work out a system of piracy for you? You need to find it. >>

So did pirates in Empire Space. You think Mara/Passari was an accident? There are dozens of chokepoints in low sec space throughout all the Empires. But why Mara/Passari? Because it was profitable. And they got nerfed for doing their homework.

<< I think the most difficult transition for pirates is you went from a braindead easy operation to having to think about it a little and now it's not fair.

Not once did you seek to mitigate the circumstances niether did any pirates. So therefore CCP solved the problem the way they saw fit. So if you want to blame traders and miners for your difficulty that is fine. But the true culprit is pirates exploiting the ease of screwing over new players.
>>

For the absolute last time, I AM NOT A PIRATE! Geez. I started after the security rating change and I have a .3 sec rating so that should tell you how many players I've attacked vs the number of npc pirates I've attacked.

You want to make tons of isk off of easy trade with no interference from player pirates. The tons of isk are meant for people that actually risk something. I risked attack from pirates by basing out of the low security arm of Metropolis daily to get the equipment and isk I have now. And I didn't mind it 1 bit. It was worth the risk. But people who could not deal with the risk required to make large, profitable trade runs complained until sentry guns were stuck everywhere. Additionally jacking player pirates that had the highest Risk vs the lowest Reward over time than anyone. That's the part you miss: over time. Yeah, they hit the occasional jackpot. But that was not the norm.

Fusco T
Posted - 2003.07.08 20:35:00 - [85]
 

My example of a good robotics haul was just that. It is something that is not the norm but rather a potential. In fact higher potentials exist and will exist when blackmarket trading goes live as you suggest with drugs etc.. Those people I imagine will have to go through 0.0 to do those great runs.

Pirates may not make the most money over time but can do quite well and still have the biggest potential. Which mirrors RL fairly well. Many criminals live in squalor and often risk going to jail for 15 years for 40 dollars in a register.

I don't think pirates in this game need to use a fence either to move the stolen loot.

TBH I think making 99% of empire space off limits was probably a bit drastic. However a route through all empire regions has to exist where a player has the choice not to PvP if he so wishes. Then maybe they could remove some of the guns.

The idea is balance. Before it was too much. Moo and the rest of them forcing brand new players into PvP before half of them knew what a 'mod' was.

Personally I support the choice CCP made to fix the immediate problem. To simply repeal that would be counterproductive to say the least.

I think if some of the would be pirate/griefer corps could stop for a minute and make some truly constructive ideas to allow both to co-exist without completely segregating them from each other. But most of the pirates do nothing but critique CCP and bash non pvp players. This is an unconstructive approach.

The situation we find ourselves in has been built by pirates and griefers. Now they are all up and down the boards screaming, not quite realizing they are responsible for it.

There are plenty of oppurtunities out there for all professions. I am sure through the use of tools available and some smarts much loot can be jacked and many pods destroyed.

Take care.


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 21:38:00 - [86]
 

<< My example of a good robotics haul was just that. It is something that is not the norm but rather a potential. In fact higher potentials exist and will exist when blackmarket trading goes live as you suggest with drugs etc.. Those people I imagine will have to go through 0.0 to do those great runs. >>

I've hauled it all and through all conditions. I was never robbed, even when Concord was broken and there was no response to attacks anywhere. I took basic precautions with less equipment and still turned an easy profit. So when I say inter and intra-empire trading is too easy without the pirates, I'm not guessing at it.

<< Pirates may not make the most money over time but can do quite well and still have the biggest potential. Which mirrors RL fairly well. Many criminals live in squalor and often risk going to jail for 15 years for 40 dollars in a register.

I don't think pirates in this game need to use a fence either to move the stolen loot.

TBH I think making 99% of empire space off limits was probably a bit drastic. However a route through all empire regions has to exist where a player has the choice not to PvP if he so wishes. Then maybe they could remove some of the guns.
>>

See, I started this thread based on CCP's actions. They implemented multiple changes, all of which affected piracy, without stopping to analyze how any single change affected things. The sentry guns + the ammo range modifications + the reduced ammo capacity + the tracking modification all affect survival in an ambush situation. The sentry guns just make the ambush impossible. So based on CCP throwing all of them in at the same time, with no word from them whatsoever, what are people to assume but that it's all intentional and they want to make piracy impossible?

<< Personally I support the choice CCP made to fix the immediate problem. To simply repeal that would be counterproductive to say the least.

I think if some of the would be pirate/griefer corps could stop for a minute and make some truly constructive ideas to allow both to co-exist without completely segregating them from each other. But most of the pirates do nothing but critique CCP and bash non pvp players. This is an unconstructive approach.
>>

Did they change supply/demand in 0.0 space to counterbalance? No. Did they add more stations out in 0.0 space where the people banished from Empire Space could at least make a viable attempt at survival? No. Did they add player made stations to where those people could attempt to establish a base? No. They outlawed piracy, with no balance attempt and no realistic perspective on piracy in 0.0 space. So look to them for the source of these posts. They smacked people that paid them in the face under pressure from people, who for the most part never saw a m0o or a Setec or a Crepiscule. And asking them to be patient, to be understanding and everything else while being attacked from all directions, ingame and outside of it, would stretch the patience of Ghandi on a bad day.

<< The situation we find ourselves in has been built by pirates and griefers. Now they are all up and down the boards screaming, not quite realizing they are responsible for it. >>

No, they're not responsible for it. They played the game within the rules provided (for the most part, to head off the accusations of exploitation). They played the game as it was designed. The people responsible for the situation are:
1) CCP for overreacting to complaints from people who did not encounter a pirate behind every gate or had NEVER encountered a pirate at all.
2) People who quailed so much at the thought of someone getting shot in a PvP game they jumped in with both lungs screaming for justice and overexaggerated the situation.

m0o didn't just kill n00bs out in their first n00b ship. They killed everyone. But to hear others tell it, they flew into Hulm and massacred everyone in a reaper for weeks on end. They didn't even affect 1% of the playerbase on a daily basis. How do you justify drastic changes for less than 1% of your playerbase?

<< There are plenty of oppurtunities out there for all professions. I am sure through the use of tools available and some smarts much loot can be jacked and many pods destroyed.

Take care.
>>

If the best among them are telling you the situation sucks hindtit right now, why don't you believe the real experts on piracy? Or do you honestly believe Lord Zap, j0rt, Setec, Crepiscule, myself and others are the juvenile idiots that people insist we are? I'm not even a pirate and I know there's scant out there for them.

Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
Posted - 2003.07.08 22:23:00 - [87]
 

"Or do you honestly believe Lord Zap, j0rt, Setec, Crepiscule, myself and others are the juvenile idiots that people insist we are?"

Ding Ding Ding..... We have a winner!

If you actually have been in beta then you know that everything in the last pat was always entended. It had always been in the game but had not been turned on yet.

I was in a kens pizza once and actually heard a kid ask as he pointed to a sign on the wall "Excuse me mam, what's that no smoking sign mean?"

Relitivly speaking, your posts have proved that guy a Genius. Can you change you name to Wile E. Coyote?

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 22:31:00 - [88]
 

<< "Or do you honestly believe Lord Zap, j0rt, Setec, Crepiscule, myself and others are the juvenile idiots that people insist we are?"

Ding Ding Ding..... We have a winner!

If you actually have been in beta then you know that everything in the last pat was always entended. It had always been in the game but had not been turned on yet.

I was in a kens pizza once and actually heard a kid ask as he pointed to a sign on the wall "Excuse me mam, what's that no smoking sign mean?"

Relitivly speaking, your posts have proved that guy a Genius. Can you change you name to Wile E. Coyote?
>>

And that's why you had to have CCP save you. Because idiots were beating the tar out of you.

You can believe whatever you want Athren. Personally, your flaming can't hurt me for a simple reason:

I don't care about you.

As for the beta comment, I participated in beta from end of phase 5 and on. I never saw a sentry gun at a stargate. I doubt others did either as this whole argument would have taken place then instead of now.

Edited by: Jash Illian on 08/07/2003 22:33:09

Rixeh
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.08 22:31:00 - [89]
 

So when are the sentry guns for asteroid belts coming? Next patch?

For a PVP game, eve sure doesn't cut it anymore. Carebears scream "MWAAAAGGGHH QUIT GRIEFING US, YOU'RE IMPOSING YOUR PLAYSTYLE ON US. DEVS EITHER STOP IT OR I QUIT". Somehow that's acceptable, but on the flipside what are the PVPers supposed to do now? Take up mining?

We dont play to mine or hit the Autopilot button.

Faisal Khan
Minmatar
Red Corsairs..
Posted - 2003.07.08 22:54:00 - [90]
 


Athren,

"If you actually have been in beta then you know that everything in the last pat was always entended. "

So, let me get this straight, you were in beta and you are not a pirate yet?...... why?

"It had always been in the game but had not been turned on yet."

LOL, yeah I've always been in the game too, and I must admit I'm finding it hard to be turned on. But I really wish they'd flick that switch that said 'TAXES WORK' or something else equally fundamental than make such game destroying changes.

Where exactly is the risk in trading now? Why not set your destinations on a timer, flick autopilot and rack up another 10 million. With the new highways I'm sure you can turn over more than ever, risk free! and all while you are out to lunch.

If this is so exciting, why is it I get a mountain of applications from MY VICTIMS!

'Faisal, I'm bored.. .. thanks for the excitement! ... Please can I join, if I mine another rock I'll go crazy.. ...I love this game, but I really want to fight other people... ...Do you guys have fun? I want to have fun...'

I used to laugh, but I don't anymore. I actually think its quite sad really.

But to be true, I honestly don't give a hoot what you lot think of me. I like that actually. That's how its supposed to be, I'm a badguy.

This is a game, and some of you folks take it too damn seriously and it kills the enjoyment. You think that by us being an 'obstacle' to your 'goal' somehow makes us cheats or griefers or other such nonsense.

Okay, we now return you to the regular scheduled programming..









Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only