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Moph
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 10:42:00 - [31]
 

Well listen to this:

Deploy some mines in a belt, or anywhere.
Then leave the place.
Now imagine I did many times like this.

And situations goes like this.
I was just docking, while someone got himself on my mine. I almost got torn apart by station sentry guns... far far far away from the place of incident. That's pretty trippy.

Cachorro Louco
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.07 14:33:00 - [32]
 

I got to agree about the sentry guns being a bit overboard. Especialy if you accidently web a gate and get killed for the hostile act.

There needs to be a risk factor for traders making very profitable runs. But there still needs to be a balance. Pirates should not be able to blockade for days on end. A few hours is fine.

Also you pirates need to not go overboard on the blockade thing. I know better then to run into you all but some others are just to stupid or new or stuborn to not go around. I know I will be flamed by some for saying this but pirates need to reign in their bloodlust and call it quits after a few hours.

A few pirates ruined it for the majority of you guys. Don't be placing all the blame on the socalled Carebears of Eve

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.07 14:43:00 - [33]
 

Real easy way to get rid of pirates blockading for days on end, do what the Placid Alliance did.

Zerg rush em with everything you got.

We're pirated, we are here to take your money and cargo, not to stay and fight.

Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
Posted - 2003.07.07 14:59:00 - [34]
 

Jash try actually reading what you posted, try reading this part:

[The most powerful characters of various professions, merchants, miners, pirates, bounty hunters etc. will all be able to maximize their profits in the uncontrolled regions where no laws apply, provided they are able to hold their own against other players who might profit from their deaths.]


In all you research what was defined as Uncontrolled space?

Was 1.0 ever defined as uncontroled, No.

Was 0.5 ever defined as uncontroled No, more dangerious that 1.0 but never uncontroled.

Was 0.1 ever defined as uncontroled? Never, it was more dangerous then 0.5 but never ever listed as uncontroled.

As you know that means 0.0 system are they only place that have ever been listed as uncontroled space.

So by your own research you have verified that: "The most powerful characters of various professions, merchants, miners, pirates, bounty hunters etc." should only opperate freely in 0.0 space.

You did the research, just because you don't like the facts does not mean that it's wrong.

And if you hated the gate with guns in concord space, your really going to hate the next few patches.

and for you that think trade runs are profitable, try actually doing some NPC trade runs. The best you will get is 21 isk a unit profit. Thas less than 50k and hour. You can make more killing NPC pirates and selling the drops. (yes PC trade runs can be profitable if you buy iso for 30 and sell it for 64)

Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 07/07/2003 15:02:49

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.07 15:18:00 - [35]
 

Athren, the problem with this debate is people just like you, on both sides. Those who don't want to compromise. You are representative of the uber carebears, who want complete safety and a "Superior Being" watching your every move holding your hand when you stumble.

Likewise, m0o represented the other end of the spectrum, rampant murder and mayhem anywhere you can go.

If CCP listens to either of these camps, it will make the game for the otherside unplayable, or near close to it. There is a compromise, and we are a long way from reaching it in this current build.

Ronyo Dae'Loki
4S Corporation
Posted - 2003.07.07 15:35:00 - [36]
 

So, where's the love for my idea?

I thought it sounded pretty reasonable.

Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
Posted - 2003.07.07 15:50:00 - [37]
 

"Athren, the problem with this debate is people just like you, on both sides. Those who don't want to compromise. You are representative of the uber carebears, who want complete safety and a "Superior Being" watching your every move holding your hand when you stumble."

First off, I am always in F6 and peroit as well as the rest of the syndicate region. Ask those of your own corp (that have fought me) if they would consider me a carebear.

Second, you mistake my explanation of the facts as an opinon, they are not.

If you tell a person thats learning to drive:
Ok if you come to a stop light and its red you stop and wait till it turns green then you can go.

In telling this are you stating an opinion? No you simply stating the way it is.

The problem is that people seem to want to say:
"Well if the lights red and there are not cops around then I should be able to go."

Theres the problem, the way things are intended to work does not fit how they want to live and play so they try and justify their actions.

If you ever played CS, Tribes (1/2) Starsiege, D2, RTW or any other FPS/MOG then you have probly fought beside or against me. I love battle, the diffrince between me and the whiners? I play by the rules. I stop at the stop lights and wait till the turn green before they go. I don't use an AWP on servers that it's frowned apon. When playing a T, I don't shoot the hostages or my team. I dont use area affect weapons when team damage is on.


See the diffrence is I am a real gamer, I accept responcibility for my actions.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.07 16:12:00 - [38]
 

<< Jash try actually reading what you posted, try reading this part:

[The most powerful characters of various professions, merchants, miners, pirates, bounty hunters etc. will all be able to maximize their profits in the uncontrolled regions where no laws apply, provided they are able to hold their own against other players who might profit from their deaths.]


In all you research what was defined as Uncontrolled space?

Was 1.0 ever defined as uncontroled, No.

Was 0.5 ever defined as uncontroled No, more dangerious that 1.0 but never uncontroled.

Was 0.1 ever defined as uncontroled? Never, it was more dangerous then 0.5 but never ever listed as uncontroled.
>>

Athren, I can see you'll never agree under any circumstances that the security level system is now completely useless and not representative of anything other than the wishes of people like yourself to be completely safe. That was never in the design plans. If it were in the design plans there would be no need for a security rating system.

<< and for you that think trade runs are profitable, try actually doing some NPC trade runs. The best you will get is 21 isk a unit profit. Thas less than 50k and hour. You can make more killing NPC pirates and selling the drops. (yes PC trade runs can be profitable if you buy iso for 30 and sell it for 64) >>

Obviously, it's you that have not done any trade routes. I choose not to run trade routes but that does not mean I'm totally ignorant of them either. If I wanted to, I could hop into an industrial right now and start running a short trade route with a 50 isk per item profit margin. NPC trade route. With plenty of supply and demand.

That I found simply glancing at the market. More people have repeatedly stated the ability to profit in millions of isk per hour inside Empire Space with no risk whatsoever.

Now I may not be the most powerful Pirate Hunter in the game. But I'm 16 jumps from Empire Space atm, fighting 4-5 missile equipped pirates simultaneous. Inside of an hour I might cover 100k. I've already racked up way past that in repair bills on my cruiser. So I think it's time for you to put your precious industrial on the line.

Ronyo Dae'Loki
4S Corporation
Posted - 2003.07.07 16:32:00 - [39]
 

"Now I may not be the most powerful Pirate Hunter in the game. But I'm 16 jumps from Empire Space atm, fighting 4-5 missile equipped pirates simultaneous. Inside of an hour I might cover 100k. I've already racked up way past that in repair bills on my cruiser. So I think it's time for you to put your precious industrial on the line."

Wait a moment. You're fighting them solo, And you're not using repair modules instead of paying for repairs? If you were fighting them with another person, you wouldn't need to make expensive repairs, or if you want to fight them solo, you should bring along armor and hull repairers so you don't spend all your money on repairs.

You might want to rethink how you're doing things.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.07 17:28:00 - [40]
 

<< Wait a moment. You're fighting them solo, And you're not using repair modules instead of paying for repairs? If you were fighting them with another person, you wouldn't need to make expensive repairs, or if you want to fight them solo, you should bring along armor and hull repairers so you don't spend all your money on repairs.

You might want to rethink how you're doing things.
>>

1) I do use repair modules. I'm giving you the cost of repairs if I weren't.

2) It only takes 1 person to run trade in Empire space. So telling me to get a partner isn't valid.

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2003.07.07 19:13:00 - [41]
 

"The best you will get is 21 isk a unit profit. Thas less than 50k and hour. You can make more killing NPC pirates and selling the drops. (yes PC trade runs can be profitable if you buy iso for 30 and sell it for 64)"

Why would you post, Athren, when it's clear that either you're a complete idiot or you don't play EVE?

I make 3M isk an hour on trade routes regularly. Easily, with no risk whatsoever. It's quite trivial to do.

Orikva Kardon
Amarr
Posted - 2003.07.07 20:11:00 - [42]
 

Oops long post. Sorry.

I agree with all the others who think the sentry guns are a bit much. There have been plenty of good suggestions.

I think the "deputized" suggestion mentioned above (sorry forgot by whom) is a great idea, and I had one that was similar, but didn't think about tying it to security rating. I'm going to combine a few ideas (and tie it to faction instead):

I would like to see NPC factions request help.
-npc cops request help from pc "good guys" with high faction standings
-npc pirates in low sec space ( <= 0.4) request help from pc pirates (i.e. people that have high faction standing w/ pirate corps).

Notice I'm saying NPC faction, *not* security rating. In my perfect Eve, there would be no game logic based off of security rating. It would just be a visible indicator by other players so that I can judge how often a player kills other players.

All other decisions for NPC behavior should be based off of your faction:

If I go and blow up a minmatar NPC/PC ship, my standing with the minmatar empire should go down, standing with Concord should go down, but standing with the amarr empire should not change (or maybe even go up).

I could choose to be an Amarrian "Reclaimer" and prey only on minmatar pilots -- my life in minmatar space would be very sketchy, and concord probably wouldn't like me either, but the amarr authorities should ignore me (why should they care if I blow up a bunch of slaves, right?). I should be able to dock at stations in Amarr space, but not in Minmatar space. One exception: If I blow up a Minmatar pilot in Amarr high-security space I'm violating law in Amarr jurisdiction. The Amarr security forces would still come to "reinstate order", and my faction standing with Amarr would be lowered *because I broke the law in their jurisdiction*.

Now, if I'm a multi-national trader, and don't ever harm anyone, no empire force should attack me and the authorities should come to my aid when I'm attacked (in systems with high sec. levels).

Isn't this a far more reasonable way to implement the faction systems/npc behavior? It encourages roleplay, and allows player pirates access to high security space, provided they aren't killing everyone in sight, *and don't kill anyone in the region they have good faction with*. As story events occur the faction hits/bonuses can be tweaked depending on the relationships' between governments.

Note: this would probably require that Concord's presence be lessened a bit. With the last patch they are everywhere. Reduce Condord's presence, and increase the individual empires' presence to maintain order.

ShadowStrike
Shadow Tech Industries
Posted - 2003.07.07 20:23:00 - [43]
 

Hey not to be a party pooper or anything... but please realize that no matter how nice your idea is... CCP does not care. I learned this after writing exhausting amount of reviews and suggestions. Its that sad facts that really makes this game kind of stink. CCP will do what ever they want, with out reguard to what we think. Thats the way its been, and thats the way it will be with them.


Vala Dae'Tarien
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 20:29:00 - [44]
 

They DO care about what people think when they have reasonable, well thought out suggestions.

From seeing the rants and accusations about 'carebears' your posts are, I don't think I'd pay much attention to you either.

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 20:33:00 - [45]
 

Fist I'll start by saying that I'm not a fan of the new sentry guns change. I think the actual implementation of them could have been handled a bit more tactfully, but now that there up, the question remains "Where do we go from here?"

The way I see it you can either put it back to the way things were or create reasons for traders to wander out into non empire space other than for minerals.

I think they should put it back the way it was at least temporarily, until they can work out all the mechanics to how the economy will operate with pirates basically banished to Non Empire space.

Maarek hit the nail on head on an earlier post. The real solution was very simple. If you don't want gate campers then it is up to the players to solve the problem.

People could have hired out to Merc corps to wage a war on pirate corps, or hired escorts to protect ships, but they didn't or if they did, they didn't do it very often.

Who we really need to hear from is CCP. I think we're all entitled to hear from them, what they see as the future for pirating.

I don't believe they wanted to alienate pirates or low sec players in general, but that seems to be what is happening.

Orikva Kardon
Amarr
Posted - 2003.07.07 20:45:00 - [46]
 

ShadowStrike, I understand where you're coming from but CCP is in the business of caring because they want to be an MMOG developer. I think they are just having problems in communicating with their user base. It is getting better, if you look at the posts by Pann concerning the last patch etc. They are trying to provide us with more information.

Perhaps a more regular message which included user suggestions under consideration would be helpful in conveying their concern.

Edited by: Orikva Kardon on 07/07/2003 20:46:00

Guardian334
Posted - 2003.07.07 21:33:00 - [47]
 

"Dear CCP,

I used to be a pirate. I went to areas of high civilian traffic and killed innocents and noobs. I slaughtered many ships in single shots, killing them and days or weeks of work in a heartbeat. Many players quit because these things are not fun. I was having a blast roleplaying a pirate, because killing folks left and right is just awesome as far as I'm concerned.

Now you've made the game so I can only attack those who have ventured into the unchecked wilds. Which is where you banished me. It's not fair; I'm a pirate, that should mean I can go anywhere I want. Pirates live outside the law. I'm supposed to slaughter innocents; it's my job to ruin people's fun!

After all, aren't there just hundreds of thousands of players willing to pay money each month, spend hours playing each week, so they can lose their ships and gear in mere seconds? You should fix your marketing so all these targets ... er 'players', come in, then put the game back so I can start shooting again.

Until you do, me and my other friend aren't going to play anymore. You will feel our mighty PK dollars no more; we're going to go to one of those games where you can kill people without risk, er ..., I mean by using tactics. When that other PK game is making millions you'll feel sorry you ran me and my other friend off.

Love,

A_PK_ER

ps: I also think it's really unfair the cops shoot at pirates now. Pirates are people too; shouldn't the cops really just protect you against aliens and stuff? They shouldn't interfere with my game; how can I slaughter noobs if I have to deal with the government all the time?

slipshot
Posted - 2003.07.07 21:54:00 - [48]
 

wow what a constructive reply that was.

Why is it always black and white with people.

Many non pirate players (myself included) want a balance. Having guns at EVERY gate bar 0.0 is not balanced. It removes the risk of trade runs and therefore, in my opinion, some of the fun of the game.

Likewise having no guns at gates, or very weak guns, was not working.

I have p[layed the game from the start as a non pking player. I will kill people later in the game, if they warrent it, but the fact is that it is now easy to avoid the blockades, and before you could have a good go at running them, and, if that didnt take your fancy, dont use trade routes that use them.
Now all we have is big ships moving through space trading in 100% trade routes. Great. What ahppened to the team play/escort idea that was the orginall focus of the game -:(

im just upset. Not asking for pirates to have free roam but there has to be a balance :9


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.07 22:19:00 - [49]
 

<< Who we really need to hear from is CCP. I think we're all entitled to hear from them, what they see as the future for pirating.

I don't believe they wanted to alienate pirates or low sec players in general, but that seems to be what is happening.
>>

That is the whole point of this thread. The original one was locked for trolling, but that's another issue.

CCP does need to respond on this issue. And not a "We're looking into it" but a credible answer. Traders know that trade is imbalanced in their favor. Pirates know that piracy is nerfed unfairly against them. People that cannot see past the fact that this is a GAME, know that pirates are getting shafted. It shows in their glee.

But Eve is a GAME in which players choosing to be pirates have a right at a credible chance of being pirates. Right now it's not very credible.

Xane
Minmatar
Republic Security Services
Posted - 2003.07.07 22:30:00 - [50]
 

Maarek hit the nail on head on an earlier post. The real solution was very simple. If you don't want gate campers then it is up to the players to solve the problem.

People could have hired out to Merc corps to wage a war on pirate corps, or hired escorts to protect ships, but they didn't or if they did, they didn't do it very often.


It is unlikely that n00b players would be able, or could afford, to hire out escorts or pirate hunters.

The sentry gun changes only really affect pirates picking on n00bs in starter NPC corporations. Pirates can still attack members of player corporations without response from the sentry guns, and those corporations may well respond in force.

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.07 22:35:00 - [51]
 

Reposted in own thread.

Edited by: Maarek Steele on 07/07/2003 23:33:43

Kalir
Posted - 2003.07.07 22:42:00 - [52]
 

There are a couple of points that the people on the carebear side of these debates seem to fail to understand.

1. CCP built PKing and pirating into the game. Read the back of the box. Look at the modules that exist - e.g. passive targetting, etc. The game was advertised as a "hard core PK" game. People in pirate corps took this and ran with it. CCP then pulled the rug out from under them. This is absolutely no different than if they said, well we think empire space is too safe. Everything is now 0.0 in the next patch with no warning. How much screaming would the "carebears" be doing then? Though you may disagree with the pirates' "morals," the fact is they were playing they game as it was built. Their subscription fees entitle them to just as much consideration from CCP as yours do. You can say, "but they were exploiting!!! blah blah." That may have been true for a few isolated incidents, but I certainly never ran into any of those cases - all of my dealings with pirates were "straight up." And a few isolated incidents should have been handled as such, not by changing the structure of the entire game world.

2. Life without risk is boring! Now when I want to go from point A to point B in empire space I just hit autopilot and go afk. How is that a game? Before when I was lugging eq in my newbie ship off to pick up a new cruiser I was glued to the screen to be ready to deal with pirates, or arranged for an escort, etc. Now, it is just autopilot and go watch TV.

3. The profession of trader is now rediculously risk free. The only thing that stops everyone from crushing the economy by non stop trading is that it is so boring. Autopilot isn't much of a game.

Some suggestions:

Get rid of the sentry guns below 0.5, and replace them with a scalable police response over time - dependent on security level, as others have suggested.

Put some hard NPC pirates randomly back at some gates in low sec space. The main mechanism of game play shouldn't be autopilot.

Have a module with some sort of long range sensor capability, such that you could scan a gate when not at it. It should cost a ton to mount and suck a ton of cap to use, but it would let a trader warp into a system and check-out what's up, if they wanted to play it that way.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:01:00 - [53]
 

<< It is unlikely that n00b players would be able, or could afford, to hire out escorts or pirate hunters.

The sentry gun changes only really affect pirates picking on n00bs in starter NPC corporations. Pirates can still attack members of player corporations without response from the sentry guns, and those corporations may well respond in force.
>>

Xane, those sentry guns fire according to security rating. Get near one with a low security rating and they will vaporize you. They are not protecting any single group. They are protecting all groups

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:02:00 - [54]
 

The sentry gun don't just effect noob hunters. I swear you see more new players getting themselves killed by hitting the wrong button than pirates ever did.

It's been awhile since I turned off this message, but you used to get a display message saying that "Concord won't help you" when you entered .4 sec space I believe. This should be plenty of warning for new players.

Not to sound like I'm starting a Maarek fan club but I believe what he proposed to make the most sense. This would provide a way to have more content introduced through factions as well.

Xane
Minmatar
Republic Security Services
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:23:00 - [55]
 

Xane, those sentry guns fire according to security rating. Get near one with a low security rating and they will vaporize you.

Even in 0.4 systems ?

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:32:00 - [56]
 

Yes, if you attack someone near a gate or station then the guns fire. Even in .4 sec space. In .5 and above they do it automacticly.

Edited by: Crepiscule on 07/07/2003 23:32:58

Xane
Minmatar
Republic Security Services
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:33:00 - [57]
 

Yes, if you attack someone near a gate or station then the guns fire. Even in .4 sec space.

Anyone ? How about player corporation members ?

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:56:00 - [58]
 

Yes, even other corporations. I believe Molly has had experience with this.

Maarek Steele
Gallente
GalTech Heavy Industries
Posted - 2003.07.07 23:57:00 - [59]
 

yup, you take .352 for attacking player corps in a 0.0 sector. Molly ran into this in The SYndicate.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.08 00:05:00 - [60]
 

<< Anyone ? How about player corporation members ?

x a n e
>>

Apparently so, Xane. People have reported being ripped apart for things as small as their missile colliding with a gang member's missile.


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