open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked The Sentry Gun Debate
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.07 02:34:00 - [1]
 

Athren Soulsteal and others saying the sentry guns were always intended:

I checked the knowledgebase and the FAq. The only thing in either that mention sentry guns is this:

How will newbies be protected from players with malicious intent?
Newbies will have the option of staying in zones with high security levels, heavily patrolled by police ships and sentry guns. The zones with lower security levels will be more lucrative in terms of gains and opportunities, giving players the incentive to venture into more unsecure zones as they become stronger. When and if they decide to take such a risk is up to each player. The most powerful characters of various professions, merchants, miners, pirates, bounty hunters etc. will all be able to maximize their profits in the uncontrolled regions where no laws apply, provided they are able to hold their own against other players who might profit from their deaths.


I'd like to point out the part "...in zones with high security levels, heavily patrolled by police ships and sentry guns."

Now, I don't call Arnstur with a .1 Security Level "high". I don't call Helgatild with a .2 Security Level "high". I don't call any of the solarsystems I've passed through with .4 and below Security Levels "high". So I say the change was never intended and inspired by recent events.

I further maintain that given the change was never in the original plans and inspired by recent events, CCP has overlooked the consequences of adding sentry guns to .4 and below space. Trade profit rises dramatically as risk from player pirates disappear. Player pirates, restricted to 0.0 space which is under-developed, find very little to do. This is what happens when you change a plan that has existed for years over the events that took place in a month.

Setec is raiding miners and stealing their mining lasers for goodness sake. That's not what people envision when they see the word Pirate. Nor is it what they envision when viewing the trailer Found Here. I'll also point out one of the last lines in that trailer...

"And I promise that nobody will get hurt in the process. Oh well... 3 outta 4 ain't bad"

So someone at CCP anticipated losses to the pirates as well.

Edited by: Jash Illian on 07/07/2003 02:34:59

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 02:35:00 - [2]
 

"Now, I don't call Arnstur with a .1 Security Level "high". I don't call Helgatild with a .2 Security Level "high". I don't call any of the solarsystems I've passed through with .4 and below Security Levels "high"

Feel free to consider ME high.

Edited by: Hippey on 07/07/2003 02:35:35

KrapYl
Minmatar
Posted - 2003.07.07 02:43:00 - [3]
 

the faq stated 100.000 concurrent connections one... thats never going to happen... i think we might have to accept that inner space is for - what the most common word of choice on these boards - carebears...

Arcain
Posted - 2003.07.07 03:17:00 - [4]
 

ccp are new at this...they overdo most things. The highway jumpgates would have been enough to solve the mara/passari issue. And you can hardly blame players for taking advantage of obviously flawed mapdesign.

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2003.07.07 03:17:00 - [5]
 

Every day the sentry guns remain in place is a day a well thought-out design falls prey to a knee-jerk reaction.

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.07 03:22:00 - [6]
 

Hippey, will you have my love child?

Lord Zap
Caldari
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2003.07.07 03:36:00 - [7]
 

Jash I really admire your tenacity and agree with 99% of your posts but dont you get the feeling that your p***ing in the wind?

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2003.07.07 03:47:00 - [8]
 

Take the guns out of >.4 space, it's stupid. Thx.

Setec
Caldari
The Graduates
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:06:00 - [9]
 

Well put.

The sentry guns in 0.1-0.3 were, in my opinion, one of the very few poor decisions that CCP has made. I have supported them on many things that most disliked in the past (most of which directly nerfed me, but I'm one to recognize when something I'm doing is overpowered) but in this case it's an overreaction that throws the risk vs reward of commody trading totally out of whack and takes most of the tactics out of positioning as a player pirate.

Tristan
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:09:00 - [10]
 

sorry to go totaly off topic here, but how to i make text linkable on these boards. i can make links clickable with [ url] [/url ]

but for some reason normal BB code doesnt work for linking text. eg...

[url=http://www.mylinkhere.com]my text here[/url]

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:22:00 - [11]
 

hmm I dunno [url = "http://www.eve-online.com"]link test[/url]

Cymoril
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:35:00 - [12]
 

Quote:

Newbies will have the option of staying in zones with high security levels, heavily patrolled by police ships and sentry guns.



All that says is there are sentry guns in high security zones. It doesn't say there are no sentry guns in lower security zones.

If you read the text exactly as it is written, there is nothing misleading about it. It is your own (mis)interpretation that has caused the confusion.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:39:00 - [13]
 

"Hippey, will you have my love child?"

Sure, but what do you want me to do with it?

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:49:00 - [14]
 

We can teach it to do trade runs in empire space.

Demangel
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:50:00 - [15]
 

What I would have done if I was some bigwig at CCP:

Sentry guns:
At All stations irregardless of sec rating.
At all Jump gates in .4 or higher system or around any gate LEADING to a .4 or higher gate.
guns should fire on anyone with a .5 or lower Sec rating unless the system is .2 or lower.

Stations:
Deny access based on Security rating.
The higher the systems Sec rating the higher the players rating must be in order to dock.
Anyone at .5 or lower security rating should be outlawed from Empire space and should not be allowed to dock at Empire stations in systems with a Sec rating of .2 or higher.

Police:
Based on security rating police should be more or less visible.

In high sec, you shoot at someone they warp in within 5 seconds or so...
At low sec, They might take a minute or two.

However once the police have shown up, they spawn in better and better ships, and more and more of them at irregular intervals to eventually push the bad guys out of the system.

The whole point:

A player pirate, or group should be allowed access to low security systems, and should be able to make raids into meduium security.

But endless blockades like what M0o and others did should NOT be possible.

For example M0o should be capable of blockaiding a .4 system for a few hours at most before they would be driven from the system by Concord and DED.

They would NOT be capable of staying there for long however, and at some point concord SHOULD spawn in more and more and better and better stuff to push them out.

In this way Pirates Can STILL both make a living and have fun attacking players in Empire space but at a more realistic/reduced rate.

Non agressive players will run the risks of facing both NPC and player pirates in any system that is mid to low sec, the lower the Sec the higher the risk. However Higher sec systems (.6+) will be for the most part Care bear paradises (just as CCP said they would be).

Again Player pirates SHOULD be capable of venturing into even .8 systems, but the cops will quickly chase them out.

Essentialy the response times would change (as orriginaly intended).

1.0: near instant Concord attack, and the cops would be like bloodhounds, IE they would follow you endlessly. They begin with mid level ships and 2-4 cops at a time and get harder with each wave.

.6-.9: Varying levels of response time, and varying length of time between waves. In a .6 system for example, It might take the police 20 seconds to spawn in initially in response to a hostile act. Then after the last cop is destroyed it might be up to one minute for the next wave. This next wave must be stronger. Each wave after it must be stronger as well.

.3-.5: again with varying levels of response time, but in this case a .4 system might take up to a minute for the initial spawn in of the police, and up to 3 minutes or more between waves, however the strengths of the waves will be identicle to even, .9 systems.

.2-.3: Police only respond to agressive acitons and take up to 3 minutes for the initial wave, and 10 minutes between waves, the Concord ships again start at moderate difficulty and build until the strongest forces possible are in the field.(no sentry guns around gates, and those around stations only respond to agressive acts on other players.)Stations restrict access in .3 or higher systems.

0.0-0.1: Police have a 50/50 chance of ever showing up and do not have waves. stations do not restrict access to anyone, and sentry guns only fire on agressive actions against other players within range of a station, and NEVER hang around gates.

True 0.0 systems are completely and utterly lawless.

concord/DED composition:

Initial spawn: 2-4 frigates of moderate or higher strength with one low end cruiser.

By the or third - fifth wave: 4-6 frigates with 2-3 high end cruisers.

By the 10th Wave DED is alerted and: 8+ frigates: 3-5 Cruisers, and 1-2 battleships arrive, every wave after this wave when DED shows up results in greater numbers of DED ships and faster waves until the Player pirates have been evicted from the system.

All waves should be somewhat randomized to make the system less predictable: "Ok this is the 9th wave, after we kill this bunch we better run!" I would instead prefer to see "Hmm this is the 7th wave, DED might show up at any time now! We better pack it in!"

this system is dynamic enough to allow players some freedom, but not enough to make player pirates the unstopable force they had become.

It would mean players would have real risks in low sec systems from player pirates, and moderate risks from player pirates in mid sec systems as well.

Pirates coiuld base in low sec empire space (to sell loot ETC, but could still occasionaly be attacked by Concord (50/50 chance for every hostile act them make). Player pirates could also make daily raids into empire space. How deep into empire space they can go entirely depends on the

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:50:00 - [16]
 

<< All that says is there are sentry guns in high security zones. It doesn't say there are no sentry guns in lower security zones.

If you read the text exactly as it is written, there is nothing misleading about it. It is your own (mis)interpretation that has caused the confusion.
>>

And the box says "or the most nefarious pirate ever to terrorize the galaxy". Empire space is in the galaxy. If you read the text exactly as it was written...bah you get the point, don't you?

But in case you don't, that's not a very strong argument. I would say you're the person putting their own interpretation on things as it specifically states that "Newbies will have the option of staying in zones with high security levels". With a scale that runs between 1.0 and 0.0 in increments of .1, would you refer to .3 on that scale as high or low?

Edited by: Jash Illian on 07/07/2003 04:53:07

Demangel
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:50:00 - [17]
 

*Continued*

Pirates coiuld base in low sec empire space (to sell loot ETC, but could still occasionaly be attacked by Concord (50/50 chance for every hostile act them make). Player pirates could also make daily raids into empire space. How deep into empire space they can go entirely depends on the Pirate groups capabilities. How long they can stay there is always finite, but the stronger they are, the longer they can stay without taking serious losses.

final suggestion:

All players with a security rating of 5.0 or higher with a good faction rating toward concord and at least one concord agent, should be deputized.

When player pirates begin raids into empire space Concord should give them on the spot volunteer missions to help push them out of the higher sec systems.

For example M0o raids a .4 system. Deputized players get an alert that Pirates have entered high sec space. They can then dock at ANY station and learn the whereabouts (system only, not exact location), of the Player pirates in question.

Only these players are entitled to the player pirates bounties, and Concord should in fact occasionaly add to the Bounty to make sure it's worth while.

In this way Pirates will also get what they claim they want most of all, good PVP action. I for one would try to become a "deputy", and I know lots of others would as well as it would sure beat the current global bounty system which is more like an assasination hot list than anything.

Anyone like my ideas? I think I'll post them on the path review forum maybe.

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:51:00 - [18]
 

An interesting note: I've personally stopped hunting NPC pirates, and, indeed, venturing out into 0.0 space for pretty much, well, anything....

Why? Well, in my moa with shield hardeners and a rather impressive projectile setup I can no longer solo a steady stream of 30-40k bounty cruisers like I once could.

However, I can certainly "solo" a 3-4M isk/hour trade route. This is far more money than I can make killing the NPC pirates and selling their stuff to other players, and it does not carry with it the difficulty of finding buyers and etc.

This is made even worse because of the numerous bugs(warp active forever, capacitor to 0 on 1 module use, etc) that can cause even the most careful and well prepared pilot to be guaranteed to lose his ship no matter what action he takes in combat.. but this risk too is totally absent from trade routes.

When the only risk left in the game is going into 0.0 space to find bistot, I think there is something seriously wrong.

I see absolutely no reason for the efficient economical player to do anything but trade routes at the moment.

Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 07/07/2003 04:54:03

Cymoril
Posted - 2003.07.07 04:58:00 - [19]
 

Quote:

But in case you don't, that's not a very strong argument.



There is nothing to argue.

Damon Vile
Amarr
AUS Corporation
CORE.
Posted - 2003.07.07 05:04:00 - [20]
 

I would have rather seen a random count down for cops to show up. The lower the sec rating the longer they take to show up. In a 0.1 system it could/should take days to arive. In a 0.4 maybe hours.

But when they do show up they come in force and clear everyone with a low sec rating out. None of this scaring ppl off crap. They shoot to kill.

This would let pirates come into low sec space and stur up trouble. Ppl would have to wait them out or find another way around.

This would give risk to both sides. The gates can still be camped and the pirates never know when they're going to have to run, and you'd never get the weeks of gate camping shutting down parts of empire space.

D'ou
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.07 05:06:00 - [21]
 

Completely agree with Demangel, though I think the police should take a little bit longer than that. If every gate is safe except 0.0 space, why the hell have sec rated systems? Just have "safe" and "unsafe" ones.

Of course, if we can successfully take out sentry guns with them taking considerable time to be replaced (days to weeks), the current system could be workable. But last I heard, sentry guns respawn rather quickly, not to mention taking a whole lotta damage before they blow up. I'll have to test that out.

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.07 05:16:00 - [22]
 

yeah security status is a joke right now, it's 1.0 and 0.0. The sentry guns do need to take massive damage to kill and they respawn way before you have a chance to kill the other sentry gun.

Ronyo Dae'Loki
4S Corporation
Posted - 2003.07.07 05:53:00 - [23]
 

IMO, the guns should stay.

HOWEVER... their behaviour should change. A sentry gun in 0.1-0.3 should be there for the sole purpose of protecting the gate, and, unless someone from/with high standing to the corp/faction the guns are with is under attack, shouldn't do a thing. This will also encourage people to do more with agents: "Hey, if I get good faction rating with X, then the sentry guns in 0.1-0.3 will protect me."
Which brings me to my next point: with enough firepower, you should be able to disable a gate for an hour. This would also make pirate/terrorist blockades quite a bit more interesting: people with MWD's couldn't jump, but the pirates couldn't jump either if a fleet came to smash them. It'd be risky, but alot more profitable.

Ronyo Dae'Loki
4S Corporation
Posted - 2003.07.07 05:54:00 - [24]
 

Note that above I meant "the sentry guns in X area in 0.1-0.3 will protect me", NOT all sentry guns around the galaxy.

Murdoc
Minmatar
Crazy Frogs
Posted - 2003.07.07 06:01:00 - [25]
 

I don't have anything to add to this realy but I would like to say good job to everyone keeping this clean and mostly friendly.
This is what we need more of, constructive criticism. these type of post are far more productive for CCP than the flames or rants that many seem to be posting these days.

Ruulex DeMors
Caldari
HYDR4
Posted - 2003.07.07 06:27:00 - [26]
 

Make the game more faction based instead of Sec Rating being law.

If the sentry guns at .4-.1 must stay (which I think they shouldn't), make them "hackable" by either players or NPC factions. If a successful hack is achieved then the gun comes under control of that faction or player. The NPC faction hacked guns will fire on anyone with a less than -.5 faction standing towards them (Sansha, Blood and Guristas REALLY hate me). Players will be able to directly control the guns for a limited amount of time.

Once hacked the guns will send a signal to the original controling empire informing them of the hack. Then the Empire can either send out a mission for players to regain control of the guns for them or they can send NPC police to take care of it.

But IMO the sentry guns in .1-.4 space are too extreme and will eventually kill EVE's gameplay.

Edited by: Ruulex DeMors on 07/07/2003 06:29:02

Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2003.07.07 06:34:00 - [27]
 

I really like your idea Ronyo Dae'Loki. It would give more incentives to befriending certain agents in certain systems etc... That idea has a lot of potensial.

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.07.07 09:26:00 - [28]
 

I agree, gate guns in the lowest non-0.0 systems seem to me to be like a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of petitions and really shouldn't be there.

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2003.07.07 10:29:00 - [29]
 

I especially think it's funny how CONCORD sentry guns and NPC pirates co-exist at gates.

That's just a riot.

slipshot
Posted - 2003.07.07 10:40:00 - [30]
 

I make a habit of only trying to post positive comments to threads and have so far been mostly successfyl...

but in this case i find it hard - Why oh why have they put sentry guns in systems with a sec rating of less that 0.5 :(

I am very upset about this, and feel it is seroiously reducing the fun of the game

CCP please reconsider on this point, and do it quickly, as each day it remains it is seriously umbalanced towards safe trade meaning ppl are getting LOTS of money for little risk :(

Hope they have the guts to correct this action, as i have actually like most of the other things that have patched to date (especially the more tatical use of weapons and ammo...0


Pages: [1] 2 3 4

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only