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Bleakheart
Caldari
Posted - 2005.04.04 20:51:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: capt
Edited by: capt on 04/04/2005 11:15:52
Originally by: mahhy

I don't care about your earning. I care about earnings in 0.0 being massively higher than they are in Empire. The way it should be. The way its not right now.



Hmmm I think you are really misinformed on this one. Last time I checked you could still make hideously more isk/day mining for zyd or mega in 0.0 space than you could ever earn doing (lvl4) missions in empire.Exclamation

Claiming otherwise is just plain shenanigans......ugh



Its not the amount, its the difference.

Basically, look at it this way:

Since Exodus, 0.0 has had no increase in ISK/hour making potential that I'm aware of. Same NPCs, same bounties, same ore, etc. No big changes in ISK/hour potential.

Empire on the other hand, specifically safe 0.5-1.0 has had a huge increase in relatively easy and safe ISK/hour potential, in the form of level 4 missions and minerals from drone compounds, etc.

The actual maximum isk/hour you can make in either is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if 0.0 is greater, or empire is great. The problem is the difference is smaller. That removes incentive to even try to go to 0.0. Why would anyone want to go live in 0.0 when the new ISK making potential of empire space is so much closer to (and some believe actually exceeds) 0.0 potential?

Its a central theme to Eve that generally you need to risk more to reap more rewards. Its more or less impossible to argue that level 4 missions in 1.0 space are more dangerous than NPC hunting/mining in 0.0 because you simply cannot be attacked by players in 1.0 if you choose not to be, whereas in 0.0 you can be.

On top of all that theres a LOT of anecdotal evidence to support the idea of a shrinking gap between Empire and 0.0 ISK/hour potential, namely the HUGE influx of players into Empire and the huge increase in mission running thats pretty easily visible in the main mission systems.

How can people not see that thats a problem that needs to be "fixed" somehow? CCP don't want to nerf level 4 missions, so they need to do some serious work with 0.0.


Good grief man weren't you part of this discussion last month and the month before that?? Give it a rest already, there is nothing at all you or I or anybody here can do about it by "discussing" this any further. If you don't like it, quit playing for a while and come back later. It's a whole new game every time you do. If on the other hand you place your trust in the devs, who by now have received a fair supply of feedback to go on, then tough it out, but shut up about it already.

Threat
Minmatar
Fat Lip Inc.
5th Rule of Kintaro Alliance
Posted - 2005.04.04 21:43:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Threat on 04/04/2005 22:37:39

When they have had enough of our banter I'm sure they will lock the thread and give us another stickey telling us to STFU already. I for one was glad to see this on page 2 most of the weekend and would like the topic to die.

As for the subject of 0.0 agents, what whould those people not in alliances do? I'm sure the local pirates or alliance "protectors" will prohibit access to those agents or make it so difficult that people just wont show up.

Lastly its not just agent missions that are bringing people to out of 0.0, its war. People are doing their ganking in Yulai, or are getting fed up with the whole war system (myself included) and are leaving alliances, and by default 0.0.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.05 06:52:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
If you want 0.0 space to be settled, you cant have people run about bang you over the head just for the pure fun over it, then moan there is no one to shoot at later when people find out they rather want to stay out of 0.0.


Why not? The very idea behind 0.0 space is that the players need to provide their own protection. Why is that a problem? The miners or whoever can learn to PvP, or they can hire people to fight for them, or they can recruit fighters into their corp, or they can create/join an alliance and contribute to that alliance by providing cheap mins, ships, whatever.

People that moan about the ability to be shot at in 0.0 are the lazy ones that don't want to put any effort into the game... and no effort should mean no ISK. But it doesn't, at least it doesn't right now.

Btw the rewards of 0.0 have almost never been mostly harvested by the PvP crowd. Most of the pvp crowd are not big into mining or npc'ng, least the crowds I know. I tend to do some npc'ng if I need some ISK but thats about it. Most of the harvesting in 0.0 is done by miners and NPC'ers.

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
There is a big friggin picture to behold here, just moan about how rewarding level 4 agents isn't leading anywhere, just let the devs work with the game and go with it. EVE is a living game going through changes and who evolve over time. You can't expect things stay the same forever, then it just stagnate and dies.


Um thanks, I've been trying to point out the big picture to so many empire hugging mission runners that are only concerned about their wallet, its sad.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.05 06:54:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Threat
As for the subject of 0.0 agents, what whould those people not in alliances do? I'm sure the local pirates or alliance "protectors" will prohibit access to those agents or make it so difficult that people just wont show up.


Use empire based agents instead? Or join an alliance?

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.04.05 09:58:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: mahhy
Why not? The very idea behind 0.0 space is that the players need to provide their own protection. Why is that a problem? The miners or whoever can learn to PvP, or they can hire people to fight for them, or they can recruit fighters into their corp, or they can create/join an alliance and contribute to that alliance by providing cheap mins, ships, whatever.



Why not? Not everyone is interested in the PVP aspect of the game. As for players who need to provide their own protection. Look at already existing groupings and alliances in the game? A few small corps's banding together try make a living in 0.0 will sooner rather than later be pushed back to empire by pvp hungry players who walk right over them. And you cant just always join an existing alliance, they might not want you and if you get close to their turf they end up kill you. Its a lose lose situation.

Players who worked hard for a few months building up is afraid of lose what they gained, thats why the exodus doesn't happen. That and together with 0.0 is a freaking small space. If players could build their own self sustanined stations which wouldnt show up on the map or scan's, 0.0 would be settled rather quick. The POS we got today to play with is no way near such a feature.

Originally by: mahhy

People that moan about the ability to be shot at in 0.0 are the lazy ones that don't want to put any effort into the game... and no effort should mean no ISK. But it doesn't, at least it doesn't right now.



Lazy ones? No effort? Gank squads camping gates what you call that? If not lazy? Humble miners in Empire lazy? They spend countless hours mine low grade ore is that lazy? Its not the ability to get shot at in 0.0 that upset people, its the ability to die in 5 sec without have any idea what happen that worries many.

As for the whole issue about level 4 missions being riskfree, well its been etablished long time ago it isn't. Its still a fight between the empire dwellers and a the 0.0 crowd. And as for the pvp'ers you say yourself under that pvp'ers hardly harvest the rewards of 0.0 space so why they moan about people make it so good in empire when they dont work to harvest the rewards 0.0 can give them. It just show their focus is to get more people to 0.0 to add to their score board not about their earning capabilities.

Originally by: mahhy

Btw the rewards of 0.0 have almost never been mostly harvested by the PvP crowd. Most of the pvp crowd are not big into mining or npc'ng, least the crowds I know. I tend to do some npc'ng if I need some ISK but thats about it. Most of the harvesting in 0.0 is done by miners and NPC'ers.



Originally by: mahhy

Um thanks, I've been trying to point out the big picture to so many empire hugging mission runners that are only concerned about their wallet, its sad.


Yeah and without all these empire hugging people you wouldnt have any game to play. So what is best? A game to play or no EVE at all? The 0.0 crowd is a minority in this game.

To make a living in 0.0 you need a group of like minded people, who will work for their common goal, or whatever objective they might have. They cant afford to have people join their group that run of to do their own things all over space, because when the day comes they really need to pull together people are no where to be seen. I think this is a problem many corps's and alliances suffer from today, but they dont want to slice away the dead weight as less numbers will make them look weaker.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.05 11:13:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Why not? Not everyone is interested in the PVP aspect of the game.


Perhaps thats too bad? Theres a chance that CCP actually want Eve to be a PvP game, not a PVE game. They've actually said that it is a PvP game, but they don't seem to be providing the tools to facilitate that.

If CCP really do think that Eve is a PVP game, then whats it matter if someones interested in it or not? CCP decides what the game is and if someone doesn't like that they can go elsewhere and play a different game. Whats wrong with that? Why play a game you don't like?

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
If players could build their own self sustanined stations which wouldnt show up on the map or scan's, 0.0 would be settled rather quick. The POS we got today to play with is no way near such a feature.


Well thats all part of the whole "CCP has failed to provide the incentive to settle 0.0".

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Lazy ones? No effort? Gank squads camping gates what you call that? If not lazy? Humble miners in Empire lazy? They spend countless hours mine low grade ore is that lazy? Its not the ability to get shot at in 0.0 that upset people, its the ability to die in 5 sec without have any idea what happen that worries many.


Never said anything about gate gankers or miners specifically.

And mining is not an effort. Its just a bunch of pre-planned repetitive actions. I appreciate what miners do completely, but lets not call it something it isn't. Without them I'd probably have to mine all my minerals myself etc.

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
As for the whole issue about level 4 missions being riskfree, well its been etablished long time ago it isn't. Its still a fight between the empire dwellers and a the 0.0 crowd.


Risk is in player interaction. If level 4 missions we're risky, you'd see less people doing them. If player interaction wasn't risky you'd see more players making runs into 0.0 to NPC or miner. Its self explanatory.

Players are risky. NPCs are not.

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
And as for the pvp'ers you say yourself under that pvp'ers hardly harvest the rewards of 0.0 space so why they moan about people make it so good in empire when they dont work to harvest the rewards 0.0 can give them.


What? Theres no logic in that arguement. PVP'rs tend not to "harvest" anything in 0.0, we allow non-pvpers to join our ranks and do it for us. In return the theory is that the pvpers fight off the people who end up attacking us. The non-pvpers provide material support to the pvpers in return for their protection. (in theory of course)

What does that have to do with people in Empire?

As I stated before, I'm not concerned about exactly how much ISK can be made in empire running level 4 missions, I'm concerned that a vital part of the attraction of 0.0 is gone now because level 4 missions mean you can make as much (or close to, or more, whatever) as you can in 0.0.

Thats got nothing to do with whether I or any other peron actually makes money in 0.0 or not.

Sherkaner


Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.04.05 20:28:00 - [157]
 

Oookay ...

Originally by: capt
I think Sherkaner is on a holiday and other mods are neglecting the mission forum because this and other remarks (from other people) in other posts could sure use some *snipping*.


No, I'm not on holiday ugh
I just didn't moderate this thread until now because
- a person can only read so much posts about level 4 missions before brain meltdown
- the thread didn't look like much trolling at the first glance, and I really thought I can leave you guys alone for a bit without total mayhem breaking out Wink

Looks like it doesn't work without moderating, though Neutral

The important thing first: this thread will not be locked. I will watch it more closely from now on though, and be more strict with moderation and official warnings.

A few guidelines for people posting in this thread (and elsewhere in the forums):

- If you disagree with someone, feel free to reply, but keep it civil and constructive. Always attack the other's arguments, not the person.

- If you think this thread is boring and everything important has been said, don't post. In your case, giving the thread a free bump and feeding the trolls by replying is the worst thing you can do.

- If you think something should be moderated, "snipped" or locked, don't post it in the forums, mail to mods@ccpgames.com (yes, that means you, capt Razz).
(Or, even better, if you're so worried about forum moderation, join the crew and do it yourself Very Happy).

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.06 02:27:00 - [158]
 



Quote:
Risk is in player interaction. If level 4 missions we're risky, you'd see less people doing them. If player interaction wasn't risky you'd see more players making runs into 0.0 to NPC or miner. Its self explanatory.

Players are risky. NPCs are not.


No. I've seen my share of ships killed by NPCs and those of others. Even if you know the routine of dealing with that mission, a mistake on your part can still cost you your ships. A lot of people seem to think that CCP does not have statistic and data collection tools and you can just say things in the forum to pass as a fact. CCP has indicated that a lot of ships are lost via NPCs in the EVE universe collectively, especially from missions. Let CCP define what is risky. They are the ones who have the data collection tools.

Even before there were L4 missions, one can take a look at the map for ship deaths, and see that empire space is a lot brighter when it comes to deaths than 0.0 space. While there are a few bright clusters in 0.0, places like Yulai are always bright as gank spots. The new war system has nerfed the dangers in empire space, but empire wars does add danger even to empire mission runners. Attacking enemy mission runners is often a common tactic. In the role playing wars for example, it is relatively easy to assemble a fleet and head for the mission spots, then gank these mission runners. So to say that empire mission runners is immune from PvP is wrong. So long you are in an alliance and corporation at war or can be declared upon, there is this nasty risk. If you want to join an NPC corp, then you won't have this PvP risk but that is offset that you are not likely to be part of a gang to help out on tougher L4 missions.

Also, how can a player armed with the local channel, safespots, insta bookmarks and the all powerful log on and log off be at risk? It is quite possible that CCP wanted a much tougher presence, then putting it in L4 missions, in order to increase ship death all over the EVE collective universe.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.06 09:13:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Slithereen
No. I've seen my share of ships killed by NPCs and those of others.


Sorry Slith, I'll just never agree that an NPC is truely risky. Predictability to me means its not risky. Just because people lose ships to them doesn't make them risky.

Think of it this way: once you've seen an NPC spawn once or twice, you know you can take it or not. After the second or third successful go at it, your heart isn't beating faster, theres no adrenaline rush left. Those things never go away when your facing a player, because a player is risky. You never KNOW whether your capable of winning or not. Thats risk.

Originally by: Slithereen
Even before there were L4 missions, one can take a look at the map for ship deaths, and see that empire space is a lot brighter when it comes to deaths than 0.0 space. While there are a few bright clusters in 0.0, places like Yulai are always bright as gank spots. The new war system has nerfed the dangers in empire space, but empire wars does add danger even to empire mission runners. Attacking enemy mission runners is often a common tactic.


1.) Empire has always had more people in it, thats just gotten worse since Exodus.
2.) War risk in Empire is something you chose to accept. In 0.0 it is not. In Empire you CAN leave your corp and be free of wars. Can't do that in 0.0.
3.) The new war system didn't nerf war dangers in Empire. Made declaring war perhaps a bit more difficult and annoying, but if you actually mamanged to get the war declared the dangers were the same as before.
4.) For alliances with lots of people in Empire the new war system actually increased risk for them.

Originally by: Slithereen
Also, how can a player armed with the local channel, safespots, insta bookmarks and the all powerful log on and log off be at risk? It is quite possible that CCP wanted a much tougher presence, then putting it in L4 missions, in order to increase ship death all over the EVE collective universe.



Same tools are available in Empire as 0.0, local, ss, instas, etc. They don't change the difference in risk between 0.0 and empire since they're available in both areas.

Heironymus
Gallente
Command and Conquer the outer limits
Posted - 2005.04.06 09:30:00 - [160]
 

1st I would like to say
Not every player that PAYS to play eve wants to run below 0.5 and do missions
Why u ask

Simple Pirates

So not only would you be setting up a ship for the mission but you would have to set up for the pirates who have nothing better to do but sit the gates....

As far as lvl 4 compared to 0.0 well is simple

lvl 4 can be done in empire and don't have to belong to a Alliance

Now what you seem to be suggest is they make lvl 4 for them only in Alliances because only alliance corps players hang in 0.4 to 0.0.....

Maybe lvl 4 to easy but as you state he avoids deadspace and other certain missions...

But allso remember he getting good advice I would hope from his corp mates to beable to know what to train to do lvl 4 solo....

I would love to see him do solo though at 1 month old...

We all pay to play EVE .....
Some enjoy the mining,pvp,camping gates,being a pirate,mission junkie,building and on and on

But that what is good about eve

Problem with EVE is to many players whineing about what others aloud to do

I am not in Alliance and that is my choice

Which only means 0.0 mainly off limits or would not do so many lvl 4

So if you would like your Alliance to open up there 0.0 space to n00bs players who do lvl 4 or just love to mine then hey we will gladly come down to 0.0

But that will never happen...

So instead getting ****ed,mad at players who liuve in empire has you guys/girls call carebears let us just enjoy the game we allso pay for in ways eve is doing to make fun for us all not just for you guys in 0.0

Hey if a player can do lvl 4 in a week so be it go for it

But lets see that 1 month old player hang in 0.0 if he wasn't in your corp or Alliance ....

Not saying Alliances are bad or pirateing is bad or pvp or mining

If it makes them happy hell best spent money each month they will ever spend

I say players need to stop complaining about everything in EVE because when you do usally a nerf happens something gets taking away something gets harder

And guess what more players leave eve and ask anyone who has played other online games what happens when new players don;t keep coming or new players don;t stay or old players leave

After awhile game not making a profit and it shut down....

So lets enjoy eve the way you happy

Nothing wrong with fun in a game if wanted complaining every day would go out my door :)

Heironymus
Gallente
Command and Conquer the outer limits
Posted - 2005.04.06 09:33:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: TDA Shadow
Come on, there r ppl who dont wanna do PvP. Let them do their lvl4 missions in raven. Does it do anything to you? NO.


Actually, it does, because we can't compete with the isk income - it pushes the cost of pretty much everything out of our reach.


And mineing in 0.0 hurts empire price because we can't mine zyd,meg,morph yes we now get in lvl 4 drone missions but not nearly as much as you can get from mining...

So see you guys hurt us on value and setting price so high on minerials so evens out

Give us the ore we will gladly give you the lvl 4 missions :)

Heironymus
Gallente
Command and Conquer the outer limits
Posted - 2005.04.06 09:43:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Hyey

I have since switched to full 0.0 NPC hunting because quite frankly looking for that rare officer spawn is more fun than having it given to you. IN a full 1 and a half weeks

70mil isk in bounties
200mil isk in loot (named launcher blah blah.)

... thats it... THATS IT

I made ALOT more in 3 days than in 1 week. nuff said



I am taking you did not do many lvl 4 missions

We DO NOT get faction loot very often hell you get frig loot in bs if you even get loot from a BS

I have done my ffair share lvl 4 and I have only got 2 ships that gave faction loot but were the crap loot

You guys in 0.0 do get the best loot and set the price it sells for

Hell some loot comes out of 0.0 sells for billions yes billions

And look at lvl 4 so what we can do in empire what we should only be aloud do lvl 3 in empire and alliances which control 3/4 game anyways should control who is aloud to do lvl 4 missions because it would be in your space...

Allinaces control all 0.0 and pirates control 0.4 to 0.0 mainly

What is it you guys say when a carebear comes into 0.0 and gets blown up

You should have known better

So instead whineing and complaining you hagve your part of the game we have ours I am sure 95% players in empire would love have chances the alliance and pirate corps have in turn meaning get to hunt,get awsome faction loot know can travel in 0.0 mainly safe like we do in empire

As a brag was going on earlier this week about CA on come back 220 bs flying in old CA space claiming there terrioty back

Well we allso need our fun in empire and so much crying over everything in eve getting old

Sometimes feel like I am back in school not paying to play a game

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.06 11:14:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Heironymus
And look at lvl 4 so what we can do in empire what we should only be aloud do lvl 3 in empire and alliances which control 3/4 game anyways should control who is aloud to do lvl 4 missions because it would be in your space...

Allinaces control all 0.0 and pirates control 0.4 to 0.0 mainly


Who ever said anything like that? Did anyone say they want to move all level 4 content to 0.0/Alliance space? Thats not even possible btw, unless you simply get rid of all level 4s for any faction not present in 0.0... which is most of the factions.

I'd like to see people having to risk something to earn a ton of ISK. CCP wants to leave level 4 missions more or less the way they are (ISK-wise).

So now 0.0 space needs to be "improved". Make it worthwhile to risk living in 0.0 again. Hopefully even make it more worthwhile than it was before level 4 missions. Make it possible for people to actually LIVE there, without any trips to empire being NEEDED.

Heironymus
Gallente
Command and Conquer the outer limits
Posted - 2005.04.06 17:53:00 - [164]
 

So let me get this right

You guys want 0.0 for the Alliances and pirates

You want lvl 4 more down there

You want more stations....They gave you POS for the Alliances mainly because if I am correct someone wioll correct me ifd I am wrong

POS can not be built in 0.5 and up

So there is your stations - agents

I think this thread could go on forever do to will always be someone not likeing others making isk or someone wanting more

0.0 as most players who been here awhile understand it for the Allkiances and pirates and empire for the players wishing to just have fun not worrying about getting blown up unless at war....

You have to take good with bad

You guys get faction loot and meg,zyd and get to blow up anyone u wish

And empire we can fly around safe do our missions our mining and hope to get billions of isk that was once only there for the 0.0 players

Now that empire seeing the isk 0.0 players not happy

Well I say let everyone enjoy there game

Hell I hate being podded or having pod killed but if I goto 0.0 it happens whos fault is it mine

We need something that adds some excitement in empire besides mining..

Maybe 0.0 does need more lvl 4 agents but this thread is about players complaining about lvl 4 being to easy

So enjoy your game and what you pay to play let us do same

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 04:02:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Slithereen
No. I've seen my share of ships killed by NPCs and those of others.


Sorry Slith, I'll just never agree that an NPC is truely risky. Predictability to me means its not risky. Just because people lose ships to them doesn't make them risky.



That is contradictory. If people lose ships, then it is risky.

My guess is that you have not played enough spawns where as many as ten interceptors would come to web and scramble you, and as many as four battleships with a horde of cruisers would come down on you and tear your ship apart.

From a 0.0 perspective, you can warp in at 60km, MWD out even further and start "kiting" away at the spawn. You probably never did a deadspace mission once, where the gate lands you in the middle of a spawn described above where everything is about only 20km from you.

You probably never seen nutty things like Spider drones which move insanely fast or something with 77.5 resistances against everything like the Supreme Drone Parasite or celebrity rats that take half your shields down with a single torpedo volley. Or Fleet Stabbers moving like inties with battleship autocannon damage at 30km away.

Sure the RAven with six torps do make it less risky---only if you know what to do already---or otherwise it will get cooked. Even then a slight mistake, or a slight variation of the mission can cost you the ship; missions are hot fixed from the server, which means they can be altered by the Devs during downtime without informing you. And for what it is worth, L4 missions are indeed risky if you want to beat it solo with turrets. You failed to notice that one reason why Alliance people are doing L4 missions---it's not just for the reward, but the fact that the L4 spawns are more exciting and more andrenaline rushing than 0.0 belt spawns. And then again, they also want that faction ship.

Quote:

Think of it this way: once you've seen an NPC spawn once or twice, you know you can take it or not. After the second or third successful go at it, your heart isn't beating faster, theres no adrenaline rush left. Those things never go away when your facing a player, because a player is risky. You never KNOW whether your capable of winning or not. Thats risk.



Only if you're playing PvP solo or in even numbers---which most people don't by the way. They just instaBM and insta-safespot out of there.

PVP is only risky when you do it solo or in even numbers. It is not risky when you join and stack up in fleets to gank innocent victims passing through gates.

Don't talk about PvP risk when your idea of PvP means vastly outnumbering the target, as most players in the game do. Talk about PvP risk if you have the gall (or the stupidity) to face numbers equal to better than your own.

If you are being hunted down, then you have PvP risk. But I have seen mission runners being hunted down and losing ships in empire, including your former DS corpmates. The new war system did screw that partly, but did not eliminate it. Now the bugs in the war system is being corrected, and there will be consensual free wars, there is going to be more risk in empire. A common tactic in the Amarr-Minmatar roleplaying war is for example, for the Amarrians to send fleets and gank people at the gate in Rens, and the Minnies likewise at Amarr mission centers.

***

Fixing agent and LP rewards in the nxt patch isn't going to fix anything at all. The LPs are non transferable which means heaven and hell may come but the player is going to stick with that agent running hundreds of missions until he earns that faction ship. No amount of coddling will make them move.

Not unless LPs are transferable within the same empire.

That faction ship-LP rewards thing creates "glues" that will forcibly stick a player to an agent. If it's just L4 missions alone without aspiring to earn that Navy battleship, players would be more "mobile" and migratory with their lifestyles, occupation and choice of ecosystem habitat. They would be more flexible with their time and professions instead of whoring the same agent in Rens day by day until he gets that Fleet Tempest.

the best way to bring people back into 0.0 space is indeed to boost L4 pirate agents with new, interesting and challenging missions, as well as matching to better rewards, e.g. that Sansha or Gurista faction battleship. People are already bored of 0.0 spawns and the daily grind of farming and chaining them so they are looking for the next challenge and the next level of rewards, which L4 missions and faction ships give to them; nerfing L4 agents in empire will only make a lot of people quit the game since LPs are non transferable either. So boost the L4 missions in 0.0 and lure players back.


Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 04:17:00 - [166]
 



So how do you get the faction ship mission ***** out to deep space again?

First like I said, make LPs transferable.

Second, agents at 0.4 to 0.1 are not going to change anything for the alliances. It is still Empire space where stations and gates are still protected by sentries. It only gives more victims to the true PK'ers with a below 0.5 status, not to people who want to engage PvP but wants to keep their sec status---which most PvPers in the game are.

You need to put outpost stations near the pirate nations sovereign space, then put Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar agents in them, and then transfer your previously earned LP points to these agents. If these outposts are conquerable stations, so much the better, since they will become a hive of activity.

One problem why many people do not take up pirate agents is that the faction rating will ultimately make them kill on sight with the empires. And everyone needs to go to empire once in a while. And then, they may not ambition for that pirate faction battleship either, but a Navy Apoc or Raven. alliance people hunt the pirate ships for their food, so their pirate faction rating is deep in the negative. They would have to start from L1 and few only wants to do that. But with an empire agent, they can start at the higher L2s to L3s at least, and get to L4 in little time.

So why not just bring the Empire agents to them, not them to the empires? Bring empire agents to my proposed 0.0 outposts for so that Alliance people can do their empire missions there and get the faction ship they want and don't have to start from L1 or get negative faction empire ratings.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.08 11:47:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Slithereen
My guess is that you have not played enough spawns where as many as ten interceptors would come to web and scramble you, and as many as four battleships with a horde of cruisers would come down on you and tear your ship apart.


I've assisted in missions, done complexes up to 7/10 or 8/10s and killed damn big belt spawns of Commanders and Officers mate. I've taken on more than 4 NPC BS at once, solo. Pretty much my only source of income is NPC killing, usually complexes or belts. To even suggest that I don't know anything about NPCs is extremely amusing Laughing

Originally by: Slithereen
Only if you're playing PvP solo or in even numbers---which most people don't by the way. They just instaBM and insta-safespot out of there.

PVP is only risky when you do it solo or in even numbers. It is not risky when you join and stack up in fleets to gank innocent victims passing through gates.

Don't talk about PvP risk when your idea of PvP means vastly outnumbering the target, as most players in the game do. Talk about PvP risk if you have the gall (or the stupidity) to face numbers equal to better than your own.


I fight even odds or outnumbered all the time. Did it just last night, outnumbered by a decent amount. We won too, massively. We've fought larger ships in larger numbers outnumbered. We've fought against assloads more EW. We've fought in smaller ships against larger ships. I've gone solo, in various different ships and various different situations. I can't even remember the last time my "side" outnumbered anyone.

Assuming you know what my style of PvP is, or MASS's is just silly Slith, you don't know anything about me or my corp.

Originally by: Slithereen
If you are being hunted down, then you have PvP risk. But I have seen mission runners being hunted down and losing ships in empire, including your former DS corpmates.


PvP in Empire is a choice. Its that simple. All other things being equal (SS, instas etc) you have a choice whether to be protected by the game mechanics or not. You do not have that choice in 0.0.

My former DS corpmates choose to be at war, and those who decided they didn't like it left the corp. I could provide specific examples for crying out loud. Thanks for proving my point Very Happy

Originally by: Slithereen
You failed to notice that one reason why Alliance people are doing L4 missions---it's not just for the reward, but the fact that the L4 spawns are more exciting and more andrenaline rushing than 0.0 belt spawns.


As I said, its exciting the first couple times around, but I've never heard anyone say its still exciting after the 100th repetition. Perhaps some people do think that, but I've yet to meet one is all.

Originally by: Slithereen
the best way to bring people back into 0.0 space


Lots and lots of people have made suggestions about how to do this. First CCP need to make taking the risk of going to 0.0 more attractive by providing a greater income potential as compared to Empire. Then they need to provide the tools to really build something worthwhile. Things like factory and labs in POS aren't just nice to have, they are an absolute must if 0.0 is to be truely settled. Benefits for claiming systems have to be provided beyond having a colored dot on the map. Special rewards only available in 0.0 seem to be coming with pirate implants, so thats one small step.

Keep in mind I'm not even speaking of making 0.0 more attractive to me, I already live there, travel there, fight there, etc. I make enough ISK to get by and I have fun shooting my enemies with my corpmates.

Making 0.0 more attractive means making it more attractive to the people who don't want to PvP. Make the risks worthwhile for them. Of course some people will NEVER come near 0.0, but if the rewards are right, lots of them will.

Originally by: Slithereen
nerfing L4 agents in empire


Thats what I'd like to see happen, but as I've already said: CCP aren't going to do it, not in any meaningful way. So instead of beating a dead horse I suggest they improve 0.0 opportunities, and do it fast.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:05:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 08/04/2005 12:05:30
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Slithereen
My guess is that you have not played enough spawns where as many as ten interceptors would come to web and scramble you, and as many as four battleships with a horde of cruisers would come down on you and tear your ship apart.


I've assisted in missions, done complexes up to 7/10 or 8/10s and killed damn big belt spawns of Commanders and Officers mate. I've taken on more than 4 NPC BS at once, solo. Pretty much my only source of income is NPC killing, usually complexes or belts. To even suggest that I don't know anything about NPCs is extremely amusing Laughing


You only seem to have played with Sansha NPCs, mate, which is less than one fourth of the NPC universe.

Have you ever fought faction navies to begin with? Amarr? Khanid? Gallente? Caldari? Minmatar? Ammatar? Mercenaries? Mordu? Gurista? Serpentis? Specific celebrity rats?

When you are dealing with L4 missions solo, you are not just dealing something with just four or more NPC battleships, but dozens of cruisers and warp scrambling, webbing interceptors---sometimes working only 20km from you.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:10:00 - [169]
 


Quote:
As I said, its exciting the first couple times around, but I've never heard anyone say its still exciting after the 100th repetition. Perhaps some people do think that, but I've yet to meet one is all.


It stops getting exciting after a while, but people still do it, not really because of the income, but because of the LPs which can only remain with the agent, and not until they get that faction battleship.


mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:11:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Slithereen

You only seem to have played with Sansha NPCs, mate, which is less than one fourth of the NPC universe.

Have you ever fought faction navies to begin with? Amarr? Khanid? Gallente? Caldari? Minmatar? Ammatar? Mercenaries? Mordu? Gurista? Serpentis? Specific celebrity rats?

When you are dealing with L4 missions solo, you are not just dealing something with just four or more NPC battleships, but dozens of cruisers and warp scrambling, webbing interceptors---sometimes working only 20km from you.


Again, you know nothing about me. Sanshas only, lol. Rolling Eyes

I'll leave off arguing with you here. If you want to pretend that missions rats are somehow special or more smart or less predictable, I'm not going to stop you.

Predictability means safety. Thats the point. Take it or leave it.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:15:00 - [171]
 


Quote:
Lots and lots of people have made suggestions about how to do this. First CCP need to make taking the risk of going to 0.0 more attractive by providing a greater income potential as compared to Empire. Then they need to provide the tools to really build something worthwhile. Things like factory and labs in POS aren't just nice to have, they are an absolute must if 0.0 is to be truely settled. Benefits for claiming systems have to be provided beyond having a colored dot on the map. Special rewards only available in 0.0 seem to be coming with pirate implants, so thats one small step.

Keep in mind I'm not even speaking of making 0.0 more attractive to me, I already live there, travel there, fight there, etc. I make enough ISK to get by and I have fun shooting my enemies with my corpmates.

Making 0.0 more attractive means making it more attractive to the people who don't want to PvP. Make the risks worthwhile for them. Of course some people will NEVER come near 0.0, but if the rewards are right, lots of them will.


Complexes and POS won't do crap.

You need to make more stations and outposts, put empire agents in them, and make LPs transferrable.

It is not the risks that is stopping them, it is leaving all their accumulated work behind.

An empire mission runner runs -9.XX ratings with pirate factions. He is certainly not going to leave empire just to do 0.0 pirate missions, when he can't do the missions in the first place.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:20:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Slithereen

Complexes and POS won't do crap.

You need to make more stations and outposts, put empire agents in them, and make LPs transferrable.

It is not the risks that is stopping them, it is leaving all their accumulated work behind.


Shocked

Slith, even before Exodus was released, 0.0 was much more sparesly populated than Empire. That was before all the agent changes.

Why was that? Its all about risk versus reward. Now that the reward in empire has increased in comparison to 0.0 we have even less people in 0.0 than before.

The game does NOT revolve around agent missions and moving some empire agents into 0.0 will NOT fix the fundamental problem of "not enough reward for the risk of 0.0". It goes way beyond agent missions and a few special ships Shocked

Theres lots of people in this game who do not run agent missions at all, or very very few. Some of them dabble in the market, are dedicated producers or miners etc. Empire agents in 0.0 aren't going to fix squat for those people.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:26:00 - [173]
 


Quote:
PvP in Empire is a choice. Its that simple. All other things being equal (SS, instas etc) you have a choice whether to be protected by the game mechanics or not. You do not have that choice in 0.0.

My former DS corpmates choose to be at war, and those who decided they didn't like it left the corp. I could provide specific examples for crying out loud. Thanks for proving my point Very Happy.


PvP in empire remains a semi-choice. You cannot pick at who declares war at you. Alliance war expands it even more because you never know who you will meet at the gate. And then there are locating agents... "The scum is hiding in xxx system..."

No surprise since the history of EVE, the brightest death spots are in empire.

Much of 0.0 space is actually pretty dim and safe. The real dangers are in the choke spots like PF-346, EC8, or R3.

When you hunt in 0.0, people don't exactly know where you are. But if you hunting mission runners, you certainly know where they are, which gate to wait (like when you're doing a Blockade mission), which station to wait...and do it again and again and again. Looking at local doesn't help in empire, because you have a very long list, and you don't have the time to look at them all.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:32:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Slithereen
No surprise since the history of EVE, the brightest death spots are in empire.


Lets just pretend for a moment that "Exodus" actually happens one day and 0.0 is more or less equally as populated as Empire. Which is what I'd like to see anyhow...

Where would the brightest "death spots" be then?

Originally by: Slithereen
Looking at local doesn't help in empire, because you have a very long list, and you don't have the time to look at them all.


Thats an utter fallacy. I've been in Empire wars, as you yourself pointed out. Wars involving an easy couple hundred enemies. The tools exist to allow you know if local is safe or not.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:36:00 - [175]
 


Quote:


Slith, even before Exodus was released, 0.0 was much more sparesly populated than Empire. That was before all the agent changes.



You don't have enough stations for one thing. But a lot of people I know (I used to go to 0.0 before too) go to 0.0 but do not live there. There is a difference. 0.0 is being visited regularly.

Quote:

Why was that? Its all about risk versus reward. Now that the reward in empire has increased in comparison to 0.0 we have even less people in 0.0 than before.



The only people safe in 0.0 are regional alliance people and "friends" of the alliance. Everyone else is KOS.

Quote:

The game does NOT revolve around agent missions and moving some empire agents into 0.0 will NOT fix the fundamental problem of "not enough reward for the risk of 0.0". It goes way beyond agent missions and a few special ships Shocked



The game has increasingly revolved around missions because of its excessive grind. The introduction of missions probably saved the game by transforming it. A lot of people would have left the game including myself. There is only so much you can do with hunt, mine, and do PvP. The game needs higher goals and more different and varying forms of activity.


Quote:
Theres lots of people in this game who do not run agent missions at all, or very very few. Some of them dabble in the market, are dedicated producers or miners etc. Empire agents in 0.0 aren't going to fix squat for those people.


They are increasingly getting fewer or just alts to mission runners. The traders have bored themselves to death. How many people actually mine now? Look at the prices of minerals in the market. Trit for 4isk?

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:40:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Slithereen
No surprise since the history of EVE, the brightest death spots are in empire.


Lets just pretend for a moment that "Exodus" actually happens one day and 0.0 is more or less equally as populated as Empire. Which is what I'd like to see anyhow...

Where would the brightest "death spots" be then?



Who knows?

Quote:

Thats an utter fallacy. I've been in Empire wars, as you yourself pointed out. Wars involving an easy couple hundred enemies. The tools exist to allow you know if local is safe or not.


Yeah? Have you ever seen the local now at Rens?

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:46:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Slithereen
You don't have enough stations for one thing. But a lot of people I know (I used to go to 0.0 before too) go to 0.0 but do not live there. There is a difference. 0.0 is being visited regularly.


Hey now we're right back to my point about more infrastructure, you know stations and POS. Those things you said "wouldn't do crap" to promote Exodus?

Oh, and as far as I can tell the idea behind "Exodus" would be to promote living in 0.0, not just visiting it occasionally.

Originally by: Slithereen
The game has increasingly revolved around missions because of its excessive grind. The introduction of missions probably saved the game by transforming it. A lot of people would have left the game including myself. There is only so much you can do with hunt, mine, and do PvP. The game needs higher goals and more different and varying forms of activity.


Originally by: Slithereen
They are increasingly getting fewer or just alts to mission runners. The traders have bored themselves to death. How many people actually mine now? Look at the prices of minerals in the market. Trit for 4isk?


So the fact that more and more people are running missions doesn't perhaps say to you that the reward available in missions, versus the risk is a bit out of whack? When according to you basically every other profession in Eve is suffering because of agent missions, they "saved" the game?


Also, you seem to claim theres more to do in missions than PvP combat? How can that even be possible? Missions are a limited number, pre-planned series of steps. Rinse, repeat as many times as you like.

PvP is different every SINGLE time because the people involved change every single time. The locations change every single time. The tactics change every single time.

The idea that you can "more" with missions as compared to PvP seems to be demonstrably false.

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:47:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Slithereen
Yeah? Have you ever seen the local now at Rens?


Fought a war in Yulai and Nonni about 2 weeks ago now. Your point?

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:51:00 - [179]
 


Quote:

PvP is different every SINGLE time because the people involved change every single time. The locations change every single time. The tactics change every single time.

The idea that you can "more" with missions as compared to PvP seems to be demonstrably false.



No one is saying you can do more with PvP than in missions.

But what you're saying that missions have no risk is PLAIN WRONG.

If it can kill your ship, it is a risk.

Slithereen
Amarr
Posted - 2005.04.08 12:57:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Slithereen on 08/04/2005 12:57:42
Quote:
So the fact that more and more people are running missions doesn't perhaps say to you that the reward available in missions, versus the risk is a bit out of whack? When according to you basically every other profession in Eve is suffering because of agent missions, they "saved" the game?



Oh?

EVE is a grind game. PvP does not make money, except for few pirates and mercenaries but you cannot have everyone be a pirate or mercenary otherwise you don't have a food chain. By the way, pirates and mercs have to mine, farm and mission to make their ends meet.

So what grind do you have left? Mining, trading, NPC farming and missioning. Mining is a joke. If mining made more money than any profession, the game would bored itself to death. NPC hunting and chaining is only a step above mining in boredom. Trading is even more boring than mining. So you are left with missions.

Missions can be highly repetitive but that can be corrected by increasing the challenge, raising the randomness and increasing the variety of missions, all of which can be hotfixed into the servers without a patch.
Still a bit boring, but hey, preferable than mining, trading and NPC farming.




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