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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2005.03.29 13:51:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
I don't know about you guys, but even if all the mineral prices doubled I still wouldn't mine - its so boring.


If its boring or not doesnt matter. When the icrease of mineral prices makes it more worth doing than a lot of other things, even level 4 missions for the average player. Its all about risk vs reward and pay pr hour isnt it? Thats been the issue all along from the "anti missions crowd" out there? So when are roids gonna get nerfed because it pays of to much mining? Laughing

S'Daria
Posted - 2005.03.29 13:54:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Tags are found in 0.0 space, the phrase mining is boring is personal not generic for all eve-players, nerf is not about empire missions but about 0.0 missions. Not abot anything else.


So reasons to go into 0.0:

1. Rare tags
2. Officer spawns
3. Faction Loot


I wonder if you can sustain yourself with just those three things in 0.0 - provided of course you don't get podded.

As for the alliance peeps being able to do that I'm sure the hundreds of your buddies who are protecting you while you're NPC'ing don't count...


Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.29 14:10:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: S'Daria
Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Tags are found in 0.0 space, the phrase mining is boring is personal not generic for all eve-players, nerf is not about empire missions but about 0.0 missions. Not abot anything else.


So reasons to go into 0.0:

1. Rare tags
2. Officer spawns
3. Faction Loot


I wonder if you can sustain yourself with just those three things in 0.0 - provided of course you don't get podded.

As for the alliance peeps being able to do that I'm sure the hundreds of your buddies who are protecting you while you're NPC'ing don't count...




First of all, most officer tags can be found in alliance space so the you will not get podded in that space if you are from said alliance. Second of all the minerals in 0.0 are still much better than in empire space so you can go there mining.

Reasons to go into 0.0:
1. Rare tags
2. faction loot
3. Officer spawns
4. High level complexes
5. Minerals (more than you get from drone cans)
6. PvP
7. Alliance vs alliance wars
8. Belt hunting without traveling 60 km to the next gate
9. Doing pirate missions
10. Gate camping.

10 nice reasons to go to 0.0, not to mention the thrill of being insta locked while you travel the last 100 m with your insta jump to a gate.

S'Daria
Posted - 2005.03.29 14:16:00 - [64]
 

PvP is WAY more exciting than roaming around empire mining or doing agent missions - I don't understand why people don't do it.

People are too afraid of getting podded and loosing all those implants I think.

I wonder if implants were 10-15 mil each if that would entice people into 0.0 WITH all the reasons you just gave?

I'll try to say this the last time, but making POS full service will be 90% of the solution.


Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.29 14:23:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: S'Daria

I'll try to say this the last time, but making POS full service will be 90% of the solution.



Lol even in empire not all services are available in any given station.

True making POS (not the one players can put up) have more services but keep the strategic value of it.

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2005.03.29 14:26:00 - [66]
 

Nahh my 2nd account just blows.

I trained him up as a miner/refiner.. barge type guy ect....

The pretty ships he flys are near uselessSmile

And your right, i don't think it's the big claim thats it's all so easy is as it's made out... there's still a hell of a lot of messing around to do on some missions.

All i will say is it pays more than your average belt trip... and in relation to how hellish that can be sometimes, getting there and staying alive ect....

It realy does seem a little unbalanced....

But hey im 100% sure things arn't set in stone in anyway.

Things will change.

Threat
Minmatar
Fat Lip Inc.
5th Rule of Kintaro Alliance
Posted - 2005.03.29 15:31:00 - [67]
 

/me misses the sticky about risk vs reward posts

I've been to 0.0 and NPC farmed belts. 1 jump from a station with every service was a system with 15 or so belts. You regularly got dual enforcer spawns. You almost never had any danger while in space. Frankly in a raven every spawn was easy.

I have to admit that I can make more in a level 4 mission than belt jumping (even including loot). However, there's alot more risk in agent missions. I know I never had to take on 4 battelships + support in 0.0.

The other thing is time. Farming in a belt is easy, kill check cans move on and quit when you want. Missions are very time consuming and frankly I find them alot more stressful. I've spent 6-7 hours farming with no problems, however I can only do 3-4 lev 4 missions in a row before I need a serious break. I know i'm not alone as I have talked to others that feel the same.

I don't do my L4 missions in >0.5, and I really could care less if anyone does. If thats where you want to do them so be it. The mission is just as hard if its in 0.0 or 1.0 (though the ones just outside the station or at a belt or gate in < 0.5 can be dangerous). While some 0.0 areas are dangerous most (if you are in an alliance) have ZERO risk from attack. If you don't have an insta dock bookmarks in ANY security system for you agent's station you are a fool.

Let's all just play the game, let threads like this die (since it will be changing next patch anyways), and have fun.

Stone Blackmouth
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2005.03.29 15:59:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Threat
Let's all just play the game, let threads like this die (since it will be changing next patch anyways), and have fun.
The change in the next patch isn't really that noticable. Granted you'll get less LP in a 1.0 than a 0.0, but really the bounties haven't changed and that's where 90% of mission income comes from - rat bounties.

So if you're saving up for a Faction BS it will take you 25% more missions now if you do it in a 1.0, but if you do it in a 0.4 you'll need 25% less missions - I don't know what the mission rewards are in 0.0 - didn't test it on the test server.


X'Alor
Posted - 2005.03.29 16:08:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: X''Alor on 29/03/2005 16:14:28
Originally by: Typherin laidai
Ok how is this hard... how to complete a lev 4 in a raven

1 : Warp in / Make Bm
2 : Warp out
3 : Warp back in @ stupid range to enemy and spam torps
4 : Keep shouting "I win I win"

How is that hard.... hmm unless of course your mute .. then step 4 could be hard.

other than that all you have to do is tank the initial dmg from whatever agro's you + possibly have to quickly Torp/Cruise spam any pesky Cepters.




Nice, quality comment about the mutes. Shows your true class of person. Slick.

That's all you have to do in any conflict.

And if that's the way you want to play, no wonder you think it's boring.

Personally I like the 15km approach but mmmmmK to each their own.

And how many jumps do most lvl 4 mission runners do to get their missions? At most for kill missions ummmmm ONE.

Gate blocks are not an issue for most lvl 4 missions. Most lvl 4 kill missions happen in agent system. That arguement is moot.

And ultimately when will you guys realize that it's not the SOLO agent runners that are making 100's of millions. It's the ones doing the team effort.

I run missions and collect all loot. it is the same as mining for me. Solo lvl 4's take hours to fully loot and kill everything.

23 million SP and a raven does not secure my completion. I guess it would if you fly it like the candy a$$ way you stated. Personally I like the close and personal approach as it allows you to loot faster, kill faster, complete faster...... Not to mention it allows for much better screenies.Razz

Had one mission last night and my partner wasn't available and I actually had to exicute it as solo as I do. I use my raven to shoot and use the alt to loot. had the 10 stop pirate slaughter. Raven went out with a full load of torps and that wasn't enough to complete. had over 100 cruisers to kill, who knows how many inties and only 2 500k BS. It took me over 4.5 hours to kill everything and gather all loot. Now if i did this completely solo it would have taken me sooooooo many redocks and reloads to have room gather all loot and get the mission done. It would have been over 10 hours completely solo in my raven tank.

as it was 4.5 hours for one the biggest lvl 4 missions with most if not all pertainant skills at lvl 5 and it only yeilded about 11 mill. Solo lvl 4's are not making uber amounts of cash for the time they spend to kill and loot everything.

That same mission with my partner would have taken under an hour. It's the group runners that are making boat loads mmmmm K. trust me.


As that sticky says, if you can't bring something new to this ongoing whine. DON'T

I'm surprised sherkaner has allowed it to get this far.

Sherk, isn't it about time to end yet another whine risk vs reward thread?ugh

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.03.29 17:46:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Akaviri
Edited by: Akaviri on 29/03/2005 11:24:34
One way for CCP to decrease the amount of isk/hour someone can make from lvl 4 missions is to go through with the missle changes. Torps shouldn't be able to hit small ships for 100% damage all the time. I've done lvl 4 missions with a Dominix, Scorpion, Megathron, and Raven. With the Raven I can go through them about twice as fast as with any other ship.

This would also: 1.) Help make cruisers more useful in PvP situations, 2.) Allow the introduction of Tech II missle launchers and ballistic controls.


I don't see how this would help cruisers. I doubt the missile changes will be enough to revitalise them.

What would be a lot better would to bring back the old prices of missiles. Not only would that make a lot more sense RP wise, but it wasn't for nothing that ravens were a lot less popular in both PvE as in PvP when you were literally burning money when you used missiles.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.03.29 17:48:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Boro
Basicaly it boils down to this. This is a non-issue for most players. Those who drag this issue out are lobbying for either of 2 reasons: they're a PK and they want more people to kill in 0.0 and/or they make alot of money on ebay selling rare items and don't want to lose their income.



Actually I think this is a bit narrowminded.

I think most people are complaining because the lvl4 agents are the engine behind the inflation running rampant.

BATT
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.03.29 18:00:00 - [72]
 

No matter what people says in this forum on how easy lvl 4 is ,being a joke or not..

players are still loosing plenty of ships and missions have plenty of room to make mistakes..
and people do make mistakes..

if you find them too easy..just go pvp a little while waiting for lvl 5.

Tobiaz
Spacerats
Posted - 2005.03.29 18:04:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Originally by: Typherin laidai


^^ and on another note. to the idiot that believes you make 100 or so mill from 56hrs of level 4 missions.. ROFL. get a clue ? do you even run missions ?

Meh ugh


First of all I am not an idiot and second of all I do run mission solo in a raven for about 4 days. I speak from my own experiences that I make 2 to 3 mil an hour maybe a bit more when I dont get a silence the informant or a vengeance mission.



Uhmmm

I make 2 to 3 million even with lvl 3 agents in my Raven. I don't pick up loot other then while I'm still killing stuff or unless my agent needs someting even then I only pick up the double cans.

So either you are extremely slow or you're discussing in the wrong thread since they are discussing LvL4 agents.

Oh and running lvl 4 agents is better then mining crok. Don't forget that, unlike CCPs plan, these missions are done solo.

Mining crok is usually teamwork demanding escort and haulers and a corp/station owner/alliance demanding it's cut.

X'Alor
Posted - 2005.03.29 18:50:00 - [74]
 

and so is making 100's of millions on lvl 4 missions if you loot completely. A group effort really makes insane iskies on lvl 4 missions. 3 skilled pilots minimum, and that's with looting everything and splitting all sales and rewards. And one guy doesn't even shoot.

so what's the problem, still a group effort. and what your saying is CCP should reward a group effort if I understand the end of your statement. they do on lvl 4's compared to a truely solo lvl 4 agent runner that fully COMPLETES and LOOTS the mission.

solo lvl 4 missions in a tank raven that can handle them is slow as crap.....and torps take up most your cargo, so multiple docks and reloads necessary to complete an average lvl 4 mission and loot truely solo. Even if you bookmark and go back to loot. that is still time invested to complete.

and where "we" (my team) are making mad iskies is from recycling all the freeeeeee nothing loot that half the people don't gather and buying a BPC to build a bs(for cost of BPC) to sell for anywhere from 70 to 130 mill.

in a group of three we can make about 20 to 40 mill an hour in bouties, bonus rewards, and rewards. EACH

but that's only in a group effort.

solo your honestly lucky to get 2 mill an hour if you fully loot and complete.

if your gonna flame missions atleast be realistic.

solo means just that ..... solo.

not with an alt hauler solo.

not with an alt cover wingman remote repairer.

not with a cover gankapoc wingman.

solo.

try a few.....truely solo.

Weston McArthur
Black Reign
FATAL Alliance
Posted - 2005.03.29 19:08:00 - [75]
 

Nerf forum posters please. Kthx.

Bleakheart
Caldari
Posted - 2005.03.29 20:01:00 - [76]
 

Please bring back the sticky stating that all arguments on this topic have been beaten thoroughly to death and that anyone making new "OMFG Nerf teh L4 Missionz" threads will have their accounts suspended. Thanks in advance.

Alenas
Gallente
Frankenstein Preservation Agency
Posted - 2005.03.29 20:41:00 - [77]
 

I can't believe people keep whining about level 4s again... and again.. and again. Sounding like broken records. Mostly seem to be written by people who know people who do level 4s with 1 month of experience but who don't do missions themselves for one reason or the other...

Ship prices keep going up? Inflation or many more ships being lost to level 4 missions as well as the player base maturing? In other words maybe less people doing low end mining as the player base matures and influx of new people lessens.. Would be interesting to see the stats...



Mikelangelo
Gallente
Posted - 2005.03.29 23:50:00 - [78]
 

Not all people do level 4 missions in a Raven.

In fact, judging by the way Raven prices and bpc prices have INCREASED in the last couple of months, I'd say the Raven loss rate is certainly NOT trivial. Also judging by the amount of Ravens sold on the market in certain regions, even assuming that 50% of them are for wars/pvp, would still argue that something else is causing massive Raven losses.

Which, would argue AGAINST the claim that Level 4 missions + Raven = easy cash.

The factual data does not support the title of this topic.


S'Daria
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2005.03.30 01:03:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Bleakheart
Please bring back the sticky stating that all arguments on this topic have been beaten thoroughly to death and that anyone making new "OMFG Nerf teh L4 Missionz" threads will have their accounts suspended. Thanks in advance.

Honestly just wait til after the patch. Like I've said before the bounties haven't changed, its just the actual mission rewards that have been adjusted.

CCP already said that they wouldn't be changing Level IV missions.

What I hope they'll do is improved 0.0 with some of the that have been brought up in this thread.

Hopefully when Kali comes out near the end of the year they will have fixed it.


Slave Princess
Posted - 2005.03.30 02:13:00 - [80]
 

Enough with the whining already, Agent runners have to spend days and weeks getting their standing up, doing lots of missions for pennies and crap loot, while miners, haulers and pirates make more money than them with less skills and less expensive ships and equipment.

So when they get to level 4 they can finally start making good amounts of money and you want to take that away from them?

How about you make ALL the minerals in 0.0? or make pirates only able to attack at 0.0? Would they like it?

The game is the way its meant to be, Agent Running is one of the professions of the game, and it should be profitable as other professions are. Agent runners get to do long and boring missions for crap money until level 4, they should enjoy the benefits of level 4 when they finally get there.

Icarus Starkiller
Forge Regional Security
Posted - 2005.03.30 03:26:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Question2
0.0 hunting > level 4s.THIS IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.


It is, and you are very wrong... Hunters in 0.0 don't make anywhere near the raw ISK of L4 missions, and as for rare loot... Once in a blue moon.


I've been hunting 3 systems in deep 0.0 regularly for the last 3 weeks. In that time I've made 1/4 of what I could've made in a similar span of time doing Level 4 combat missions.

Rare drops? Almost nonexistant. Commander spawns? Have not seen a single one yet.

BS's going pop without dropping a can? ALL THE FRIKKIN TIME.

They nerfed loot drops for level 4 missions, and I think that carried over to 0.0 as well because I get comperable drops and comperable frequency of NO CANS here in 0.0 as I do running missions.

Level 4 Missions FTW, oh yeah.

Oh, and my agents ARE in low sec (0.3)

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2005.03.30 05:01:00 - [82]
 

Well finaly got around to doing the serp extrav last night.

After discussions here yesterday i thought id give it a whirl solo on my 2nd account.

Worked fine, only had to warp out once at the start of the second area while i cleared the first attacking spawn leaving the 2 battleships to deal with on returning.

Rest of it np's....

Cheated a little though having my other account delivering torps to me and at the end when one of my seige launchers got bugged just before i was about to take on the 2.5 million, 5 couldn't break the tank, so in came the megaConfused

In short, the more i play with the raven, the easier it seems to getSmile

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.03.30 07:13:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Question2
0.0 hunting > level 4s.THIS IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.


Laughing

What a bald face lie.

Go live in 0.0 for 6-12 months. Actually try and live there. Not go there for a bit of hunting or whatever. Live there.

Then come back and try to say that.

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.30 08:33:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Tobiaz
Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Originally by: Typherin laidai


^^ and on another note. to the idiot that believes you make 100 or so mill from 56hrs of level 4 missions.. ROFL. get a clue ? do you even run missions ?

Meh ugh


First of all I am not an idiot and second of all I do run mission solo in a raven for about 4 days. I speak from my own experiences that I make 2 to 3 mil an hour maybe a bit more when I dont get a silence the informant or a vengeance mission.



Uhmmm

I make 2 to 3 million even with lvl 3 agents in my Raven. I don't pick up loot other then while I'm still killing stuff or unless my agent needs someting even then I only pick up the double cans.

So either you are extremely slow or you're discussing in the wrong thread since they are discussing LvL4 agents.

Oh and running lvl 4 agents is better then mining crok. Don't forget that, unlike CCPs plan, these missions are done solo.

Mining crok is usually teamwork demanding escort and haulers and a corp/station owner/alliance demanding it's cut.


I am talking about lvl 4 missions. Profit is income - expenses. I indeed am very slow with my missions. People sem to forget that in my case I am 6 mill sp character and just started doing lvl 4 missions.

I did some missions yesterday (4 to be precise) done the intercept the sabotagers (the one with the 4 blood raider spawns) sabotaged (the one with the secure cargo containers) militairy presence and the follow up with merc leader.

The first mission was relative easy. Took some time to kill the 1 mil apo, but the rest went pretty well. I reached the bonus time with this one since 4 hours is way to much, took me 1 and a half hour for 6 mil roughly.

Second mission was the one were I needed to kill some drug carriers. This one was a walk in the park. Did this one in 45 min and made a profit of about 3 mil.

Third missions was the millitairy presence mission and this one wedded my pants. First spawn was relative easily done. 9 cruiser and 5 webbers if I recollect it right. Second spawn was also pretty easy with some cruisers alot of frigs and some webbers. Than came third spawn and oh my god

5 Nulifiers
3 Webbers
4 Destroyers (yes the raven 750k variant)

It took me looooooong to kill these guys but in the end I succeeded. Almost loosing my battleship in the process. I was to petrified to think that I should warp out. I managed to kill the webbers first, than the nulifiers. When I got to the ravens I was on 20% shield. By sheer luck and using my tank "tactically" I managed not to go below 10% shield and also not above 43% cap before I killed 3 of these guys.

Pay was good in this one but if I did not had help looting (and getting a prophecy for this guy) I would have done it in 2 and a half hour. Now I did it in 2 hours for a profit of 8 mil.

Directly after this came the mission revenge or something where I needed to kill a mercenairy pilot. This one was relative easy except for the megathron in the end. (needed to warp out on 10% cap and 5% shield after the first spawn cause I had a wrong tank) Than I needed to warp out again before taking out the megatron cause I forgot to put my tanking on the second time (it was getting late and work was waiting)
This mission in the end took me an hour including looting and bagged me 4 mil.

The only pro was that I got a large accomodation armor repair from this last mission which is worth 15 mil on the market I believe.

So the grand total (excluding armor repairer)
Mission/time/isk
1st mission/1,5 hours/6 mil
2nd mission/0,75 hours/3 mil
3rd mission/2 hours/8 mil
4th mission/1 hour/4 mil
(Extra loot 16 mil
Prophecy cost 24 mil)

5,25 hours and 21 mil (13 mil if loot and pay is in the calculation) This comes to 4 million total per hour. This is excluding the reprocessed loot cause the minerals are for a corp m8 raven.

This is me an avarage missions runner that just started lvl 4

capt
Posted - 2005.03.30 08:55:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: capt on 30/03/2005 10:58:28
Been there done that.........

It is just the same old discussion all over again like we had before. There is still no sign of any fresh ideas whatsoever, so I implore you all to just stop the discussion and wait untill after the patch and see what the changes will bring.

If this discussion ends up being the same like the previous ones, and it sure looks like that to me, I think it should be locked right now.

Forget any smart comments that I should bring "fresh ideas" etc instead of calling for a lock as people who have seen me post concering this topic know that I too am deeply entrenched on on the side that claims lvl 4 should NOT be moved to low secure space just to please 0.0 griefers. And NO, lvl4 missions don't get you 1 BILLION/day (exageration) all these huuuuuge amounts here claimed to be earned on one day or 1 hour are very exagerated or 1 time events that would take another few tons of mission to happen again.

Cease the endless risk vs reward rants/discussion whatever you want to call it.

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.30 09:34:00 - [86]
 

My post hold my true income (maybe by 100k isk more or less) this is what I did yesterday playing 8 hours of eve. (had to eat, applied for a corp, did some chatting etc.)

McAnu
Gallente
Rionnag Alba
Posted - 2005.03.30 10:22:00 - [87]
 

Well said Capt Very Happy

Oh and if they made 0.0 more accessible (more entry points) then I am sure many more people wouldn't mind venturing there without getting ganked just trying to enter.............

Arbitos
GamCorp
Posted - 2005.03.30 12:28:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Typherin laidai
And bfr I get the "ooOoo its just the Raven" comments... what a load of crap. his 2 month old m8 is doing exactly the same in an Apoc.

Typherin


No disprespect but your talking complete sh*t about the APOC. For a start he would need Torps or Cruises to lvl 3/4 to deal with the pesky Intys if they get to close, thats a bit of training with low level learning skills.

He'd need decent cap skills to tank all spawns, he'd need to train the prerequists to uses hardners as well. without a decent AMARR BS level wouldn't get the massive tanking advantage of the Apoc. He would need the Energy weapons thingy skill that cuts down energy used by energy turrets. He'd also need armour repairer at a reasonable level.

He'd need good tracking skills or he wouldn't hit sh*t, To actually do any damage he'd need fairly decent level in Large Energy Turret, good Rapid Firing, reasonable Surgical strike etc. The ability to use T2 dmg mods would be very useful too.

Even if your goal in life was purely to fly an APOC for LVL 4 in 2 months, then you would not be able to do Silence the informant Solo or probably most others, you would fail on the first level. You would either:

a) not be able to tank the dmg as them skills were too low.

b) not even get close to breaking the Supreme Parasites tank as all skills invested in the above.

Your also implying that the guy would be training all these skills with no points in learning, which doesn't help. Or let me guess your m8 all got all Adv learning to lvl 4 and trained for the APOC in 2 months Shocked

Next time you want to start a contraversial thread that gets lots of replys, please as least don't make stuff up to make a point, because you evidently have know nothing about Apocs and Gunnerys skills and you certainly do not have a 2 month old pal that Solo's all LVL 4's in one.

Nuff Said

Shocked

Reku
Posted - 2005.03.30 12:32:00 - [89]
 

Another nerf level 4 missions thread...

Let me get this straight. They are difficult and have RISK. Only if CCP showed statics how many ships get destroyed in missions/complex lot more people would reliase that missions and complexes destroy more ships than anything else in this game (even more than pvp).

Reku
Posted - 2005.03.30 12:44:00 - [90]
 

Also add that you can make in complexes as much if not more than in level 4 agent missions if you know how and you dont need to work your standings up for complexes.


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