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Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:03:00 - [1]
 

Ok now theres probably a lot of threads for this allready, but im @ work and cnt be assed to look (Manager keeps giving me evils Wink)

Now I know a lot of ppl are calling for level 4 missions to be moved to < 0.5 ... And i for one agree.

level 4 missions are meant to be difficult are they not ? yet my 1 month old x-corp m8 who really hasn't got a clue about the game (Uses dumber modules that Potsey) Is now a proud level 4 mission runner in his Raven solo. ok I think he's following advice and skipping the Deadspace ones but come on !

How can mission runners say there is 'Risk' in empire when your average n00b can solo the level 4's effortlessly. And bfr I get the "ooOoo its just the Raven" comments... what a load of crap. his 2 month old m8 is doing exactly the same in an Apoc.

Gimp level 4 drops or move the agents out to 0.0 ... or at least low sec.

Typherin

Question2
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:13:00 - [2]
 

I want to see his char sheet.It should take him about a month to just get BS 2 for the raven and torp skills.

I really fail to see how he could have time for engineering,electronics or learning skills.


Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:17:00 - [3]
 

A month ?

Are you having a laugh. if you have the isk you can jump into a raven after 2 weeks.

I very much dought that the learning skills are trained very high if at all. but still

Typherin

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:21:00 - [4]
 

I started doing these missions since last thursday. I am a 6 months old player and have a raven and have done all lvl 3 missions in a raven since I lost my ferox.

These are my experiences since I started.

- Loot droppings are mostly basic items (small nosferatu or armor repairer from a scorp) the only nice loot are the drones, with the parasite drone being the best.
- Spawns are actually more difficult than 0.0 hunting grounds and if you are not paying attention you are f#cked for life.
(example1: Silence the informant stage 2. 12 merc commanders, 9 wingman, 5 spider drones, 4 mercenairy overlords that scramble
example2: 9 Guristas mortifiers, 9 guristas silencers, 1 500k scorpion)
- Missions take more time usually than killing in 0.0.
- Rewards for missions (accept loot) is generally bigger than 0.0 huntings since the spawns are more consentrated.

No I got a question for those who want to discuss this.

What is more dangerous?
Being part of xetic alliance and hunt belts in xetic space or doing lvl 4 missions with bigger spawns in secure space?

My opinion is that if you dont pay attention in xetic space while hunting you must be really watching some good pron for an hour or so if you want to blow up your ship. The missions on the other hand you cant even watch pron or be blown up.

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:30:00 - [5]
 

my point wasn't that the loot was better in empire than in 0.0 , in some cases I guesse it is. But you get commander spawns in 0.0 which i dont believe you do in missions.

My point is that the level 4 missions are ridiculously easy for any raven pilot even with crappy skills.

Send a 1 month old charachter out to hunt NPC's in 0.0 and see how long he lives Wink

Typherin

Nordmann
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:49:00 - [6]
 

in moment there is absolutly no reason to get in 0.0.you can get all from missions... commander(and there loot),good items from npc(+3 implants) and high minerals from the drone mission(1000 mega and 3000 zydrine per mission)....and thats without risk lv 4 mission are not a risk...its a joke....this is ****.

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 09:59:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Nordmann
in moment there is absolutly no reason to get in 0.0.you can get all from missions... commander(and there loot),good items from npc(+3 implants) and high minerals from the drone mission(1000 mega and 3000 zydrine per mission)....and thats without risk lv 4 mission are not a risk...its a joke....this is ****.

Well said

Ok then mebbe missions do have commander spawns ^ hmm

At the end of the day iether level 4's should get a hell of a lot harder or the agents should be moved to somewhere that holds just a Fraction of risk.

And NO ... "Oh Noes Ive run out of torps" is not an element of risk.

Question2
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:10:00 - [8]
 

0.0 hunting > level 4s.THIS IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.

Dhalannil
Minmatar
Apostles of Insanity
Rare Faction
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:12:00 - [9]
 

Quote:
Is now a proud level 4 mission runner in his Raven solo. ok I think he's following advice and skipping the Deadspace ones but come on !


If I go to 0.0 and only kill cruisers and frigs I'm better than the 1-year eve-player than kills everything? The non-deadspace ones are easier,not a piece of cake, but easier. BTW, I would love to see this character do the lvl4 MordusTwisted Evil

Quote:
what a load of crap. his 2 month old m8 is doing exactly the same in an Apoc.

I don't fly Amarr ships but from what I know it takes a lot of skills to fly an apoc, not smth a 2-month old character has.

A NORMAL character that is one or two months old CAN NOT FLY A BATTLESHIP. Why not? Because he has to train skills required for the BS, the modules, has to buy the modules,skillbooks,the ship.
Ok, so these guys probably have been force-fed. So no books-modules-ships to buy. Than they probably can, altho I think a month is to short to get it all together, think 2 barely cuts it?

People are crying to move lvl4-missions to <0.4 space. WHY?? Could it be that everyone else in 0.0 is in an Alliance? Like someone else quoted: do the pirates need more targets?

But I'm getting off-topic here. My point is, lvl4-missions are not easy because force-fed characters can do SOME missions in a battleship.

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:22:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Typherin laidai

Send a 1 month old charachter out to hunt NPC's in 0.0 and see how long he lives Wink
Typherin


If a 1 month old noob is accepted in an alliance like stain and has a raven he can easily kill the 0.0 spawns there as he could do missions. There is no problem for pvp since stain keeps its space pretty save (xetic and other alliances are the same)

If you dont see this point than there is no worth discussing this since your originall argument is that a noob with a raven pwns lvl 4 missions, but a noob within an alliance with a raven doesnt pwn 0.0 hunting grounds?

0.0 alliance space is more or less secure space, or atleast secured space.

New Elksan73
The Tidemark
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:23:00 - [11]
 

Level 4 missions in empire do what they have to do.
You can solo the non-deathspace missions very easy due to warpin distance, but the non-deathspace missions are crappy on loot.
Now for the somewhat nice loot ( 250mm railgun compressed, c5l medium booster, barton cap recharge etc etc, best i got in 2 months lvl 4) you have to go into deathspace. Still doable solo but i dont recommend it. - Guristas Extravaganza - mission, 3th stage has over 10 bs (1 group has 5 bs + support) and a whole bunch of cruisers/frigs, i really dont want to solo these guys. So dont give me the no risk politics, any n00b doin lvl 4 is indeed skippin the deathspace mission and thus not gettin the so called great loot and minerals (that Drone mission people were talkin about is in Deathspace, so the n00b doesnt get to do this mission he is skippin it, cause if he would go in he would loose his Raven, spider drones would outrun his Torps and would web him to an almost standstill)

The only thing that maybe a bit over the top are the bounty's. The loot <> Risk is balanced to my opinion.

Syzygy Three
Caldari
Elemental Stoneworks
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:26:00 - [12]
 

I've done some L4's in a Dominix, and most of them weren't particularly easy for me in that ship. I would go so far as to say that missions like Guristas Extravaganza L4 or missions with Mercenaries are hard as hell and basically impossible to finish by the bonus deadline, especially solo.

Maybe it's a case of torpedoes being excellent for NPC'ing (read: better than virtually anything else) that tips the scales in favor of the Raven. Nnot to mention that it can tank reasonably well while still being able to do dmg. Hmmm...

I'm not sure how moving missions to 0.4 and lower would make the missions inherently more difficult. Maybe getting to an agent would be harder, but the mission itself?

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:27:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: New Elksan73
Level 4 missions in empire do what they have to do.
You can solo the non-deathspace missions very easy due to warpin distance, but the non-deathspace missions are crappy on loot.
Now for the somewhat nice loot ( 250mm railgun compressed, c5l medium booster, barton cap recharge etc etc, best i got in 2 months lvl 4) you have to go into deathspace. Still doable solo but i dont recommend it. - Guristas Extravaganza - mission, 3th stage has over 10 bs (1 group has 5 bs + support) and a whole bunch of cruisers/frigs, i really dont want to solo these guys. So dont give me the no risk politics, any n00b doin lvl 4 is indeed skippin the deathspace mission and thus not gettin the so called great loot and minerals (that Drone mission people were talkin about is in Deathspace, so the n00b doesnt get to do this mission he is skippin it, cause if he would go in he would loose his Raven, spider drones would outrun his Torps and would web him to an almost standstill)

The only thing that maybe a bit over the top are the bounty's. The loot <> Risk is balanced to my opinion.


So the loot/Risk is balanced to that of the agents in 0.0 space is it ?

Im sorry but thats ******ed.

Typherin

Azur
Amarr
Pelican.
Violent Entity
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:28:00 - [14]
 

I doubt the 2 month old character in the Apoc is doing anything but the easy L4s simply because of the sheer amount of gunnery and cap skills needed to do the harder ones.

Boro
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:32:00 - [15]
 

Basicaly it boils down to this. This is a non-issue for most players. Those who drag this issue out are lobbying for either of 2 reasons: they're a PK and they want more people to kill in 0.0 and/or they make alot of money on ebay selling rare items and don't want to lose their income.

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Syzygy Three
I've done some L4's in a Dominix, and most of them weren't particularly easy for me in that ship. I would go so far as to say that missions like Guristas Extravaganza L4 or missions with Mercenaries are hard as hell and basically impossible to finish by the bonus deadline, especially solo.

Maybe it's a case of torpedoes being excellent for NPC'ing (read: better than virtually anything else) that tips the scales in favor of the Raven. Nnot to mention that it can tank reasonably well while still being able to do dmg. Hmmm...

I'm not sure how moving missions to 0.4 and lower would make the missions inherently more difficult. Maybe getting to an agent would be harder, but the mission itself?



Ok thats a good point. and I can imagine they are quite hard in a Dommi.

Yep i agree the missions themselves wouldnt be any harder. but it would mean that mission runners would have to deal with pirates/gate camps ... and basicly have all the same risks that all non empire players have to deal with. Shouldnt they get some sort of advantage for actually taking some risks ?

lol and why are Carebears moaning anyway... if it gets moved to low sec it will mean you can pwn those lil loot thiefs on the gate missions Wink

^now you cant say you wouldnt love that Laughing

Typherin

Faster ThanJesus
Caldari
EVE Cemetery
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:34:00 - [17]
 

Could we please let this topic rest until after the next patch?

New Elksan73
The Tidemark
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:36:00 - [18]
 

For all anyone knows i am ******ed, lol.

anyway, maybe we should exchange info. I have no prove of what kind of loot drops in 0.0 al i "hear" its the best, dread stuff, gistii stuff etc etc.

In empire i DO know what loot drops, PER mission you get 1 or 2 nice modules, most times 1 named gun and 1 other normal named module everthing else is basic, or even named basic.

Please inform me of a avarage loot drop in 0.0 so we can compare!!

Be mightfull though i really could be ******ed.


Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.29 10:41:00 - [19]
 

Typhin,

You are only quoting and replying to points that you ether have counter arguments for or validate your theory in some part.

You havent adressed my statement about the noob in 0.0 space.

Second of all, your arguments seem to wind up towards one point. You want more targets for pvp in non-secure space, by bringing up gatecamps and pvp. This means your dont give start this discussion open minded.

The Enslaver
Viziam
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:04:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Question2
0.0 hunting > level 4s.THIS IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.


It is, and you are very wrong... Hunters in 0.0 don't make anywhere near the raw ISK of L4 missions, and as for rare loot... Once in a blue moon.

New Elksan73
The Tidemark
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:22:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: The Enslaver
Originally by: Question2
0.0 hunting > level 4s.THIS IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.


It is, and you are very wrong... Hunters in 0.0 don't make anywhere near the raw ISK of L4 missions, and as for rare loot... Once in a blue moon.


Aah the ISK point, this is where i kinda have to agree, the bounty's in Empire seem overdone, as for loot, in 0.0 you have some change then to get rare loot then as you stated, be it very very little, in Empire, no way an thats how it should be. Named items will drop in Empire, like 'Malkuth' Heavy launcher but no rare stuff.

Akaviri
Interstel
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:24:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Akaviri on 29/03/2005 11:24:34
One way for CCP to decrease the amount of isk/hour someone can make from lvl 4 missions is to go through with the missle changes. Torps shouldn't be able to hit small ships for 100% damage all the time. I've done lvl 4 missions with a Dominix, Scorpion, Megathron, and Raven. With the Raven I can go through them about twice as fast as with any other ship.

This would also: 1.) Help make cruisers more useful in PvP situations, 2.) Allow the introduction of Tech II missle launchers and ballistic controls.

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:36:00 - [23]
 

k lets picture this.

I play 8 hours a day for a week and make 100 mil isk bounty/reward and selling all minerals and modules accept the occasional named item (best I found in 4 days is a 150mm prototype)

I play 8 hours a day for a week and play in (dread) guristas region. I find one dread siege launcher, which I dont sell btw, and have 40 mill bounty reward and some rare named items (not faction, but like ZX cruise or siege launchers, named balistic control units, some dread passive hardnerss etc.)

Now in the first case I want to have that dread guristas siege launcher. How much am I gonna pay for it to get it? 300 mil, 500 mil? That would be 3 to 5 weeks doing 8 hours a day lvl 4 missions.

A dread balistic control unit found? Sells at 300 to 500 mil?

Offcourse you make less money if you dont sell your rare loot. But if a lvl 4 mission runner wants them he is gonna pay a hefty price for it.

An agent runner want the commander tag to get the navy issue raven bpc? Pay 400+ mil at an auction (see auction forum)

How can you say that 0.0 doesnt give more isk if the prices for selling and buying rare modules is insane?

Thanit
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:42:00 - [24]
 

Because the chance of getting that dread siege launcher in one week of nping is 0,0001% only.

You can spend months hunting in guristas territory and not get one. Or you can get extremely lucky and get one within a week. The latter case you hear about, the former you don't.

As for 100 million doing lvl 4's for a week ?
I make 100 million isk doing lvl 3's for a week, and probably more.

A week of 8 hour lvl 4 isk amounts to several hundred million.

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:43:00 - [25]
 

See Dev Blog

Originally by: Oveur
- Agents now correctly take into consideration the security rating of the system they are in. There was a bug in the formula so that previously, the higher the level and better Effective Quality the agent, the less security rating had effect on the Reward/Bonus Reward/LP. This is now done correctly resulting in some high sec agent runners getting nerfed (high LVL, high EQ, 1.0) and low sec runners getting some love too (high LVL, high EQ, 0.0). However, this is not a deliberate nerf dear friends, I have been quite adamant on not nerfing Empire to boost low sec runners, but this is how it is supposed to be and we have to correct that.


This will all change after the next patch, those doing missions in lower security rated systems will get the better loot/rewards.

Bob Smackalof
Caldari
Woopatang
The Spire Collective
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:47:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Bob Smackalof on 29/03/2005 12:06:05
Edited by: Bob Smackalof on 29/03/2005 12:04:46
Edited by: Bob Smackalof on 29/03/2005 11:47:59
Ok here are my learning skills Ty.
Analytical Mind / Rank 1 / SP: 8000 of 45255
Empathy / Rank 1 / SP: 8000 of 45255
Instant Recall / Rank 1 / SP: 18839 of 45255
Iron Will / Rank 1 / SP: 8000 of 45255
Learning / Rank 1 / SP: 45255 of 256000
Spatial Awareness / Rank 1 / SP: 8000 of 45255
6 Learning skills trained, for a total of 96,094 skillPoints.
if it works the rest of my skills are HERE

yes they are crappy and i'm hardly proud of going round in a Raven and it's more like 2 months now too.

MachZERO
Minmatar
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:51:00 - [27]
 

*sigh*

Another thread??

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2005.03.29 11:57:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Galk on 29/03/2005 12:05:51
Bring back the chainingLaughing

Nahh just kidding, though i spose it would be a quick fix responce to nothing happening in 0.0.

This last couple of days, the first time iv'e decided to tackle the lv4's. Your all pretty much right, few tweaks, a visit and helping hand from my good buddy in his raven (2nd account) i was able to go through anything.

Worked out that turning my mega into a ubber ranged damage machine and mixing that up with the raven for deadspace missions was the win. Even if you have 4-5 bs facing you and a crap load of other stuff, all you do is clear the gate, you get heat deal with it, then simpley move the battle platform in and out to extreme range in the dead space and let rip.

They don't even bother coming towards you most of the time. Times they do, just have your raven crossfire, it can handle 1 bs easy, and they allways go for it not the mega, which is pounding them.

Only trouble i have is those stinking sentry guns, i found droping the mega in and wasting a few while alligned to warp and get out helped with that.

Tbh all of this pays more than playing with npc's does in 0.0... belts for sure (unless you get lucky and meet a officer) which i have to say i only ever did once, and it was only a 3 million jobbie, and i like did non stop belt hoping for weeks and months:/

Having said all that though, ccp/devs whoever did make many positive steps to spice it up a little, high level complex, mining ops, officers ect..... i think there will be more to come.

it might actualy balance out the lv4's that indeed do seem a little rewarding in some areas.

Though i have to say it still and never will never hold a dime to the allmighty crockite roid.

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2005.03.29 12:05:00 - [29]
 

Perhaps if positive quality L4s were moved to 0.1 - 0.4 space and negative quality L4s stayed where they are, that would at long last silence the 0.0 peanut gallery?

Somehow I doubt it.

You guys are going to get your fun when the map gets redrawn and you get more chokepoints. More people to gank. And really you should be campaigning for better uses for POSs. Or putting T2 deep core miners onto BSs and fitting Crokite crystals. I'd like to hear how an Empire mission runner can earn money that quick.

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2005.03.29 12:06:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Typhin,

You are only quoting and replying to points that you ether have counter arguments for or validate your theory in some part.

You havent adressed my statement about the noob in 0.0 space.

Second of all, your arguments seem to wind up towards one point. You want more targets for pvp in non-secure space, by bringing up gatecamps and pvp. This means your dont give start this discussion open minded.


Sorry I missed that bit m8.

A noob in 0.0 space has a lot more risk than someone in empire whether the space is secure or not. pirates DO and probably allways will operate in any system of space they want regardless of who owns it.

As to the wanting more targets. rofl yes.. of course i do. but at the same time I dont operate in 0.0 anyway and mainly stick to low sec where dealing with sentrys is the only real downside ugh So mission runners operating in 0.0 wouldnt make a lot of differance to me.


As to the comment from someone about 0.0 drops ? yes people get nice Gisti/Domination drops. but theyre rare.. as they should be. A basic CPU module is still quite a frequent drop from NPC battleships ugh


Typherin


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