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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:11:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 23/03/2005 06:23:56


1. Missiles
- Can't tank? Can't outrun? Goodbye. NOS + Cruise + Disruptor = useless "everything-smaller-than-bs".

2. Map
- Hey lets check the map and find a blob to kill! > Scouting/Intel/Tactics/Brains/Breathing Oxygen

3. Safespots vs Scanning
- Safespot: 30 seconds. Scanning safespot: 30 minutes. Watching him warp to another safespot right as you come close: Priceless :/

4. Instajumps
- Ship agility > Ship speed. WCS/interceptor + instas = God.

5. Dissapearing while scrambled
- Bleh. Exploit. Bug. Lame. If you argue, you are wrong.

6. Damage/HP ratio
- Sensor booster > Dmg mod in terms of DPS. DPS of all lvl 5 skills vs DPS of all lvl 4 skills cancelled out by a missed shot. Reload ammo during combat? EL OH EL. Ships with zero cap regen, zero eccm, zero defense, zero hardeners = WIN?!?!

7. Cruisers not being the middleground
- HP closer to frig than BS. Agility closer to BS than frig. Weak slow arse pos. Compounded by missile face-pwnage of apocalyptic proportions

8. Session changes
- 'NO DUDE!! DON'T GANG ME--ARRGHHHH CRAP CRAP CRAP! JUMP DAMN YOU... ..I'm dead. ;'( "

Bored, annoyed, whatever..

Damn starbases, new ships, and all the content to hell if the very core of the game, PVP, is basically: Paper, Rock, RAVEN! - with emphasis on ganking and no-brainer 0.0 tactics. :|

Digi needs <3 Sad

Amataras
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:19:00 - [2]
 

2. Fixed next patch

Dice Morgan
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:23:00 - [3]
 

4) Not more bloody whining about instas. Instas are good for you pvpers. With instas, the non-pvpers (who you all seem to want to go after instead of picking a fight with someone who wants to pvp) will take the chance and you'll get a chance at them and if they're flying anything bigger than a frig, you might well get them.

If you kill instas, the peaceful players will quit and since they provide most of teh revenue, CCP will go down. Oh, and no new content since the vast majority of teh money they pour into thegame develops content for you combat players.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Dice Morgan
4) Not more bloody whining about instas. Instas are good for you pvpers. With instas, the non-pvpers (who you all seem to want to go after instead of picking a fight with someone who wants to pvp) will take the chance and you'll get a chance at them and if they're flying anything bigger than a frig, you might well get them.

If you kill instas, the peaceful players will quit and since they provide most of teh revenue, CCP will go down. Oh, and no new content since the vast majority of teh money they pour into thegame develops content for you combat players.


Wrong.

Next? ;\

Leet Al
Amarr
Black Eclipse Corp
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:30:00 - [5]
 

I wouldn't mind if they dropped the insta system, but then cut down on the warp-in distance/increased gate and station activation range. That way you can still do speedy travel, but still be subjectable to whatever.
Instas make eve feel so... tiny. Space is supposed to be big. :(

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:33:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Dice Morgan
carebear whining

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
brilliant and concise summary of a lot of eve's problems


I'd gladly see my 4000 or so instas become useless Neutral

papadie
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:34:00 - [7]
 

why is so wrong digital ??? in my opinion instans are for us researchers, miners etc. no combat involve for us if you whant pvp you have if you whant, but no you whant some folish nobs that they dont know how to pvp, i dont see no proud to pod kill a noob.
soory for my english.

Soren
PAK
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:38:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Soren on 23/03/2005 06:38:38
Only 8 things? Not much thought put into that post..

/me <3's digi - feel better? Wink

Dice Morgan
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:39:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist


Wrong.

Next? ;\


Ah yes, the flat-out refusal rather than debate the issue. So convincing.

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Originally by: Dice Morgan
carebear whining

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
brilliant and concise summary of a lot of eve's problems


I'd gladly see my 4000 or so instas become useless Neutral


Good for you. I can't help noticing that you've also gone for flat-out denial (oh, and a casual insult) rather than actually make a case for me being wrong though.

BlackPlague
Dark Light Inc
Caretakers
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:41:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 23/03/2005 06:13:54

1. Missiles
- Can't tank? Can't outrun? Goodbye. NOS + Cruise + Disruptor = useless "everything-smaller-than-bs".


It takes a BS forever to lock a frig. If you cant get out by then... Rolling Eyes It's a [email protected] frig for gawd's sake. They are supposed to be disposable.

Quote:

3. Safespots vs Scanning
- Safespot: 30 seconds. Scanning safespot: 30 minutes. Watching him warp to another safespot right as you come close: Priceless :/


Put in a petition to have them removed from safe spot and put in front of you in your optional range. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

4. Instajumps
- Ship agility > Ship speed. WCS/interceptor + instas = God.


Frigs need to be nerf'd to the stoneage.

Quote:
5. Dissapearing while scrambled
- Bleh. Exploit. Bug. Lame. If you argue, you are wrong.


Very frustrating.

Quote:
7. Cruisers not being the middleground
- HP closer to frig than BS. Agility closer to BS than frig. Weak slow arse pos. Compounded by missile face-pwnage of apocalyptic proportions


Again, its a cruiser - disposable. Big whoop.

Quote:
8. Session changes
- 'NO DUDE!! DON'T GANG ME--ARRGHHHH CRAP CRAP CRAP! JUMP DAMN YOU... ..I'm dead. ;'( "


Session changes are a PAIN IN THE A$$. Great fix er bandaid CCP

Quote:
Bored, annoyed, whatever..


Sit in .9 and do Lvl 4 Agent Missions like everyone else is doing these days. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Damn starbases, new ships, and all the content to hell if the very core of the game, PVP, is basically: Paper, Rock, RAVEN! - with emphasis on ganking and no-brainer 0.0 tactics. :|


100% agree (minus the Raven part). Every patch is something being nerf'd to the stoneage while "WOO we added new agent missions, a pretty spot on a planet, a new godmode frig, etc etc". While ignoring the problems that have been present since the time prior to Castor.


Tairos Hakonnus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:48:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
8. Session changes
- 'NO DUDE!! DON'T GANG ME--ARRGHHHH CRAP CRAP CRAP! JUMP DAMN YOU... ..I'm dead. ;'(

This has been the story of my life lately Crying or Very sad

Good points though, I hope a certain group of people takes them into account.

Also I thought this was classic:

PVP is basically: Paper, Rock, RAVEN!

Sarela
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:52:00 - [12]
 

1. Missiles
- Waaah they keep using missiles on me.. I need a hug.. or a cookie..

2. Map
- I don't want them to find me so fast.

3. Safespots vs Scanning
- They keep running away from me. I just wana kill them. it's not fair. I should be able to kill them NOW. No one should have a chance to run away from my leetness.

4. Instajumps
- They are getting past my Gate Kamp. I should be able to kill a cargo ship full of zydrine that took 2 weeks to mine trying to get to the empire market.

5. Dissapearing while scrambled
- Again they keep running away. Everyone needs to stand still for 10 minutes till I can blow them up.. it's not fair.

6. Damage/HP ratio
- Sensor booster > *Universal translator puffs smoke and catches fire*.

7. Cruisers not being the middleground
- The weak wont sit still and I cant win against the bigger ship.. thats just wrong.

8. Session changes
- Oh sure.. NOW they are using "/Tactics/Brains/Breathing Oxygen" to beat me.. thats not fair..


Bored, annoyed, whatever..

Damn starbases, new ships, and all the content to hell if the very core of the game, PVP, is basically: I cant shoot anyone but everyone else can shoot me.

Digi needs "/win eve" command Sad

GodEmperor
Minmatar
Dominatus Phasmatis Holdings
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:57:00 - [13]
 

someone is using instas and i cant gank his indy...booo hooo

notice::cheese not included with above whinne::

do agree on the safe spots and about the cusiers they are pretty much useless ... scanning is a joke ...

ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2005.03.23 06:58:00 - [14]
 

reverse thinking if you want a focus on basic gameplay improvements start posting constructive thoughts on content (watch the stuff that isnt discussed ie basic gameplay pvp issues get fixed)

So lets get on it folks ideas for missions, changes to 0.0-0.4 jumpgate setups, new content, ship classes (2-3 are coming soon) dreadnaughts and titans should make things slightly different medium remote refining POS stations

Rental costs rising - all good for PVP as it forces more players to rim space for you prats to shoot up

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:03:00 - [15]
 

Asking me to debate the point is asking me to beat a very very expired horse to the point of his mutilated flesh-pulp being the right consistancy of school glue.

But fine.

The way instas work promote more ganking than anything else in the game, yet people who generally want to avoid pvp defend it? Why? You realize that in one day a fleet of battleships can make its way across six regions killing anything in sight? How do I know? I've done it. BoB has done it. CA has done it. Everybody who has ever been in a pvp or pirate corp has done it. Everybody moving everywhere with ease means EVE is smaller. Smaller eve means no local politics or economies on top of homogeneous pvp.

People are whining how the blockade runner transport ships are useless, WELL MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T BE IF SPEED WAS A FACTOR IN TRAVEL, YEAH?

You think about interceptors for a moment, my taranis aligns in about 0.5 seconds from a complete stop. Alliances complain how they can't defend their space yet 75% of all incursions are made with lone interceptors or fast-warping ships incapable of being locked down at the jump in point. Your options are what? Somehow magically move AHEAD of the interceptor moving down into your territory, place a mobile warp disruptor in his path, and HOPE you get lucky such that it actually stops him away from the gate?

How are researchers and miners screwed by this? Researchers don't need to fly battleships around, miners don't need to constantly travel to mine. Using an interceptor with mwd just means an extra TWO WHOLE SECONDS added to your travel time for each system.

So yeah, instajumps are convenient, but doing more jumps per day means more people willing to make that extra few jumps to kill you or buy that cheaper ship in yulai. I still win

Viceroy
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:06:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Viceroy on 23/03/2005 07:06:55
Originally by: Dice Morgan
..don't take away my preciousss instas...


Instas ruin the game. They swap brains for a simple mouse click. No longer do you have to fit your ship for hostile space or find friends to protect you or scout, you can just avoid it all with a click of your mouse.

Yeah sure its easy, I use instas, they allow me to avoid trouble and go fast. No hassle, everything easy as pie. But the ideal of a game isn't to make things as easy as possible on everybody. Then it becomes a mindnumbing grind where all you have to do is endure timesinks longer than anyone else.

BUT OFC I'M A GRIEFER AND MY LIFE QUEST IS TO RUIN YOUR GAMING EXPERIENCE AND KILL YOUR DOG. So yeah I might be wrong!

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
3. Safespots vs Scanning
- Safespot: 30 seconds. Scanning safespot: 30 minutes. Watching him warp to another safespot right as you come close: Priceless :/


Meh, overall some good points, but what exactly do you mean here?

IMO safespot scanning should NEVER get below about 3 minutes or so. If someone wants to not fight and manages to warp off, they can then log. If SS scanning was down to 30 seconds, we no longer have that option. You'll basically need to stay logged on, continously warping Shocked

Sorry, but I simply can't agree to that. Soon as RL rears its ugly head I basically lose a ship and possibly a pod because SS scanning is really fast? No thanks...

If I'm completely misunderstanding you, sorry.. its pretty early for me and I'm not sure I'm awake yet.

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:18:00 - [18]
 

Each and every single one of those points gets my complete and utter support.

Particularly INSTA'S!!

I mean, ok, in empire - allow warp ins at 5km, k? Make empire life easy(er), k?

But, 0.0? No, sorry. 0.0 is meant to be VERY HARD and VERY REWARDING.

So, I'd like to add one:

Level 4 agent missions.

Don't wanna travel? Want a bs spawn on demand? Wanna be immune while you do it? HELL YEAH, do agent missions.

Woot.

Dianabolic
Reikoku
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:21:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
3. Safespots vs Scanning
- Safespot: 30 seconds. Scanning safespot: 30 minutes. Watching him warp to another safespot right as you come close: Priceless :/


Meh, overall some good points, but what exactly do you mean here?

IMO safespot scanning should NEVER get below about 3 minutes or so. If someone wants to not fight and manages to warp off, they can then log. If SS scanning was down to 30 seconds, we no longer have that option. You'll basically need to stay logged on, continously warping Shocked

Sorry, but I simply can't agree to that. Soon as RL rears its ugly head I basically lose a ship and possibly a pod because SS scanning is really fast? No thanks...

If I'm completely misunderstanding you, sorry.. its pretty early for me and I'm not sure I'm awake yet.


Log off? The point is that people often stay logged in, not because they have RL to deal with, but so they can do other things whilst artificially affecting the pilots in local.

= wrong (imo).

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
3. Safespots vs Scanning
- Safespot: 30 seconds. Scanning safespot: 30 minutes. Watching him warp to another safespot right as you come close: Priceless :/


Meh, overall some good points, but what exactly do you mean here?

IMO safespot scanning should NEVER get below about 3 minutes or so. If someone wants to not fight and manages to warp off, they can then log. If SS scanning was down to 30 seconds, we no longer have that option. You'll basically need to stay logged on, continously warping Shocked

Sorry, but I simply can't agree to that. Soon as RL rears its ugly head I basically lose a ship and possibly a pod because SS scanning is really fast? No thanks...

If I'm completely misunderstanding you, sorry.. its pretty early for me and I'm not sure I'm awake yet.


Log off? The point is that people often stay logged in, not because they have RL to deal with, but so they can do other things whilst artificially affecting the pilots in local.

= wrong (imo).


I agree with you, but perhaps you missed my point.

30 second SS scanning okay? 2 minute log off timer?

See the problem when something does force you to log off?

Dice Morgan
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:22:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
The way instas work promote more ganking than anything else in the game, yet people who generally want to avoid pvp defend it?


And the people abusing them are almost always pirates and their arguement always comes down to "I can't kill as many people as I want to"

Quote:
Why? You realize that in one day a fleet of battleships can make its way across six regions killing anything in sight? How do I know? I've done it. BoB has done it. CA has done it. Everybody who has ever been in a pvp or pirate corp has done it.


Yes, so what?

Quote:
Everybody moving everywhere with ease means EVE is smaller. Smaller eve means no local politics or economies on top of homogeneous pvp.


Ah, you want longer travel times, the collapse of alliances and no realistic chance of running a gate camp or unified defence (actually yeah, you probably do want those last two)

Quote:
People are whining how the blockade runner transport ships are useless, WELL MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T BE IF SPEED WAS A FACTOR IN TRAVEL, YEAH?


Shouting just means you have nothing to say loudly. And this makes no sense at all.

Quote:
You think about interceptors for a moment, my taranis aligns in about 0.5 seconds from a complete stop.


How many people apart from pirates fly intys? Come to think of it, the only people I've ever seen flying intys were pirates and blockade runners.

Quote:
Alliances complain how they can't defend their space yet 75% of all incursions are made with lone interceptors or fast-warping ships incapable of being locked down at the jump in point. Your options are what? Somehow magically move AHEAD of the interceptor moving down into your territory, place a mobile warp disruptor in his path, and HOPE you get lucky such that it actually stops him away from the gate?


Or you could use the alliance channel and actually have a unified defence (I'm part of Stain by the way). In fact, let's take the converse: You're trying to run a gate camp. With instas, you stand a decent chance of getting through (which is still a long way from certain). Without instas, sheer and certain death every time. Result, no-one will risk it and you won't even get to gank the players you already do.

Quote:
How are researchers and miners screwed by this? Researchers don't need to fly battleships around, miners don't need to constantly travel to mine. Using an interceptor with mwd just means an extra TWO WHOLE SECONDS added to your travel time for each system.


Researchers? I don't know, I'm not a researcher. Miners? Let's see, you add a massive amount of travel time when you need to take your mins to market, you remove any chance whatsoever of getting past gate camps (or are you really siggesting that miners should be forced to stay in the same area their whole playtime?)

Quote:
So yeah, instajumps are convenient, but doing more jumps per day means more people willing to make that extra few jumps to kill you or buy that cheaper ship in yulai.


And that doesn't make sense either. With instas, a few extra jumps is nothing and without instas, anywhere from an extra few minutes to an extra half-hour. Instas increase trade and travel.

Quote:
I still win


Declaring victory before you have successfully won your case is a sign of insecurity. Tell me, do you often feel ignored?

Dice Morgan
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:26:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Viceroy
Edited by: Viceroy on 23/03/2005 07:06:55
Originally by: Dice Morgan
..don't take away my preciousss instas...



Did putting words in my mouth just become the new sport or something? At least have the dignity to debate what I actually said, rather than some strawman construct of what I said.

Quote:
Instas ruin the game. They swap brains for a simple mouse click. No longer do you have to fit your ship for hostile space or find friends to protect you or scout, you can just avoid it all with a click of your mouse.


There's a great many problems in the game but the chance of getting through a gatecamp that instas represent is killing the game? Unless you're idea of a good game is the slightly slower version of Quake that Eve would be without them...

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:27:00 - [23]
 

People are quick to post and make themselves foolish without actually considering that yes OMG, everything I said goes both ways!

Buhu, your alliance mates want to tackle me? EAT CRUISE MOFO. But hey! Thats alright because frigates are disposable and you can warp out before a bs locks you! Can you guess what an interceptor was designed to do? Give you a hint.. its not to warp away from the target! Time to eat a cookie tho because I'm clearly a griefer who is just looking for self gratification.

Safespots? Hey look your alliance is trying to defend its space from a small band of pirates, HOW CUTE! Blobbing us with 100 ships and now I'm going to laugh at them as they try to find me, and then further laugh at them when they whine about not being able to defened space from gankers who are not out for fair fights!. But its ok, cause consentual pvp is happy pvp! Not like it would force people to gank at jumpins cause there is no way to track people in space within a reasonable amount of time... oh wait. Rolling Eyes


sux 2 be me, i can run around alliance space, alone, or with a group of buddies and never get killed by a blob and never get trapped in, while finding every single person that is mining from anywhere in EVE. Yes clearly I'm begging the devs for the game to be made easier on griefers such as I.

WTB 1 "I win EVE" button. Laughing

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:40:00 - [24]
 

Calling me insecure for declaring victory over your pathetic excuse for logic and you're the one posting with an alt? Only means one thing, you're insecure of your ideas and having people who disagree with them link their sheer stupidity with the portrait of your main char. Cool

Anyhow, carebear flamefest aside, all these things work both ways and virtually anyone can abuse them. I can abuse missiles for my self-defense just as much as anyone. I can use instajumps to go anywhere I want even with all of eve hostile to me. I can set up a gank ship and screw you out of a 500mil isk battleship with nothing but stock mods. I can gank in 0.0 all I want and when someone shows up to fight me I'll just safespot if they're too hard for me to take on. I don't need to know anything about the region I'm in to find all the miners and npcers. I can be stupid and let myself get caught by a bunch of frigs and just log off, assuming I don't pwn them in the face with CM's. And if cruisers suck? Whatever.. won't fly them.


Raven1x
The Scope
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:47:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Raven1x on 23/03/2005 07:48:54
Edited by: Raven1x on 23/03/2005 07:48:37
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Calling me insecure for declaring victory over your pathetic excuse for logic and you're the one posting with an alt?


Fine, this is my main. For teh record, I didn't bother checking which character was selected and didn't think anyone woud be desperate enough to score points to bother.

Quote:
Only means one thing, you're insecure of your ideas and having people who disagree with them link their sheer stupidity with the portrait of your main char.


Ah, we're back to slining insults rather than defending our ideas are we? Interesting debate tactic.

Quote:
Anyhow, carebear flamefest aside,


Hmm, so far you've insulted me, used an arguement that amounts to "you're too stupid to see how right I am" (by the way, I work for a spirituality website, I see this a half-dozen times a day and it always make you look like you've run out of ways to defend your arguement but haven't got the dignity to simply concede the point) and I'm flaming?

Quote:
all these things work both ways and virtually anyone can abuse them. I can abuse missiles for my self-defense just as much as anyone. I can use instajumps to go anywhere I want even with all of eve hostile to me. I can set up a gank ship and screw you out of a 500mil isk battleship with nothing but stock mods. I can gank in 0.0 all I want and when someone shows up to fight me I'll just safespot if they're too hard for me to take on. I don't need to know anything about the region I'm in to find all the miners and npcers. I can be stupid and let myself get caught by a bunch of frigs and just log off, assuming I don't pwn them in the face with CM's. And if cruisers suck? Whatever.. won't fly them.


And you want our only real defence against being ganked removed and somehow we're supposed to believe that this isn't in any way motivated by self-interest?

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:52:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: mahhy


See the problem when something does force you to log off?


Fit a cloaking device. Problem solved.

Very Happy

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:54:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I can gank in 0.0 all I want and when someone shows up to fight me I'll just safespot if they're too hard for me to take on.


Still wondering what you're thinking in regard to the 30 second SS finding? Stop ranting Digi and discuss Very Happy

mahhy
MASS
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:54:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: mahhy


See the problem when something does force you to log off?


Fit a cloaking device. Problem solved.

Very Happy


Yay \o/

Yet another must have module. Confused

Kinmaul IV
Posted - 2005.03.23 07:58:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Sarela

5. Dissapearing while scrambled
- Again they keep running away. Everyone needs to stand still for 10 minutes till I can blow them up.. it's not fair.



The rest of the points are opinions on game mechanics that are open to debate, but this one really is a no brainer. Being able to log-off/disconnect in any game to avoid a penalty (be it either from PvP or PvE) is a flaw in a game design. Pulling the plug on your modem or logging out of a game is exploiting whether you want to believe it or not. Having a free 'get-out-of-jail' card with unlimited uses will ruin any game in the long run.

ollobrains
5th Front enterprises
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2005.03.23 08:01:00 - [30]
 

The logoff issue is complex sure if you have to log off you need to be safe at the same time using it for combat is a bit weak ? a 5 minute ability to attack youre ship is ideal - dunno its favours on both sides of change or no change.


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