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Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.04 03:07:00 - [1]
 

Skills and relevant mods on my stabber:
Gunnery 4
Medium Projectile Turret 2
Motion Prediction 3
Rapid Firing 2
Sharpshooter 2
Minmatar Cruiser 2
1 F-AQ Delay Line Scan Tracking Subroutine (+5.75% range/tracking speed)
2 Azimuth Descalloping Tracking Enhancers (+5.5% range/tracking speed)
2 650mm Artillery: Photon M (+10% range)
2 220mm Vulcan Autocannons: Depleted Uranium M (0 range modifer)

Despite starting combat at about 37km with thunderbolt heavy missiles, simple NPC Pirate Raiders are easily getting to with 5km and parking there nibbling my ship to pieces. Using ammo with better damage but range penalties is suicidal. The 220 Vulcans have their optimal range cut to around 700m. Not even the NPC pirates are stupid enough to close within range. And that's exactly what's required: them to close in. Cruisers are too slow to close the gap themselves.

The ammo range changes were not very well thought out. The changes make using any of the high damage ammo too much of a liability to consider. Using emp ammo in allegedly close combat weapons for cruisers is suicidal. I'd have a better chance running over the target. And using depleted uraniuma or photon (depending on shield status) allows even the npc pirates to park so close to my cruiser that only my defenses keep it from taking stupid amounts of damage.

Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery
Posted - 2003.07.04 04:19:00 - [2]
 

"simple NPC Pirate Raiders are easily getting to with 5km and parking there nibbling my ship to pieces."

Move. Ship not fast enough? Redesign your combat strategy as it's obviously inadequate.

MoonDragn
Caldari
J0urneys End
Posted - 2003.07.04 04:31:00 - [3]
 

Your loadout is flawed. You are equiped to fight cruisers but not frigates. If you are going to hunt frigates use the faster tracking guns. You have all medium weapons with slow tracking. You will have a hard time hitting frigates with those.

Zeidrich
Caldari
Orion Mining
Posted - 2003.07.04 04:39:00 - [4]
 

Or put on some afterburners. 2 Y-S8 or LiF afterburners will let you keep any pirates at optimal range. I have a standard AB and 1 Y-S8 on my moa, and I have a slow arsed caldari ship for chrissake. I go more than fast enough to keep out of range. With my old load out I could go 1200m/s with 4xY-S8's. Sure it drains some cap, but when you're fighting pirate drones with short range weapons, they can't even touch you. And with a couple of levels in Afterburners or a cap flux you'll gain cap faster than the AB's use it, and if you're using projectiles and missiles, then cap for anything else isn't really an issue since you're not getting hit anyways.

If you're going the standard 215 m/s + navigation against 350+ m/s frigates and confused as to why they're getting into close range, ... well, you shouldn't be.

The same thing with the higher damage ammo. If you're using it in long range guns, strive to keep them chasing you at your optimal range, that way they're not moving laterally. That's what's going to kill your accuracy, if they're chasing you and they're close, then you'll still be able to hit them.

If you're using close range guns like the autocannons, I'd say the best thing for you to do is to slow them down. Strap on a webifier, if they're going 40 m/s it's not hard to get them in the 700m + falloff range, then you can orbit them.

But really the close range IMHO are more anti-frigate weapons. But used against missile boats or cruisers they're not bad when combined with a webifier or a smartbomb.

Tactics are definitely changed.

I don't know much pvp but if you're too far out of range you can't warp scramble, so your prey can run away. If you're using high range ammo you're not going to kill your prey before they notice, and if they want to run they can. If you're in scramble range you're also prone to being webifiyied yourself. Which means you're vulnerable to close range weapons if you're using long range weapons. Thus in a short range setup you're at an advantage in a 1v1 situation. If you're fired on from long range you can escape. If you get to close range vs a long range fighter, you have the upper hand.

Of course, when you're outnumbered, the longer rnage weapons work in your favor since you can keep out of range of your opponents, as long as you've got capacitor.



Edited by: Zeidrich on 04/07/2003 04:51:32

Edited by: Zeidrich on 04/07/2003 04:52:01

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:16:00 - [5]
 

Good comments only a few things niggle at me:

<< Your loadout is flawed. You are equiped to fight cruisers but not frigates. If you are going to hunt frigates use the faster tracking guns. You have all medium weapons with slow tracking. You will have a hard time hitting frigates with those. >>

220 Vulcans have a lower tracking that 200mm autocannons definately. They track about half as fast. However I find putting frigate weapons on a cruiser to be somewhat of an oddity. The only frigate defense availible to cruisers is frigate weapons? That doesn't compute.

<< Or put on some afterburners. 2 Y-S8 or LiF afterburners will let you keep any pirates at optimal range. I have a standard AB and 1 Y-S8 on my moa, and I have a slow arsed caldari ship for chrissake. I go more than fast enough to keep out of range. >>

Out of slots. Midslots on stabbers are 3. Minmatar cruisers got stuck on the short end for mids. And my mids are actually being utilized to keep me alive :P

<< The same thing with the higher damage ammo. If you're using it in long range guns, strive to keep them chasing you at your optimal range, that way they're not moving laterally. That's what's going to kill your accuracy, if they're chasing you and they're close, then you'll still be able to hit them.

If you're using close range guns like the autocannons, I'd say the best thing for you to do is to slow them down. Strap on a webifier, if they're going 40 m/s it's not hard to get them in the 700m + falloff range, then you can orbit them. >>

The problem is the lack of a good medium sized anti-frigate weapon. 220 Vulcans have a miniscule damage penalty but are hurt by their tracking ability. A cruiser should have a weapon capable of tracking frigates. Because by fitting such a weapon, they're restricting themselves to close combat with that gun. And making themselves vulnerable in Cruiser vs Cruiser fights.

I've completely trashed the high damage ammo because the penalties for projectiles is too high, even with the use of tracking mods and skills. Loading emp or phased plasma into a 220mm Vulcan is suicidal. At that range, it's more cost effective to use smartbombs.

I did a semi-test earlier today. You know the loadout. 2 angel hijackers. 1 I engaged solely with the 2 220 vulcans. The other I used only a small plasma smartbomb on. The smartbomb destroyed its target almost 3 times as fast, even with a 9 second recycle. It's not viable however as a small smartbomb only has a 3k range. Missile using pirates seem to stray no closer than 3.5km unless outmaneuvered.

I lost that stabber to Guristas. 1 Gurista Terrorist and 4 Wreckers. While I was able to soak a large amount of damage the fighter swarm finished off my ship. Missiles I was able to handle with no problem (smartbomb). But being unable to eliminate a frigate screen when you're in their face is highly annoying. Especially when carrying close combat weaponry

Revolution
Amarr
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:33:00 - [6]
 

i mounted 4 650 scouts with photon(ex-dual 425s) and one 425mm scout ac with emp for killing cruisers with frigate escort, worked fine for me :)


Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.04 07:56:00 - [7]
 

<< i mounted 4 650 scouts with photon(ex-dual 425s) and one 425mm scout ac with emp for killing cruisers with frigate escort, worked fine for me :) >>

That's the problem. CCP changed everything according to "Scout" performance.


 

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