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Gauss
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.03 19:47:00 - [31]
 

Yeah soul reaver. NPC pirates move directly towards you, first of all. There is no transverse movement. I think those 650 scouts have an optimal range of 10km and a falloff of 25km. Im not sure if this means their maximum effective range is 35km or what. Anyway, it seems like maybe they didn't record the numbers correctly in the get info window. They should just increase the optimal range and make artillery the long-range bombardment weapon it was probably meant to be. What damage do you do to those pirates at the optimal range?


Cyrus Troy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.03 19:48:00 - [32]
 

Guass, I think your leaving a big number out of your calculation. As was posted earlier, if you approch a ship, you not only have your tracking speed on your gun, but you also have the agility on your ship to add in! Your ship can track the target and keep it from moving out of your guns sites. I don't have the numbers of all the possible skills, and ship mods that you can load, but I'm sure a cruiser can track a frigate going up to 500 m/s if you head directly towards your target.

Ofcourse, as your math showed, the closer he gets, the harder they are to track. (oops, does that mean there are some tactics now :( ahhhh, snifff, yah, tac**** are for carebares and nurfers) hmmmmmm... I guess cruisers and battleships will have to THINK about who they might be fighting. Maybe they might have to have 1 or 2 small class weapons loaded with high tracking speed for knife fighting. F$*&#@ tactics!!!

Edited by: Cyrus Troy on 03/07/2003 19:49:57

Edited by: Cyrus Troy on 03/07/2003 19:51:06

JR BobDobbs
Posted - 2003.07.03 20:00:00 - [33]
 

Gauss: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That is all.

Gauss
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.03 20:08:00 - [34]
 

Cyrus, yeah I already addressed that. Read the thread. I don't think they take into account ship agility in targeting. Otherwise, you'd probably see a higher tracking speed when the gun was equipped.

I think agility only comes into play in determining whether a target ship manages to evade a bullet.

And yeah, there were tactics before in keeping at optimal range and whatnot, and there's more now and that's good.

I don't think anyone has shown more effective use of battle tactics than moo. I don't know why you think that "ooh now you have to use tactics" is an effective taunt.

Vachir
Posted - 2003.07.03 20:25:00 - [35]
 

Has it been said anywhere what these numbers actually mean in terms of gameplay? Obviously they are not using a realistic physics model as you can turn your ship around 180 degrees and not have to wait for your turrets to realign before they can fire again.

Since these numbers must just be thrown into the hit/miss calculator one way or another, the only way to derive their actual meaning is to run tests and parse data. Assuming the log function works you should be able to do some test firing on stationary and various moving targets, along with applying tracking enhancers to figure out just how much of a difference in hit rate tracking actually makes (as well as if relative velocity vs. actual velocity actually means something).

AndyDufrane
Aliastra
Posted - 2003.07.03 20:30:00 - [36]
 

Gaus, by saying there is no transverse movement aren't you assuming that the target and shooting are both heading directly towards or away from each other? So if I'm fling perpendicular or away from a target at an angle, isn't that transverse movement? That guy that posted his actual results didn't say if he was flying directly at the pirates, or crossing them at an angle... so how can those results be so easily discounted?

Also, pirate ships don't always fly directly towards or away from their targets. At least, Arch Engravers don't.

Singular
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.07.03 20:33:00 - [37]
 

"Has it been said anywhere what these numbers actually mean in terms of gameplay? Obviously they are not using a realistic physics model as you can turn your ship around 180 degrees and not have to wait for your turrets to realign before they can fire again. "

Of course they are not lol. Your ship is a point and a Vector. You are represented as a point (coordinate), direction, and magnitude.

I highly doubt that they are using any hard core floating point math in combat lol. Im sure they are rounding up and down, doing some basic transormations at MOST to get the result. Anything more would not be practical in terms of server load.

Pie, Sin, Cos, Tan -- not in the equation fellers (well, unless they are using LUT's, who knows).

Gauss
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2003.07.03 20:40:00 - [38]
 

I can only assume that he was heading pretty close to directly at them, since he listed his steps and was like "Ok 40km, now 35km, now 30km, now 25km, combat over.." so he closed pretty fast.

Demangel
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.03 21:38:00 - [39]
 

To gauss, Actually your right I onl;y ready your main post (sorry been up 24 hours now).

But I still fully beleive your wrong, Basically not that your lying, or anything like that, but just wrong.

It could naturaly turn out that I am wrong and that you need to get an extra .001 tracking speed.

But lets go over a few other basic points shall we?

Projectile guns are NOT meant to shoot as far, as hybrids for the same damage or accuracy.

Some people report however that they STILL (the 650 Scout I think) shoot farther for more damage than the best hybrid out there.

This isn't first hand so I can't back it up though.

Essentially for mid range and close ranges, projectiles are meant to be the bomb, and they are meant to be somewhat effective at range if you use the arty guns...

Hybrids are meant to be the masters of ultra close and come in second only to lasers in terms of range... SOOOooooo They track better... Whats more you can STILL hit farther than I can with a 650 scout I think, the farthest away I have gotten a hit with my 250MM (standard), is about 15KM and yes thats with Antimatter on a lucky shot, naturaly I could do better with Iron... but the damage may or may not be worth it depending on what I'm shooting at and how far we spawn in from one another.

If your simply asking for the best projectile weapon to EQUAL the best hybrid, then well... I don't know what to say, mainly because BOTH are probably SUPPOSED to be equaly is good, but only when used as intended.

Your gun doesn't use cap, mine does. Thus your trade off might be slower tracking? your gun does more potential damage, your trade off is ammo? ETC ETC.

I'm not resisting the weapons being balanced, here, I just need more evidance than some fancy numbers and your word that you tested it on Chaos Last night before the patch of all places.

Try it on Tranq a few dozen times, see if you can figure out how the gun is SUPPOSED to be used, remember you can fit more things than I can due to the guns lower fitting requirements, hyrbids must then have SOME advantage to make up for this shouldn't they?

If both guns did identicle damage at identicle ranges but yours was easier to fit and took less cap to fire...
which gun would you choose? The one you have already of course.

Try fitting all kinds of fancy modules with the same number of hybrids as you have 640 scouts, see just how many of them you can fit. Then ask yourself, isn't that worth a few less damage per second due to tracking ETC?

As for the jackass who called me a liar, if your problem stems from the fact that I called it a 650MM arty and not a scout, please forgive me for being human and awake for 25 hours straight and slightly iritable from all the people who have a hard time debating and simply whine and cry and ***** and moan.

Heres a tip, from now on instead of imediately assuming people are LIARS, why not point out that the 650MM standard Arty might/probably not do that kind of damage ETC.

Ask me for clarification... Calling me a liar is simply silly.

Now if your calling my friend a liar, I suppose thats a possibility hehehehe but more likely he might have exaggerated as people tend to do...

You know: I caught a fish <---------> big?

Anyway Gauss, I apologize for not adressing your most recent post in my post... you've at least been fairly civilized in your debate here thus far, even with what seems like most of the people here doggedly against you.

I also apologize for being cranky ;) BUT I still disagree :P

I'll see if I can't get myself a few more skill levels of medium projectile and buy myself one of the 650MM scouts myself and give it a whirl.

And so help you if it's still a better weapon overal hehehe.

Iwanna Spanking
Posted - 2003.07.03 21:49:00 - [40]
 

Why are you people even arguing with him?

Someone took away his favorite cookie. That he ALWAYS ate. EVERY dessert. ANY restaurant.

It doesn't matter that there are other cookies and candies and look--cake!--in the box. It doesn't matter that there may once again be the same cookie again in the future (just as the prior mechanics weren't final; this patch isn't necessarily inviolable and not going to see further tweaks).

All that matters is right now YOU TOOK HIS COOKIE.

Take away a 3 year olds cookie and you're going to get a tantrum, plain and simple. <shrug> Its Just What They Do (TM).

I'd suggest hugging him, but he's had a bad experience with stuffed animals and cuddling in his past somewhere and always rants about bears. Better off just letting him snivel until he gets over it and gets hungry for something else.

Edited by: Iwanna Spanking on 03/07/2003 21:51:50

Presidio
Minmatar
Phantom Squad
Posted - 2003.07.09 07:55:00 - [41]
 

I stopped my ship, I fired 20 shots at a stationary target, an abbandoned station 15KM away, missed 7 times.

Went back to my station recycled my 650MM artys and now using hybrids :P

radius/second unit on weapons is just a value that sets the probability of an "excellent" hit. Their formula has nothing to do with the real life phisycs.

Excellent post though Gauss.

Jash Illian
Minmatar
Light Brigade Industries L.L.C.
Posted - 2003.07.09 08:19:00 - [42]
 

<< radius/second unit on weapons is just a value that sets the probability of an "excellent" hit. Their formula has nothing to do with the real life phisycs. >>

Actually, radian/sec on guns has everything to do with the physics in game. If you want to see it in action, orbit a cruiser in a frigate at 500m. If the cruiser isn't using short range weapons and your agility allows for a tight enough turn, the cruiser will barely hit you.

Increase the range to 5km. The cruiser will begin hitting more because you're ship is moving slower laterally in relation to the turrets than at 1km.

Orbit at 10km. Start calling your insurance agent. Go out any further and your insurance agent will call you.

People's perceptions are skewed by the rather dumb AI on the pirates. They don't manuever at all. Straight beeline approach. However in PvP, tracking is everything against a smart opponent.

Lola
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.09 09:18:00 - [43]
 

What saddens me is that TomB is the guy who's been working on the balancing and he's on vacation. He's a really cool guy and very open to suggestions. I'm sure he'd love to read this thread and shed some light on this subject if he weren't enjoying some fruity drink in a coconut on some sandy beach somewhere ( or whatever he does on vacation ). It's also too bad this is too deep of a question to ask at that Dev chat coming up Saturday. Oh well, I'm going back to my ultimate PvP game of death:

http://www.wishbear.net/index.php
PWNAGE!!!!!!

OldNeb


Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.09 09:23:00 - [44]
 

Greetings,

This thread raised the interest of one of our BugHunters, who asked for following to be posted upon his behalf:

Quote:

Most of the times in EVE are measured in milliseconds, so I think that
your calculations are a factor of 1000 off of the mark.

(2*Pi)/0.00575 = 1092.7 ms

That means that the time required for a 650mm Art (no mods) to turn a
full 360° is 1.0927 seconds, not 1092.7 seconds (18 mins and 12 seconds).
Quote:


Demangel
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.09 09:30:00 - [45]
 

And a hush falls over the crowd... :)

Oh and maybe I'm just asking for trouble from the math wizes here but uhm:

(2*Pi)/0.00575 = 1092.7 ms

this is incorrect.. the ACTUAL MS is 1092.1739 MS rounded to 1092.2 maybe heheh... Least thats what my calculator said :), so it's even FASTER than the bug hunter says it is hehehe.

*ducks the slander of people who will now call him an uber nerd for actually busting out the calculator to check CCP bug hunter math*

Wait a second... If I'm right here, I'm actually nervous now! Maybe this is why we get so many bugs!? J/K

Ok I'll leave now... Flame on!

Edited by: Demangel on 09/07/2003 09:34:49

OldNeb


Doomheim
Posted - 2003.07.09 09:46:00 - [46]
 

Quote:

Demangel:
(2*Pi)/0.00575 = 1092,7278795094933003348324811407
(2*3.14)/0.00575 = 1092,1739130434782608695652173913

Quote:



Edited by: Nebulai on 09/07/2003 09:47:05

Damon Vile
Amarr
AUS Corporation
CORE.
Posted - 2003.07.09 09:49:00 - [47]
 

Not having any math to back me up :)
The guns work fine in game. Even when the pirate is 2k away and orbiting you they still hit about 50% of the time. Not bad considering it's artilery.

The guns fall off is 24k ( I think?? ) its most effective range is from 7k-20k. With no equipment mods it hits about 50-75 damage with a sabot round after the shields are down.

I've had the guns about 5 days now and don't see any need to change the gun...maybe they just need to fix the info. Well the 20 rounds kinda sucks 40 would be alot better :)

Athule Snanm
Amarr
Rien Ici
Posted - 2003.07.09 09:55:00 - [48]
 

Frankly, if there's a heavy damage dealing weapon with the name 'artillery' in the game that can't be used as an uber fast-tracking assault weapon then I'm all for it. To me 'artillery' should be effective against stationary or very slow moving objects - or why call it artillery?

Have fun
Finn

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2003.07.09 10:10:00 - [49]
 

"That means that the time required for a 650mm Art (no mods) to turn a
full 360° is 1.0927 seconds, not 1092.7 seconds (18 mins and 12 seconds)."


No offence to anyone involved, but if this is correct then those values are pretty ridiculous. They'd mean the heavy artillery turret can swing around so fast, it's able to keep up perfectly with a ship orbitting it at the speed of 350 m/s until this orbit has the radius of less than 55 m...

Demangel
Gallente
Posted - 2003.07.09 10:42:00 - [50]
 

LOL Ahem I thought we basically made it clear that tracking speeds are more or less arbitrary values to give us the players a point of reference?

IE isn't it obvious that eve doesn't use a realistic physics/combat model? LOL

Oh well... No offense intended to anyone as always :)

Korben Dallas
Gallente
Fredom Fighters
Posted - 2003.07.09 11:08:00 - [51]
 

you calculations are accurate enough gauss, but you ignore the fact that you could have more than one attacker. You also ignore the effect of any modules you may be able to use.

That opens up all sorts of possibilities as to how to attack.

I for one am glad its harder do gate camp and now impossible to drop 100's of canisters to create lag.

It shouldnt be possible to down a ship within a few seconds. else you'll be left in the server on your own with other player PVP obsessed ppl.

Edited by: Korben Dallas on 09/07/2003 11:08:55

Ulendar
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2003.07.09 11:35:00 - [52]
 

I use artiliry all the time...

Even worse...

I use STANDARD artiliry..

I hit things just fine with my 650mm at 8km and sometimes at 5km...but that gets hard. And this is not against static things but against fast moving frigates...

Even though the doing the math on this will tell you that projectiles are absolutly worthless...

It is not so in-game...more factors then just math play their role here. I know for sure there is a hit dice factor involved AND i think there is also and amount of 'luck' your char can have (could be based on atributes or skills) but im not at all sure about this...just guissing really.

Anyways...all in all im a fairly happy projectile user. The low cap drain allows me to run other defense and offensive modules full time, wich make up for the slow rof and tracking.

Im pretty sure i got an advantage over nrg turrets with my range and hybreds hit really bad when you move outside optimal (and with the right setup on your cruiser using proj your doing fine 25+ km)

Eventhough the hits arent quite as hard as a hybred user within optimal range atleast your HITTING him outside optimal...wich cant be sayd from the hybred guns...hybred=get within optimal or be screwed...projectile gives you a bit more flexibilitie..

Imho the full potential of a projectile weapon RARELY surfaces...you can see this in those very rare perfect hit or wrecking hit wich top off at 250+ damage with non penalised ammo. Using projectiles your only hitting for 1/3 of the potential damage most of the time. Hybreds are diferent, once your in optimal your hitting for about 70% of the potential on average.

With this new patch i think ALOT of balance issues have been fixed and ALOT of room for tactics has opened up and this is one of the major reasons why i love the latest patch.

Anyone who thinks he will do well with projectiles is you stay within optimal will be very disapointed! In my expirience your much better off staying at about 40% of the optimal + fall off range. This will always get you the best results on proj...any further and youl hit for very little...any closer and youl have a hard time hitting at all.

This is my expirience with projectiles.

Nightwing
Posted - 2003.07.09 11:54:00 - [53]
 

I use 650 scouts all the time, got 4 of em on my MOA loaded to the gills with EMP. I do a lot of 30-50K pirate hunting and have no problem taking then out at 20-30K range MUCH faster than 8 minutes each... (more like less than 1)

Try it, you will be suprised. At 30K get Wrecking hits for 3-400 and normal hits for 80 or so. Best hit since patch 1105 using a 650 scout and EMP ammo was at 42Km for 454 damage. Of course having a 6.78x damage modifier helps a lot (4.5 sec refire, 4 guns, ZERO cap usage)

I have also noticed that you get a LOT more hits while approaching them directly.

Real Poison
Minmatar
Stormlord Battleforce
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2003.07.09 12:01:00 - [54]
 

i am using 4* 650 scout's on my rupture. when i'm hunting 30k-50k pirates it takes me about 1.5to3 minutes to take out a cruiser (no missiles used).

surely the prepatch 425mm's were better. but the new 650's are still nice weapons. you just need to find out how they have to be used correctly.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2003.07.09 12:15:00 - [55]
 

We did extensive combat tests yesterday night (with battleships involved). No need to worry the game is actually quite well balanced and if desired you can steal pack a heavy punch. Itīs the mix that makes the trick. Those who say the game/weapons got nerfed beyond reason is just ****ed because CCP took their "press button and kill in 5 seconds game".
Additionally all the talk about "people getting away easy due to long fights" is nothing but crap. Those who say this are either shortsighted or donīt use the opportunities they have (cause they canīt or donīt want to adapt). Getting away is NOT easy when youīre fighting against someone who knows his machine.

And uhm... no offense to anyone but if youīd spend more time playing the game than calculating all this stuff you would have seen that all this talk about the 650-tracking speed isnīt true :)


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