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Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.09.08 09:50:00 - [1]
 

Someone mentioned that this whole affair of Incarna have striking similarities to Star Wars Galaxies NGE. How it was done and the purposes of it. What was planned and how it all failed.

It was haunting me all along and I decided to do some research to see if there really is any similarities.

SWG NGE closing down December 2011 behind the scenes

My research took a few hours of reading but above link sums it all up with all the necessary links to developers explanations, apologies and regrets for what was done.

What stroke me is not similarities. Is exact same one to one steps done by CCP with Incarna as it was done by SoE when NGE was released. CCP employees at first banned people on forums and in game. Attempted to put names and accuse of things. Call players "vocal minority". Kept and continue to keep silence about most of player base concerns and release "patches" that does not patch what players want to be fixed, instead adding useless for current player base things. Promise things but no intention to implement these seen anywhere.

What SoE want to reach with their NGE is to change the player base. They knew these 200 000 that played the game back then will go and hope that they will be replaced with a lot more others. SoE SWG NGE team leader admitted that was the plan. It didn't happen. And SWG closing this year. After 5 years of marketing attempts to bring back old and acquire new players. All failed and Sony Entertainment (SoE) swore never to change games in live but instead release new games if need be.

Research it all yourself if you want. It's not similarities. It's exactly the same things that CCP does with Incarna following steps done by SoE to Star Wars Galaxies with release of NGE "update". A game that is widely acknowledged most groundbreaking failure in history of MMO industry and shuts down December 15 2011.

Jackson Brown
Posted - 2011.09.08 11:56:00 - [2]
 

CCP fail.

Alissa Solette
Posted - 2011.09.08 12:29:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Alissa Solette on 08/09/2011 12:29:54
It's called "learning from past experience". Not a very new concept.. but seemingly too much to hope for when you look at CCP management.

What I find particularly hilarious is that CCP really thinks this will work for EVE... I mean, if a company like SoE (with a bigger marketing budget per year then CCP has earned in total since 2003) can't bait enough customers to play WOW with Star Wars skin then I'm sure the same tactic will work perfectly with a much smaller marketing budget and a niche game like EVE that everyone knows is totally compatible with the masses of WOW-kiddies.

It's so ****ing ******ed it's not even funny any more.

You have a perfectly good little game with a stable subscriber base of 50-70k people that are willing to put up with the dismal quality of the product, non-existent customer support and all the technical issues that plague us since 5 years but noooo, that's not enough. You need to expand by ****ing over said 50-70k customers and destroying your loyal customer base to replace them with people who's IQ is so low that they're willing to pay 70$ for a pair of virtual pants. Do you really think those customers will stay with you for 10 years and get their friends and family hooked to your virtual Barbie doll simulator? Or is it not much more likely for them to leave and go play some other game where they can fulfil their cross-dressing needs for less money and with actual game content (because let's face it - Incarna is a closet that you can walk around in and will remain that way for at least an other two years)?

I simply don't understand this strategy. Sounds like the kind of crap that only a (bad) economist or (worthless) marketing quack would ever come up with tbh. Which, incidentally, is probably the case if you look at CCP management in the last few years.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2011.09.08 12:35:00 - [4]
 

You're wrong.

Key reasons:

1) No one wanted the NGE.

2) People Wanted Incarna

3) The NGE FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED THE GAME.

4) Eve Onlines core gameplay is exactly the same as it was before Incarna

5) Incarna came out unfinished and useless because it was apparently rushed out with zero relevant features just because CCP loves shiny useless ****.

6) If Incarna had been given some damn game play value people would have actually liked it.

7) CCP somehow failed what could have been there most POPULAR expansion that god only knows how many people were waiting for.

Ejit
Amarr
STD contractors
Posted - 2011.09.08 12:36:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane

2) People Wanted Incarna


Whatever gave you that impression?

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.09.08 12:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ejit
Originally by: Sader Rykane

2) People Wanted Incarna


Whatever gave you that impression?


A bunch of people really did want incarna. We just didn't want the NEX store.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.09.08 13:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Myxx
A bunch of people really did want incarna. We just didn't want the NEX store.


A bunch of people really did want more action in SWG. They just didn't want the NGE .

It's not the point Myxx. Take a look at the OP and linked information. Then remember what was going on in here for last 3 month. Oh that includes "shiny new forums". SoE did that too. :-)

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2011.09.08 14:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
Originally by: Myxx
A bunch of people really did want incarna. We just didn't want the NEX store.


A bunch of people really did want more action in SWG. They just didn't want the NGE .

It's not the point Myxx. Take a look at the OP and linked information. Then remember what was going on in here for last 3 month. Oh that includes "shiny new forums". SoE did that too. :-)


Huh? "More action?"

What are you talking about, there was plenty of Action Pre NGE.

The NGE changed game mechanics, it was nearly a completly different game. It didn't add "more action".


Incarna changed the hanger, but the core gameplay of eve is exactly the same.

Your analogy makes no sense.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.09.08 14:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Alex Sinai
Originally by: Myxx
A bunch of people really did want incarna. We just didn't want the NEX store.


A bunch of people really did want more action in SWG. They just didn't want the NGE .

It's not the point Myxx. Take a look at the OP and linked information. Then remember what was going on in here for last 3 month. Oh that includes "shiny new forums". SoE did that too. :-)


Huh? "More action?"

What are you talking about, there was plenty of Action Pre NGE.

The NGE changed game mechanics, it was nearly a completly different game. It didn't add "more action".


Incarna changed the hanger, but the core gameplay of eve is exactly the same.

Your analogy makes no sense.


Read the OP and linked information. Remember all what happened in past 3 month and continue to happen including the "Shiny new forums". Including subscription fallout. Including flatlined data. Including all what happens. Similar? No.

Same.

Tom Gerard
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.09.08 15:26:00 - [10]
 

New Forums lack Zazz

Orlacc
Posted - 2011.09.08 15:42:00 - [11]
 

Having been there, Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. As for SWG closing, it's because Lucas has an IP exclusive with Bioware for SWOTR. Incarna is cosmetic, and believe it or not was requested by players.

Nice try.

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.09.08 16:28:00 - [12]
 

guys you're not debating on the same things xD

Sader Rykane is saying that NGE and incarna are not really the same thing
while people answer him that it's mostly the actions of CCP / SoE after the drama that are similar

Nimrel
Caldari
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.09.08 18:15:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Nimrel on 08/09/2011 18:37:39
Incarna is not NGE. When NGE came out, they rewrote the fundamental rules of combat -- think if missiles now did 25% damage but also acted like a 50% webber. They rewrote the definition of classes -- think if you spent all your time skilling Battleships but now you could only fly cruisers. They dumbed down the gameplay -- like what if instead of having all these permutations of weapons and fittings, now you would buy a Drake and it came with 5 missile launchers built-in and only did kinetic damage.

And worst of all, they previously had an arbitrary, painfully long, partially random path to Jedi that most game players had been grinding for like 2 years that they suddenly dropped and let anyone roll a new character as a Jedi, invalidating all the grind that almost all the player-base had been masochistically slogging through. For example, what if suddenly they let you roll a new player that could fly Titans or Motherships and gave you one for free when you completed the tutorial.

Messing up a 'bunkroom in a station' and throwing some poorly concealed greed and misdirection at your players is nowhere near the same level of indignity.

Ironically, I was really looking forward to Incarna because I was hoping it would bring what imho was SWG's strongest feature. SWG was as much an 'avatar chatroom' as it was a game, with phenomenal ability to customize your environment (personal house, player created towns, etc.) and a great social environment in which to interact with your friends. Many hardcore SWG players ended up 'playing the metagame' more than the actual game, much like Eve in a way. Sadly, Incarna delivered nothing in this area when it arrived. I'm hopeful that eventually we'll still see something like this emerge, hopefully combined with some form of 'POS that feels like a home'.

The end result was that they alienated close to 100% of the current player base of a mature game and didn't manage to pick up a significant number of new players -- due in large part to the huge volume of negative gaming press that resulted from the alienation.

While they did this, it was on top of a game that never really got debugged and in which they continually added new buggy features while ignoring the existing problems. I'm not talking about 'design issues' or such, but solid, visible, 100% reproducible every time bugs. For example, I was a Carbineer class and I had special moves for my weapon that never worked, ever, in the history of the game. The background to NGE was that there were hundreds of these bugs, enough to make sure every player was annoyed by at least a few of them, but SOE continued to pile buggy feature on buggy feature rather than address the quality issues already present in their game. CCP introduces bugs pretty frequently in their releases, but they're also quite good at fixing most of them within a few days or weeks as well.

James Razor
Amarr
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.09.08 18:20:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Orlacc
Having been there, Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. As for SWG closing, it's because Lucas has an IP exclusive with Bioware for SWOTR. Incarna is cosmetic, and believe it or not was requested by players.

Nice try.


What we wanted was the stuff shown in the future vision trailer. What we got is a rusty hole of a quarter ( i am amarrian, i dont like rust tbh). My toilet looks better than the entire CQ and it has way better lightening.

But i think the OP was more refering to what CCP did about the player rage, which was not just about Incarna and the resource eating and buggy CQ, but about the NEX Store and the assumptions that we wear 1000$ jeans. And it was especially fueled by the internal communication leaked where we all have been called cash cows.

And Hilmar directly saying that they wont listen to us and just look what we are doing are the reason why people now leave as fast as their subscriptions run out. I'll be gone myself at the end of next sunday.

Effortless Breeze
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.09.08 18:34:00 - [15]
 

Haven't you been paying attention?

Every expansion, patch, dev blog is the sign of the NGE

Nimrel
Caldari
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.09.08 18:44:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Effortless Breeze
Haven't you been paying attention?

Every expansion, patch, dev blog is the sign of the NGE


I don't agree really, but I guess it's in your POV. I took at two year break from the game and just came back a few months ago. On one side, I can see why many people would be upset -- the game was fundamentally the same from when I left with relatively few changes. I left just after W-Space was added and scanning was improved.

In my opinion, the few changes they did make over those 24 months were minor improvements -- things like simplifying mission types, improving the graphics in mining, reduction in lag for common gameplay. But yeah, it certainly seems like that was a lot of subscription money that came in over two years and went...somewhere. I don't think CCP's been very secret about the fact that they've been shuttling off Eve Online money to fund other projects, so I guess you need to ask if $15/mo is worth the game you have installed. To me at least it is.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.09.08 18:55:00 - [17]
 

Lets not forget that Incarna is nearly 10% complete. Tbh I was looking forward to it too. I liked the trailer much more then actual thing.

I referred primarily to CCP handling of entire Incarna affair and to possible dangers of Incarna becoming NGE since what we see is far from complete version of it and it already sparked fierce protests and unsubs. NGE was complete when released. Actions of both companies after release look strikingly similar.

And in the link there not only information about but also link to NGE TL admitting that what they tried to do is to change player base and cater to more WoW style players. These similarities are horrifying.

James Razor
Amarr
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.09.08 19:05:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
Lets not forget that Incarna is nearly 10% complete. Tbh I was looking forward to it too. I liked the trailer much more then actual thing.

I referred primarily to CCP handling of entire Incarna affair and to possible dangers of Incarna becoming NGE since what we see is far from complete version of it and it already sparked fierce protests and unsubs. NGE was complete when released. Actions of both companies after release look strikingly similar.

And in the link there not only information about but also link to NGE TL admitting that what they tried to do is to change player base and cater to more WoW style players. These similarities are horrifying.


CCP does basicly the same. As most old eve veterans will give nothing on internet barbies. They want SPACESHIPS and spaceship related content. I just loged once into EveGate as well to change the security settings so that no one can see my stuff, which is another thing that they managed to **** people off with. And the next thing is, they promised us a lot more than they could ever deliver.

I expected a 100% Fully working station inviroment with MORE and not less functionality, a open bazar like market place, meeting rooms for corps, sight seeing stuff, etc for the expansion called INCARNA. Because this was what i was promised.

But i didnt even get an Amarrian Captains Quarters and tbh.: I've seen better graphics years before that did cost way less resources. FFS, i run a 9800 GTX+ and can just so run CQ on full settings. And it looks horrible.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.08 19:34:00 - [19]
 

The game experience started changing with The Great Nano Nerf and proliferation of jump bridges, jump freighters, capitols for everyone, supercaps for superpowers. It's a combination of game altering things that add up to NGE over period of time.

This Incarna thing is nothing. It doesn't effect the game in any significant way. It does show the grand delusion of CCP management, but it does not change the main game balance.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.09.09 06:12:00 - [20]
 

Incarna roll out only on 10% ready status and we see shop which CCP said they "have no plans for". We almost saw Ishukone Battleship in that shop but CCP hid it when all Hell broke loose. It sparked mass protests and unsubs. Company behaved very similar to SoE in dealing with it.

SoE NGE was 100% full when deployed.
CCP Incarna is 10% ready when deployed.
That's all the difference so far.

Ovella
Posted - 2011.09.09 07:43:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
Incarna roll out only on 10% ready status and we see shop which CCP said they "have no plans for". We almost saw Ishukone Battleship in that shop but CCP hid it when all Hell broke loose. It sparked mass protests and unsubs. Company behaved very similar to SoE in dealing with it.

SoE NGE was 100% full when deployed.
CCP Incarna is 10% ready when deployed.
That's all the difference so far.
And it's the only time where CCP's habbit of releasing unfinished content and forgeting it for good new shinies came in handy Smile

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.09 07:51:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 09/09/2011 07:51:29
Originally by: Myxx
Originally by: Ejit
Originally by: Sader Rykane

2) People Wanted Incarna


Whatever gave you that impression?


A bunch of people really did want incarna. We just didn't want the NEX store.


We do not have incarna anyways. Just a solo walk in 1 quarter, with an overpriced store

:excellence:

Ashalin Tora
Single Sun
Posted - 2011.09.09 09:01:00 - [23]
 

Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE, which completely ruined every single factor of a game which was to many perfect.

They're introducing a new side to the game, a side that has been requested for years. Instead of implementing all at once, they're taking a few steps at a time and the steps will hopefully become bigger with each step that is taken. This remains to be seen and patience is a virtue.

If CCP wanted to introduce "NGE" to EVE Online, they'd remove every single ship that isn't a T1 frigate, a T1 cruiser or a T1 battleship. Then they'd remove Minmatar for good measure and at the same time remove any penalties for dying. They'd limit every character to a predetermined 6 million skillpoints and then they would spit in your face and torch your house.

Jane Philby
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.09.09 09:15:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Jane Philby on 09/09/2011 09:17:13
CCP would also keep the forums clean from any single post, about criticising them and people leaving the game cause of the new patch.
And alot of people that want their money back for the expansion they preordered 1-2 Month before the patch.

mmh if incarna would have been nge, there wont be no more armor shield/hull. only 1 healthbar for your ship.
And your weapons wont shoot automaticaly. you have to click every time you want to shoot. iirc


 

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