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blankseplocked Is the EULA legally binding in your country?
 
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Lei Adama
Posted - 2011.09.07 16:55:00 - [1]
 

the EULA isn't even legal in some countries. It's what is refered to as a shrink wrapped contract. Which is why even them big arse game shops who claim if the seal is broken you can't return, haven't ever been able to stop me returning a game.

Any contract that requires you to hand over cash before you can read it isn't legal. And for that reason it is also illegal for any retailer to refuse you a refund if you don't agree to any terms of the EULA. The only time there is a get out clause is if the entire EULA is available online, but then they have to prove you have the internet before refusing a refund.

Were you aware of this? Do you have anything to add that some people may not be aware of, that is covered under the EULA but actually isn't legal.

Jerry Attrick
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2011.09.07 17:03:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Lei Adama
the EULA isn't even legal in some countries. It's what is refered to as a shrink wrapped contract. Which is why even them big arse game shops who claim if the seal is broken you can't return, haven't ever been able to stop me returning a game.

Any contract that requires you to hand over cash before you can read it isn't legal. And for that reason it is also illegal for any retailer to refuse you a refund if you don't agree to any terms of the EULA. The only time there is a get out clause is if the entire EULA is available online, but then they have to prove you have the internet before refusing a refund.

Were you aware of this? Do you have anything to add that some people may not be aware of, that is covered under the EULA but actually isn't legal.


you can read it before parting with a penny - here

http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp

If you are then happy with the content, you then carry on and play. Also, there is a clause that you accept that says any resolution to dispute will be carried out under Icelandic law.

BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
Posted - 2011.09.07 17:03:00 - [3]
 

Your an idiot.

You agreed to the terms of a contract between YOU and CCP when you hit the "I agree" button.

Montevius Williams
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.07 17:50:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Lei Adama
the EULA isn't even legal in some countries. It's what is refered to as a shrink wrapped contract. Which is why even them big arse game shops who claim if the seal is broken you can't return, haven't ever been able to stop me returning a game.

Any contract that requires you to hand over cash before you can read it isn't legal. And for that reason it is also illegal for any retailer to refuse you a refund if you don't agree to any terms of the EULA. The only time there is a get out clause is if the entire EULA is available online, but then they have to prove you have the internet before refusing a refund.

Were you aware of this? Do you have anything to add that some people may not be aware of, that is covered under the EULA but actually isn't legal.



lol, complaining just to complain eh?

Bubbles Udan
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:37:00 - [5]
 

ITT: 14 year old who has an online GED in law.

Hecatonis
Amarr
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:54:00 - [6]
 

i cant think of many games where you cannot find the EULA before you buy the game, so i think your point is moot.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.07 19:01:00 - [7]
 

The only reason EULA can exist as it does now is because the vast majority of players don't take it seriously, or even pay any attention to it.

If game companies really cared about encouraging some ethical behavior or properly informing the user, they wouldn't take EULA over half page long, with big text - and not write in ALL CAPS like some 12 year old angry kid.

Caladan Broood
Posted - 2011.09.07 19:28:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Caladan Broood on 07/09/2011 19:29:07
Originally by: Lei Adama
the EULA isn't even legal in some countries. It's what is refered to as a shrink wrapped contract. Which is why even them big arse game shops who claim if the seal is broken you can't return, haven't ever been able to stop me returning a game.

Any contract that requires you to hand over cash before you can read it isn't legal. And for that reason it is also illegal for any retailer to refuse you a refund if you don't agree to any terms of the EULA. The only time there is a get out clause is if the entire EULA is available online, but then they have to prove you have the internet before refusing a refund.

Were you aware of this? Do you have anything to add that some people may not be aware of, that is covered under the EULA but actually isn't legal.


If you are in the USA then you are sadly misinformed. The Supreme Court has already ruled on this and the verdict is that it is a legally binding contract. The reasoning is that it is widely known there are software licenses and terms contained within the program box. Sure you can't see them before you break the seal but you can read them before installing. If you don't agree to the terms before installing then your recourse is against the software maker to get the money back, not the retailer since they just facilitated the transaction.

Your argument regarding the retailer only applies to purchase of the product and whatever rules they have governing their return policy if they have one. They are 3rd part regarding the contract between you and the software maker. They do not have to return the item once you open it because you don't agree with the terms. That issue is outside your interaction with the retailer. They are only an intermediary party.

Next up you'll think that sending yourself a self stamped envelop with some code or written essay copy writes the work.Rolling Eyes

I do have my GED in law Razz

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.09.07 20:07:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jerry Attrick
Also, there is a clause that you accept that says any resolution to dispute will be carried out under Icelandic law.


This is completely irrelevant.

The only relevant thing is the local law.


Or why do you think that for example Samsung isn't applying such a clause with their tablets and choosing a country where they have no strict patent law in case of a dispute, thus avoiding the multi-billion lawsuits from Apple? Because such a clause is completely irrelevant.

Bubbles Udan
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.09.07 21:17:00 - [10]
 

...two different things.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.09.07 22:02:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lei Adama
...The only time there is a get out clause is if the entire EULA is available online, but then they have to prove you have the internet before refusing a refund...

Pretty sure even kangaroo courts in far away places will rule that a person who buys a MMORPG with the word "online" in its title does have access to the interwebzzz.

If your madness was real then we'd have seen tons of cases over the years .. which of course is not the case.
The only related one I can recall is two years back when a FPS game was sold without notice on box of internet requirement for install/play .. turned out to be a typo (used 'old' legal blurp on box)

Petra Katell
Pator Tech School
Posted - 2011.09.08 00:40:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: BuckStrider
Your an idiot.




My most favorite reply in all of the internets.

If you're under 18 and in the US, you can click accept all day to any EULA and it's meaningless.


Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.08 06:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Petra Katell
Originally by: BuckStrider
Your an idiot.




My most favorite reply in all of the internets.

If you're under 18 and in the US, you can click accept all day to any EULA and it's meaningless.




True, since as a minor you can't legally enter into contracts, but that also makes it true on the manufacturers side as well, they have no legal obligation to provide you the service either, no recourse for either end.

Bubbles Udan
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.09.08 06:45:00 - [14]
 

When you buy something at the store, that is a contract. How do minors shop? Wink

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.08 07:06:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Bubbles Udan
When you buy something at the store, that is a contract. How do minors shop? Wink


You're being provided a good, not a service, there is no binding contract on the exchange of standard consumer goods.

Bubbles Udan
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.09.08 08:18:00 - [16]
 

Minors buy services all the time, and even sell them! lol

This isn't something you're going to understand off of a forum post or browsing wikipedia, there is a reason lawyers make the big bucks advising people.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.09.08 09:17:00 - [17]
 

pretty sure a eula isn't legally binding in the Netherlands.

Caladan Broood
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:06:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Caladan Broood on 08/09/2011 20:08:10
Originally by: Petra Katell
Originally by: BuckStrider
Your an idiot.




My most favorite reply in all of the internets.

If you're under 18 and in the US, you can click accept all day to any EULA and it's meaningless.




Yes and no. Contracts with minors can be voidable by the minor himself, however, this only applies with contracts made by 2nd parties to minors knowing the 1st part is a minor. If a minor commits fraud (clicking that you are 18 when you are not) then the minor is liable for any damage and restitution, including billing for online game subscriptions.

So by clicking that you are 18 and agree to the terms the minor has committed fraud to induce the 2nd party into the agreement and will be held liable.

edit: A majority of the states have criminal statues on the books regarding minors deliberately doing this deed. Don't think just because you are a minor you get a free pass; the consequences you face can be both civil and criminal. Oh an additional benefit, your parents can also held liable for your actions.

Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:14:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Entity on 08/09/2011 20:18:54
Edited by: Entity on 08/09/2011 20:15:04
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
pretty sure a eula isn't legally binding in the Netherlands.


Afaik, in the Netherlands, you do not have to accept a EULA to use a work (software, or anything else) you legally obtained, because of an overriding law (copyright law, article 45j)
Obviously, you will lose out on any rights said license provides if you do not accept it.

In fact, our law would permit us to fix bugs in the EVE client thanks to the same article 45j, regardless of conditions in the EULA. Of course CCP has the right to refuse service to people that do that though. So basically, neither side can legally force the other.

Of course, because CCP controls the servers you play on, you're SOL if they choose to deny you service.

Edit: Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:33:00 - [20]
 

- These things aren't as black and white as people want to see them. It isn't all or nothing

- With contracts the nature, conditions, and circumstances at the time of agreement may influence which provisions of a generally valid contract will be upheld -- greater public policy goals will trumph contract provisions.

* no matter how evenly situated and well informed two parties to a contract might be, a "pound of flesh" provision (as in the shakespear play taming of the shrew ... demanding a portion of a persons body to be removed) for default just is not going to be upheld in 95% plus of industrialized countries .

* The relative bargaining position of two parties and the reasonableness of provisions as well as issues of more local written law will also often void provisions in otherwise valid contracts

--- example… Laws in many states that provide effective limits to the length and terms of “non-compete” clauses in contracts forbidding an employee from working for competitiors indefinitely into the future. There are quite a few elements involved with those rulings including the employer need etc, but a major element is the idea that an employer and a prospective employee looking to but bread on his table, are not bargaining from equal positions. The stuff is pretty gray though, A 3 year non-compete clause for new product design guru making mid six figures working patentable projects could very likely be upheld, a provision calling for a life time ban wouldn’t likely be upheld no mater what the ink said. A bank restricting $10 an hour tellers from working for another bank for even 6 months in the future would probably have that provision tossed out in many states.

• Adhesion contracts - whether or not a Eula is an adhesion contract is a matter of debate with some initial rulings suggesting that adhesion contract law should not apply to softwear Eulas in genral. The tradition of limitting open ended liablity taken on while making a trifling purchase and signing a related cotract on a take it or leave it basis will probably find some application in sentiment to the Eula field, even if it only a slight influence in shaping the new legal precendence that forms around Eula's . The similarty may raise or lower the bar of reasonableness.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:40:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 08/09/2011 21:51:26
Originally by: BuckStrider
Your an idiot.

You agreed to the terms of a contract between YOU and CCP when you hit the "I agree" button.


Not all contract provisions are upheld even if the signining of the contract was witnessed by a judge and made between sober sane adults ... see my wall of text.

You can't sell your kid, or agree to chop off your left hand as a penalty etc. Something that smacked of blackmail where a water-company made you pledge your whole 3 million dollar ranch as a penalty late fee if you were a day late on a $1000 water bill for water you needed desperately to stay in business isn't going to be upheld either most places.

"its a contract" isn't the end of the story. The eula is a valid contract. What parts of a eula will be upheld will be influenced by what a court might see as excesses in provissions or conflicts of those provissions with consumer protection laws.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.09.08 21:51:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
pretty sure a eula isn't legally binding in the Netherlands.


I've got to think that a provision written on the wrapping of a piece of software or music that said you couldn't make copies of it and sell those copies, would be a binding "condition" of sales.

Certainly, I wouldn't be surprised if certain Countries would throw out set penalties in such a "contract" and many of them might provide that you could copy what you bought onto mutiple computers you own (I don't know...but some places) They could have laws either expressly allowing people to do certain things or laws limiting what a typical eula could contain...attacked from either side sort of.

I really doubt they could keep a company from setting some terms of sale. That however, might not be called a "contract" ... perhaps semantics... but I could see places where whether some-one okayed a box or not didn't make a difference in interpretation of what was and what wasn't a legitimate limiation of a company selling a product.

Generals4
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.08 22:40:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Generals4 on 08/09/2011 22:44:12
I'm no lawyer so my knowledge of the law is limited however i don't see the use of the EULA not being valid. I mean, whether you could get a refund at that point depends highly on your countries laws regarding that, regardless of whether the EULA is valid or not. The only instance where i see it being useful is in case CCP would actually sue you for breaching it.

On top of that some need to remember that agreeing with a contract means nothing if the contract is not valid by law. If you for instance sign a contract which states you can be killed if you don't fulfill your obligations killing you in case you don't is illegal, period. Because such a condition renders the contract invalid , even if you signed it.

"If you are then happy with the content, you then carry on and play. Also, there is a clause that you accept that says any resolution to dispute will be carried out under Icelandic law."
This clause for instance seems quite dodgy, now i do not know the law by the letter but it wouldn't surprise me at all such a clause is considered invalid in many countries.

Generals4
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.08 22:46:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
pretty sure a eula isn't legally binding in the Netherlands.


I've got to think that a provision written on the wrapping of a piece of software or music that said you couldn't make copies of it and sell those copies, would be a binding "condition" of sales.




Actually i'm fairly certain this falls under a country's laws of Intellectual property. You don't even need a contract to protect your intellectual property from illegal copying.

Zofran
Posted - 2011.09.08 23:27:00 - [25]
 

It doesn't help that the EULA/ToS are covered in errors, a few typos.

The EULA would pretty much never stand up in court anyway, tho it can be used in part with other things.

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.09.09 08:00:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Marchocias on 09/09/2011 08:02:03
Isn't the "pound of flesh" taken from Antonio's contract with Shylock in "The merchant of Venice"?

And the point was that the pound of flesh clause wasn't unreasonable, but included no provision for taking blood, thereby making it impossible to fulfil without breaking the law.

Caladan Broood
Posted - 2011.09.09 12:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Zofran
It doesn't help that the EULA/ToS are covered in errors, a few typos.

The EULA would pretty much never stand up in court anyway, tho it can be used in part with other things.


That issue has nothing to do with the validity of the contract, merely the construction of the contract. Remember in contract law the party creating the contract is the one against whom construction is construed; meaning the court will view the contract in the most favorable light towards the party that didn't write it (the players).

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
Posted - 2011.09.09 14:29:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: BuckStrider
Your an idiot.

You agreed to the terms of a contract between YOU and CCP when you hit the "I agree" button.


Your an idiot?

Your?

What cruel irony these forums display on a daily basis.

Mr Epeen Cool


 

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