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Fallen Forever
Posted - 2011.09.07 15:25:00 - [1]
 

Context:so im a returning player, i sold my origional toon and bought a more focused pilot with better sp allocation, this toon is well versed in minmatar with a lil wastage towards amarr(not so worried about that), i have a freind in corp who owns a golem marauder cruise missile fit. with this ship my freind steam rolls missions really fast.. being quite impressed by the devestation the golem reacs i have a few questions and statements..

1, after i get all my support skills and tank skills to 5 woulld training for a marauder as money maker wurth the time as oposed to loki? (34 days from loki, 77 from varg tank and gunnery not included)

2, how does the vargur compare to the golem in terms of raw fire power and pure tanking ability?

3, is it possible to effectivly omni tank a vargur?

4, is the extra training and isk wurth it in the end compared to a maelstrom or loki for running lvls 4s? will it pay itself off fast?

thatnks for any and all comments and advise

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.07 17:23:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Fallen Forever
1, after i get all my support skills and tank skills to 5 woulld training for a marauder as money maker wurth the time as oposed to loki? (34 days from loki, 77 from varg tank and gunnery not included)

Any faction battleship or marauder will shred the Loki in terms of performance. It's not even a competition. Expect something like 45% higher raw DPS at three times the range. In case you're curious, The Machariel will do about 15% more DPS than the Vargur, but has about 40% less tracking, uses ~80% more ammunition, and cannot salvage on the go. It's more mobile, but also much squishier.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
2, how does the vargur compare to the golem in terms of raw fire power and pure tanking ability?

Tough to say. On paper, the Golem has much higher raw DPS, owing to the impressive numbers torpedoes put out. Realistically, the Golem frequently has to rely upon Javelin ammunition which erodes its DPS advantage. The Vargur has much better damage application than the Golem. Though this isn't especially useful on the Vargur, it allows a Machariel to pop frigates with turrets and increase raw DPS with sentries.

In terms of tank, you'll find the Vargur somewhat more comfortable. Even though they have approximately the same average resists and shield bonuses, the Golem's capacitor is somewhat stressed by its high reliance on target painters. The Vargur doesn't have this disadvantage. Both of them will trivially outtank a Machariel.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
3, is it possible to effectivly omni tank a vargur?

Trivially. The Vargur has a very even resist profile with only slight weakness to the laser side of the spectrum. The shield amplifier bonus makes tanking Marauders significantly easier than most other ship classes.

Doing so will require a higher isk investment or dropping utility modules like tracking computers, however.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
4, is the extra training and isk wurth it in the end compared to a maelstrom or loki for running lvls 4s? will it pay itself off fast?

I haven't ever flown a Vargur, but I can say that my Nightmare consistently outperforms my Tengu on any mission where lasers aren't an exercise in frustration. Because the Vargur gets nearly universal damage selection and a very even resist profile for tanking, you shouldn't have this problem.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
thatnks for any and all comments and advise

Certainly. If you haven't done so already, do look at the Machariel. It uses almost exactly the same skills as the Vargur -- except that it requires Gallente Battleship (rank 8) instead of Marauders (rank 10), Advanced Weapon Upgrades (rank 6), Energy Grid Upgrades(rank 2)...

Fallen Forever
Posted - 2011.09.07 17:55:00 - [3]
 

thanks for you input, i really apreciate it,

the reason i havent even considered the machariel or any other pirate ship is because i want to stay pure minmatar for a fairly long time, i only really plan to train amarr for their capitals(min caps look suckish) and maybe recons.. that would be all my crosstraining..

also im concerned about tank because id like to sit in 1 spot and open up as the npc's fly to me.. npcs fly straight for you killing transversal and making guns more effective? but siting there also insures less damage mitigation.

another random question or 2, for such a ship as the vargur, damage and falloff bonuse would be a good implant choice?
also effective range would be around where? 50-60km? im guessing because my cyclone has 20km effective range with not so great skills and 1 te

once again thanks for any and all help
fallen.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:13:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 07/09/2011 18:15:14
Originally by: Fallen Forever
the reason i havent even considered the machariel or any other pirate ship is because i want to stay pure minmatar for a fairly long time, i only really plan to train amarr for their capitals(min caps look suckish) and maybe recons.. that would be all my crosstraining..

Why? If it's training time, seriously take a look at how long it would take you to train Gallente Battleship to 4. Most reasonable remaps and implant sets can do it in under two weeks. By comparison, Marauders is a significantly larger undertaking.

It's not like you have to train hybrids to fly a Machariel. All you need is Gallente battleship, itself -- and that's really a very short train.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
also im concerned about tank because id like to sit in 1 spot and open up as the npc's fly to me.. npcs fly straight for you killing transversal and making guns more effective? but siting there also insures less damage mitigation.

Autocannons have absurdly good tracking in the first place. You're not using artillery so tracking is really not a concern. With respect to tanking, both of these ships put out enough DPS that it's not really an issue.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
another random question or 2, for such a ship as the vargur, damage and falloff bonuse would be a good implant choice?

Yes. Slot 7 offers a 5% falloff bonus. Slot 9 and 10 give a 5% damage bonus to turrets and large projectile turrets, respectively. Slot 6 and 8 give capacitor bonuses. You could also use slot 6 for a crystal omega, should you be interested in acquiring the rest of the set.

Originally by: Fallen Forever
also effective range would be around where? 50-60km? im guessing because my cyclone has 20km effective range with not so great skills and 1 te

Generally speaking, I try to avoid using more than half of my listed falloff value. At that point, you're still doing 80% of your listed DPS value, but you're sufficiently far out that tracking isn't an issue.
Both the Machariel and Vargur will get about 70km range, so you want to keep things somewhere between 20km and 35km out. Larger hull classes are slower, so tracking is less of an issue. You'll want to approach them to increase your damage output. Obviously, the reverse is true of frigates.

Keep in mind that the Machariel is significantly more mobile, which allows it to dictate range more effectively.

Fallen Forever
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:31:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Fallen Forever on 07/09/2011 18:37:00
you raise very valid arguments about the machariel... i will take the time to ask around and look into a couple fits about it, i used to know someone who flew a vargur whom maybe i can get back in contact with again, and i believe he owned a machariel for a short period of time as well.. if it dose compare to the vargur atleast in dps output "in the field" then ill have to get myself one forsure, the amount of ammo it burns dosent concern me at all to be honest, bullets are cheap =3.


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:37:00 - [6]
 

If it makes any difference to you, the Machariel is prettier...
...I definitely would not try to omnitank it, though.

Fallen Forever
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:49:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Fallen Forever on 07/09/2011 18:49:46
the mach is prettyer but the vargur looks meaner =P and yea i know di be swapping out hardners all the time for the mach.. QQ.. but ohwell.. u win some u lose some lol if u could have it all theyd let me fly an aeon in hisec lol,


im off home not my internet is on the frietz but add me in game if u want =P

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.09.07 19:29:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
If it makes any difference to you, the Machariel is prettier...
...I definitely would not try to omnitank it, though.


tbh two caldari navy invuls and a decent booster and you are set. Most of the machs tank comes form its speed and the DPS it spews out.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.07 20:11:00 - [9]
 

Oh sure -- for angel missions. Try swapping the damage profile to something a little less friendly to T1 shield resists.

The Vargur gets a bonus to its EM resist, by virtue of being a T2 Minmatar hull. The bonus is small, but it is there. The fitting you've just described, on the other hand, takes literally twice as much damage from EM as from Explosive. I wouldn't exactly call that a characteristic of a good omni tank.

Exploited Engineer
Posted - 2011.09.07 21:45:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Tough to say. On paper, the Golem has much higher raw DPS, owing to the impressive numbers torpedoes put out.


Also: Perfect damage type selection with torpedoes.

Originally by: Aamrr
Realistically, the Golem frequently has to rely upon Javelin ammunition which erodes its DPS advantage.


Personally, I find juggling target painter cycle times and launcher cycle times more detrimental to DPS than the occasional ship hanging out at 55km that required javelins. Hitting unTPed ships (even BSs) really messes up damage application. Also, 40km is, by pure coincidence, a marauders tractor beam range. You usually want to be within 40km of your target so you don't have to slowboat there to salvage, and ~40km is how far out you can hit with regular (and navy) torpedoes.


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.07 22:10:00 - [11]
 

Well, if you're using a marauder properly, salvaging is a task of convenience rather than necessity. If you have to go out of your way to get something, then you should leave it where it lies.

With respects to juggling painter cycle times? I'm not at all surprised. To be honest, the sheer effort involved with piloting a Golem is reason enough to stay away from that ship -- nevermind the volume of skill points necessary to fly it that are almost completely useless anywhere else.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.07 22:55:00 - [12]
 

just for kicks, I once had PvP Vargur that could tank 4500 dps

That was before CCP made battleships obsolete in small scale PvP

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.09.08 02:47:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Oh sure -- for angel missions. Try swapping the damage profile to something a little less friendly to T1 shield resists.

The Vargur gets a bonus to its EM resist, by virtue of being a T2 Minmatar hull. The bonus is small, but it is there. The fitting you've just described, on the other hand, takes literally twice as much damage from EM as from Explosive. I wouldn't exactly call that a characteristic of a good omni tank.


didnt have any trouble when i flew the mach tbh with the tank, sure i didnt take it up against blood raider blockade or anything but serpentis, drones and guristas wasnt any trouble. Stuff dies before they can do much damage

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.08 06:50:00 - [14]
 

That is the worst anecdotal evidence I've ever seen. Drones do basically the same damage profile as Angels. They're easy for shield tanks. Guristas are almost entirely kinetic, hitting your base 40% resist. Moreover, they're missile boats, which means that a significant amount of damage is mitigated by the Machariel's mobility. Serpentis rats are blasterboats. You can kill them before they get in close.

None of them do EM damage to any significant degree, and none of them use long range turrets that apply the damage of the entire room simultaneously. Remind me again how any of those examples are supposed to illustrate how a shield-tanked Machariel copes with laser damage?

Sansha and Blood Raiders also have some of the more difficult ewar for to cope with. Both of them use tracking disruption to a significant degree, which interferes with your ability to kill opponents before they start applying damage. Blood raiders add moderate energy neutralization to the mix, with corresponding stress on your tank.

The Vargur gets an extra midslot, a 37.5% shield boost bonus, and a moderate boost to its weak EM and thermal resists. It makes a much better omnitanking ship than the Machariel. Surely you can see that.

Heun zero
Caldari
Aegis Evolution
Posted - 2011.09.08 07:58:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Personally, I find juggling target painter cycle times and launcher cycle times more detrimental to DPS than the occasional ship hanging out at 55km that required javelins. Hitting unTPed ships (even BSs) really messes up damage application. Also, 40km is, by pure coincidence, a marauders tractor beam range. You usually want to be within 40km of your target so you don't have to slowboat there to salvage, and ~40km is how far out you can hit with regular (and navy) torpedoes.

[/quote



I've been flying a golem for quite a while now and the biggest problem I have is what this guy says. Though imo it''s still only a minor inconvenience.

Other then that it's a great ship and the dmg you'll do is amazing. I dont fly a vargur or mach or antyhing so unfortunatly I can compare it to those ships

Exploited Engineer
Posted - 2011.09.08 19:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
With respects to juggling painter cycle times? I'm not at all surprised. To be honest, the sheer effort involved with piloting a Golem is reason enough to stay away from that ship -- nevermind the volume of skill points necessary to fly it that are almost completely useless anywhere else.


The only skill point investment that's otherwise really useless is getting Marauders 4 and torpedoes 5. All other skills have other applications, too - shield tanking, missile support skills, AWU 5, Caldari BS 5, etc.

Though, with Marauders 4 and some cross-training, you could fly a Vargur, too.

I suppose the Vargur is the more convenient marauder for solo work, but the Golem could shine in fleets by bringing both firepower and several bonused TPs in one package.


 

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