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Cryissa
Caldari
Caldari Navy Operations
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:22:00 - [1]
 

I was talking with someone in game last night who had so many bad things to say about me being a missile user. So much so he was tryign to convince me to drop them and go lasers.

Now I have over 10 mill in SP in Missiles. I would cry to train fully in say lasers at this stage of my career.

Some advice from those who use them as much as me in more dangerous space would be nice to help me decide.

Uppsy Daisy
Caldari
Deteis Industries
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:50:00 - [2]
 

For PVE, missiles are great. The Tengu/Drake/Raven lineup are generally recognized as the best PVE ships.

For PVP, missiles have their uses and aren't totally useless. The fact they don't apply damage instantly is a big weakness, especially in fleets involving lots of logi (remote repairing) (i.e. the logi ships have more time to start repping someone under fire from missiles.)

Sadly, also people don't like them because the flight time delay means that everyone else's weapons hit first and you end up last in 'Damage done' on the kill mail.

Lasers are popular in sub-capital pvp fleets because Scorch L crystals on mega pulse laser IIs give great tracking and damage out to 50km ranges. They are also the weapon of choice on Abbadons, and the Abbadon armor resist bonus makes it the armor battleship of choice whenever logi ships are involved.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:05:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Cryissa
I was talking with someone in game last night who had so many bad things to say about me being a missile user. So much so he was tryign to convince me to drop them and go lasers.

Now I have over 10 mill in SP in Missiles. I would cry to train fully in say lasers at this stage of my career.

Some advice from those who use them as much as me in more dangerous space would be nice to help me decide.


For PVE they're just the best thing you can bring

For PVP blobs and fleet battles aren't everything in this game. In small engagements either low/high sec, missiles are deadly and the chances you succeed using those boats are far bigger than using blaster ships, it's no match for blaster ships if you fly/fit properly your missile boat.

illirdor
Gallente
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:37:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Ineka

For PVP blobs and fleet battles aren't everything in this game. In small engagements either low/high sec, missiles are deadly and the chances you succeed using those boats are far bigger than using blaster ships, it's no match for blaster ships if you fly/fit properly your missile boat.


uhm blasters ?? Why the **** are you talking about blasters when the OP stats Lasers......

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.09.05 14:42:00 - [5]
 

10m SP in missiles should mean some high support skills, which will mean some good DPS figures, thus it will take a while to bring the laser equivalent up to the same level. Not to worry though if your flying sub-BS class ships as they perform well, the Drake possibly being considered the end of the line for missile PvP, although there are ships like the Typhoon with itís ability to offer some good utility high slots that are the exception

Lasers instant damage and high DPS/alpha with good support is attractive, but such a cap dependant weapon system is a liability in engagements where nuets are prevalent if the engagements are drawn out

I would go lasers, and thatís actually what I did after some decent time on missiles, because Amarr offer some fine ships. It is also the weapon system Iím fine tuning over missiles. Projectiles will be next as need to start some work on the ugly ships of Eve

Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.09.05 15:14:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cryissa

Now I have over 10 mill in SP in Missiles. I would cry to train fully in say lasers at this stage of my career.



And what stage is it?

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.09.05 15:17:00 - [7]
 

Nano Torp Raven!

[Raven, NanoTorp]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Target Painter II

Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5

needs someone else to tackle but 1000dps with 5000dmg volly aint to be sniffed at Wink

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.05 15:21:00 - [8]
 

I still don't agree with the perception of missiles being best at PvE. With perfect skills and faction cruise missiles, a CNR tops out under 700 DPS. A Nightmare will do almost 1000 DPS out to 43+41km. A Machariel will do over 1100 DPS to 4+69km. Both of them do it with better damage application than cruise missiles could ever hope for. (Good luck volleying frigates with half your missiles. Hah!) And neither of them loses DPS to defender missiles.

And don't even get me started on trying to bring ravens to incursions...


Panch0Villa
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Cryissa
Now I have over 10 mill in SP in Missiles. I would cry to train fully in say lasers at this stage of my career.


I know of many many people who have "specialized" in all four races, which really isn't specializing, because you're equally good with everything Laughing Over the course of time, retraining for another set of ships opens up many other options, and I think for the most part, most of those people are pretty happy with their choices.

Originally by: Cryissa
Some advice from those who use them as much as me in more dangerous space would be nice to help me decide.


In many larger pvp battles, ship kills are often decided in seconds, or tens of seconds. If you have great volley damage, but it takes 5-8 seconds to hit, you will drop about 1-2 volleys due to missile travel time. This means everywhere you go and whatever you do in these fleets, you will always lag behind on damage, especially in snipe fleets and against remote rep fleets. Further, if you are in small gangs, ship kills may often be decided in 10's or 100's of hp's, even hull hp's. Again, 1-2 less volley's may give than gunship just a bit of an edge over your missile ship.

That's not to say it makes missiles completely irrelevant, but it's a big enough factor that you have to take it into account.

Originally by: Cryissa
I was talking with someone in game last night who had so many bad things to say about me being a missile user. So much so he was tryign to convince me to drop them and go lasers.


He didn't have bad things to say about "you," let's try to make that distinction. There are many elitists out there who scoff at missile users, but if you trained guns, it would be a non-issue. Try to not take it personal and see it for what it is.

As has been pointed out, over the short run, missiles are great because you don't have to train tracking skills or range skills to get good dps out of them at first, but over the long run, once you do train these support skills, the gunships pull ahead due to a combination of instant damage, greater potential damage, wrecking hits, and better ship bonuses and ship types.

TL:DR: Over time, guns are generally better, imo.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
I still don't agree with the perception of missiles being best at PvE. With perfect skills and faction cruise missiles, a CNR tops out under 700 DPS. A Nightmare will do almost 1000 DPS out to 43+41km. A Machariel will do over 1100 DPS to 4+69km. Both of them do it with better damage application than cruise missiles could ever hope for. (Good luck volleying frigates with half your missiles. Hah!) And neither of them loses DPS to defender missiles.

And don't even get me started on trying to bring ravens to incursions...




Not arguing your point but the CNR isn't exactly the end all be all of PVE missle platforms. Just really easy to obtain and fit therefore prevalent with the mid/low sp mission runner crowd. The CNR is just really not that skillpoint intensive compared to the Nightmare or Machariel and reacts really well to even minor faction mod's. Lets be honest though. That CNR puts out its full dps to its entire range, the nightmare and even more so the mach probably do not out DPS the CNR at say 60km. The torp Golemn on the other hand gives both the Mach and the Nightmare a run for its money DPS wise while fielding an insane tank and plenty of utility highs like the Nightmare. The Golemn can fire torps to 54km and with the TP bonus delivers big time actual DPS numbers not really depending on range like a turret weapon will. Obviously very skill intensive. And no you won't be volleying frigates but that's what drones are for anyhow and that wouldn't matter which one of the ships I was flying.

Lets not forget the Tengu which can spit some pretty decent DPS while tanking insane amounts of incoming DPS on the cheap compared to a nightmare/machariel hull. Reasonable training is another benefit the Tengu has going for it. It's not hard to get into a Tengu pretty quickly and start crushing 4's. Or cloaking it up and running low sec anoms etc. The tengu can do anything the mach or nightmare can do albeit not as fast in some cases (though blitzing missions it will flat out dominate either ship), and lots of things they can't even begin to effectively do.

I won't go so far as to say missles own PVE but they are a pretty solid choice for low SP and isk. Only in 1bil isk hulls with another bil or 2 in fittings can you exceed the CNR and match the golemn. If I was swimming in isk I could be easily talked into a nightmare. Till then I can buy and fit a CNR with some decent faction mods for just the price of the hulls we are discussing.

tl;dr

Golemn and Tengu say hi!!

Pookoko
Posted - 2011.09.05 18:47:00 - [11]
 

Missiles have their issues, as has been pointed out already, but check the following list of ships & how much 'cool factor' they have. Cool

Hawk, Caldari Navy Hookbill, Vengence, Sacrilege, HAM Legion, Nano Drake

Basically, what often gets scoffed at is 'sit and spam missiles' strategy. Once it gets to missiles+kiting or missiles+Armor tank people start to think it's pretty funky.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.09.05 19:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Panch0Villa


In many larger pvp battles, ship kills are often decided in seconds, or tens of seconds. If you have great volley damage, but it takes 5-8 seconds to hit, you will drop about 1-2 volleys due to missile travel time. This means everywhere you go and whatever you do in these fleets, you will always lag behind on damage, especially in snipe fleets and against remote rep fleets. Further, if you are in small gangs, ship kills may often be decided in 10's or 100's of hp's, even hull hp's. Again, 1-2 less volley's may give than gunship just a bit of an edge over your missile ship.

That's not to say it makes missiles completely irrelevant, but it's a big enough factor that you have to take it into account.



To be fair though, in the fights where that is the case, your firepower is largely irrelevant anyway. I know it's a factor in big fleet, but ... there's enough smaller scale fighting that that _isn't_ the case.

Also, 'shoot the primary' is often actually quite a narrow view of PvP. Ideal when you've got a bunch of unique and special snowflakes looking to 'do their thing' and get up mullered by an organised foe.
But actually not nearly so important when you get to a more experienced combat gang, when individual pilots are capable of effectively assessing what they should be doing for optimal combat efficiency.

There, swapping a couple of missile boats to 'counter' duties gets quite potent. I mean, being able to reach out and touch and ECM platform with a pair of Cerbs, whilst less relevant than it was when all Falcons were run by alts and sat at 150km, but it's still significantly useful to be able to do instant target switching on anything within your sphere of influence.

Then again, what you say is largely true, as the vast majority of pilots and gangs in EVE are not experienced enough, or used to flying together enough to do more than 'FC calls primary, everyone kill it' fleet doctrines.

Kurfin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.09.05 19:48:00 - [13]
 

IMO the biggest issue with missiles is that when you have trained them you can't use the support skills for anything else. All weapon systems have limitations, though projectiles have less than the rest ATM, but if you go with a turret system you have two others you can train without starting from scratch with the support skills.

I'd stick with missiles for now and cross train when you are ready, they are perfectly, usable unlike hybrids. Ignore the guy.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.09.06 03:31:00 - [14]
 

i fly both caldari missile boats and amarr gunships for 0.0 pvp and pve.

Each has their advantages and disadvantages. I would train for both, but you dont need to get in a big hurry and drop missile boats all together. Missile boats are used, mostly the drake and t2 ships. A fleet drake can still push nearly 350-450 dps out to 75 km without drones of any damage type and still get a 90k omnitank. Which if you ever tried to chew through 100 missile firing drakes with a similar size fleet it can be a bit on the slow side.

Most people dont like having to wait. I like the flexible range. As for getting on KMs( or you can call it being useful), if your FC isnt a total idiot then you should be able to get on a decent amount.They should always have a secondary target and sometimes a "thirdary" as they say. Depending on your fleet size, how fast your fleet kills the targets, your relation to the targets distance wise, etc, you select one of the two or three targets.Just like if all targets are out of range, instead of sitting their try to attack something closer that has a crappy tank or at least shoot something until you can get back on targets. Normally, i shoot at every second target in a decent size fleet while its still secondary and follow through till it pops then move on to the next secondary and follow it till its popped.

See missiles in pvp isnt just sit there and spam missiles and be lazy. It requires more independent thought than many people think. But i guess people dont want to think in a fleet they want to be lil robots of the FC.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.06 04:59:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
They should always have a secondary target and sometimes a "thirdary" as they say.


...Nobody says that. It's tertiary.

nate555
Caldari
The Godhand Corporation
Posted - 2011.09.06 05:05:00 - [16]
 

try to use hybrids. blasters are the best damage but suck range. rails can have very good range and do some damage. but if you dont want to use them, try heavy assault. little smaller range but better rate of fire. i my myself need to get into the t2's

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.09.06 05:09:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 06/09/2011 05:09:52
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
They should always have a secondary target and sometimes a "thirdary" as they say.


...Nobody says that. It's tertiary.


I know,ive heard some FCs say "thirdary" on comms, i thought it was amusing, thus why i included it. Sorry when you sit in fleets all day listening to BS on comms you find the least lil things amusing and it sticks with you.

Quote:
try to use hybrids. blasters are the best damage but suck range. rails can have very good range and do some damage. but if you dont want to use them, try heavy assault. little smaller range but better rate of fire. i my myself need to get into the t2's
Hybrids are the worse weapon system you can use for about anything.

Cryissa
Caldari
Caldari Navy Operations
Posted - 2011.09.06 11:18:00 - [18]
 

Thank you all for your replies. It's been a big help to me. Ive played Eve for a good number of years but kind of stuck to my own little safe bubble. Limited and closed mind but it works for what I normally do. I have a good amount of skills. I said that before just toping 70k. Being Caldari I have stuck to Caldari ships, shield tanking and missiles. I did train up the hybrids but as you say they are not very good. Only recently I trained to fly Gallente Frigate/Cruiser and Battleship to level 5. Of course them being drones for me as I fly a Rattlesnake for more relaxed AFK missions at times. I want to branch out and get into PVP more. It's why I was thinking about missiles for that and yes I understand the flight time in groups is a problem. 1V1 I don't see that problem so much but I hear 1V1 is quite rare and the times I got caught at say a gate in a Golem I was stupid enough to engage thinking I can take them only to get many more in a gang to kill me. I understand all that.

So I can train up something else. I can go Lasers or Projectile. I am not sure I want to do both.

I have the Gunnery skills to 10 mill and the associated skills with them all to level 5 so that means the Advance Weapon Upgrades the Controlled Bursts Motion Predicition, Rapid Firing, Sharpshooet, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis....


So this would mean training up into another area should be easier for me right? Just decide on Amarr or Minmatar and go?


Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.09.06 14:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Cryissa
Thank you all for your replies. It's been a big help to me. Ive played Eve for a good number of years but kind of stuck to my own little safe bubble. Limited and closed mind but it works for what I normally do. I have a good amount of skills. I said that before just toping 70k. Being Caldari I have stuck to Caldari ships, shield tanking and missiles. I did train up the hybrids but as you say they are not very good. Only recently I trained to fly Gallente Frigate/Cruiser and Battleship to level 5. Of course them being drones for me as I fly a Rattlesnake for more relaxed AFK missions at times. I want to branch out and get into PVP more. It's why I was thinking about missiles for that and yes I understand the flight time in groups is a problem. 1V1 I don't see that problem so much but I hear 1V1 is quite rare and the times I got caught at say a gate in a Golem I was stupid enough to engage thinking I can take them only to get many more in a gang to kill me. I understand all that.

So I can train up something else. I can go Lasers or Projectile. I am not sure I want to do both.

I have the Gunnery skills to 10 mill and the associated skills with them all to level 5 so that means the Advance Weapon Upgrades the Controlled Bursts Motion Predicition, Rapid Firing, Sharpshooet, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis....


So this would mean training up into another area should be easier for me right? Just decide on Amarr or Minmatar and go?




Some low sec zones offer you small scale pvp going from 1v1 to 1v2 and 3/4 pilots gang, you can expect 20+ BO's or caps hot drops thou, just gtfo if you ever see pilgrims or rapiers on your ds. (happened to one friend, was just lol so many tards for one bc)

You must have some contacts with low sec people now that you play for several years, try to find common interest (keep the zone safe) join their chan intel and get blued by locals. You can have lots of fun.

xxSeptherothxx
Posted - 2011.09.06 22:07:00 - [20]
 

tengu......nuff said

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.09.07 22:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cryissa


So this would mean training up into another area should be easier for me right? Just decide on Amarr or Minmatar and go?




If you're going to cross train, I'd suggest looking at Minmatar. I've found that the places where Caldari excel are at specialist niche ships.
They're quite nicely complemented by the Minmatar schtick of being mobile and versatile - not to mention having the better choices for the fast and light end of the scale.

But don't give up entirely - as I said before, it's not that Caldari is bad, it's just specialist, and requires a bit of forethought into gang composition. Unfortunately, that tends to lead to a chicken and egg scenario - most experienced corps are dismissive of 'noobs' and Caldari ship lineup simply isn't well suited to solo or very small gang skirmishing.

OT Smithers
Posted - 2011.09.08 16:38:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cryissa
I was talking with someone in game last night who had so many bad things to say about me being a missile user. So much so he was tryign to convince me to drop them and go lasers.

Now I have over 10 mill in SP in Missiles. I would cry to train fully in say lasers at this stage of my career.

Some advice from those who use them as much as me in more dangerous space would be nice to help me decide.


The guy is an idiot. Missiles are one of the deadliest weapons in the game. Perhaps not on PAPER or EFT, but in game missiles are pure sex.

Mupdadoodidda Bix Nood
Posted - 2011.09.08 19:54:00 - [23]
 

Dude 10M SP is **** all, its not a big deal, just get both.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cryissa
I was talking with someone in game last night who had so many bad things to say about me being a missile user. So much so he was tryign to convince me to drop them and go lasers.

Now I have over 10 mill in SP in Missiles. I would cry to train fully in say lasers at this stage of my career.

Some advice from those who use them as much as me in more dangerous space would be nice to help me decide.


During my 3.5 years in EVE I have not once regretted training missiles. In fact, got them maxed out on two of my chars.

The only place where I do not use them is in big fleets/gangs where the missile flight time is of any consequence.

Other then that they rock, when used right. E.g. the HAM Drake is pretty awesome, and HM Drkae too.


 

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