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Col Crunch
Caldari
Industrial Guardians of New Eden
New Eden's Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:05:00 - [1]
 

How would someone report to CCP a site that engages in RMT?

Johann King
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:09:00 - [2]
 

ENLIGHTEN US PLEASE...WHAT COULD CCP POSSIBLY DO? CCP CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO GET RID OF THE RMT SITES. ALL YOU CAN DO IS JUST IGNORE IT.

Col Crunch
Caldari
Industrial Guardians of New Eden
New Eden's Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:33:00 - [3]
 

They can issue a Cease and Desist Order (Cause as you may know it is against the law to profit off of others' intellectual property with out consent), and if they choose not to obey the order, the authorities and courts get involved.

Trolls Troll
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:37:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Col Crunch
They can issue a Cease and Desist Order (Cause as you may know it is against the law to profit off of others' intellectual property with out consent), and if they choose not to obey the order, the authorities and courts get involved.


I think this thread should Cease and Desist.

SellStuff Hunny
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:49:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Col Crunch
They can issue a Cease and Desist Order (Cause as you may know it is against the law to profit off of others' intellectual property with out consent), and if they choose not to obey the order, the authorities and courts get involved.


I think OP should get back to school and learn that there are other coutries in the world except the states, iraq and afganoruchina (see what I did there? it's called Asia)

oh and it would be most welcome to receive your cease and desist orders in paper, since they can be used as toilet paper in some further to east countries (call it humanitarian help if you will).

also google up jurisdiction mate.

Col Crunch
Caldari
Industrial Guardians of New Eden
New Eden's Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 09:39:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Col Crunch on 05/09/2011 09:41:02
Originally by: SellStuff Hunny
Originally by: Col Crunch
They can issue a Cease and Desist Order (Cause as you may know it is against the law to profit off of others' intellectual property with out consent), and if they choose not to obey the order, the authorities and courts get involved.


I think OP should get back to school and learn that there are other coutries in the world except the states, iraq and afganoruchina (see what I did there? it's called Asia)

oh and it would be most welcome to receive your cease and desist orders in paper, since they can be used as toilet paper in some further to east countries (call it humanitarian help if you will).

also google up jurisdiction mate.


Originally by: "EULA"

GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland.
It violates the EULA, thus CCP may act against any player based on ICELANDIC law. Read relevant legal documents... Oh, look to do RMT you need at least 1 EVE account(common sense), and you are bound legally by the EULA (regardless of location).
Originally by: "EULA"

B. Selling Items and Objects
You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.

Originally by: "ToS"

7. You may not violate any local, state, national or international laws or regulations.


10. You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items.


In regards to 7... This varies from place to place
In Regards to 10.. Oh look, says you won't RMT, thus you break a legally binding contract. There is no jurisdictional issue here, also a Cease and Desist Order (which do exist in more than just the US) is but 1 of numerous legal avenues CCP could take.


Trolls Troll
Posted - 2011.09.05 09:44:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Col Crunch
useless legal humdrum



Yes because that worked so well for Pirate Bay didnt it

malaire
Posted - 2011.09.05 09:49:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Col Crunch
It violates the EULA, thus CCP may act against any player based on ICELANDIC law. Read relevant legal documents... Oh, look to do RMT you need at least 1 EVE account(common sense), and you are bound legally by the EULA (regardless of location).

How would CCP know which account the RMT site is using if you just report RMT site?

If you do know account/char connected to RMT site, then just report that account/char via petition.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.09.05 09:50:00 - [9]
 

CCP could always laugh at them like we did as they rant on the RMT forumsTwisted Evil

Zenith Intaki
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:05:00 - [10]
 

LOL like america is controlling the world... AAAAHAHAHAHA... China OWNS america, China owns the world.

Col Crunch
Caldari
Industrial Guardians of New Eden
New Eden's Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:21:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Col Crunch
It violates the EULA, thus CCP may act against any player based on ICELANDIC law. Read relevant legal documents... Oh, look to do RMT you need at least 1 EVE account(common sense), and you are bound legally by the EULA (regardless of location).

How would CCP know which account the RMT site is using if you just report RMT site?

If you do know account/char connected to RMT site, then just report that account/char via petition.

CCP can contact the ISP and/or hosting company etc. and obtain information on the person who owns and operates the site, and they go from there.

Leona Elum
Save Jita
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:33:00 - [12]
 

IF WE ALL PANIC AND START TYPING IN CAPS I'M SURE THEY WILL GO AWAY!

Seriously though, make a petition under "Community" and include the site name and RMT activities, like what Ads they might be running etc.

Also include a screenshot if possible.

Not 100% sure this really is how CCP would like for us to do, if not please correct me.

Col Crunch
Caldari
Industrial Guardians of New Eden
New Eden's Industrial Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Leona Elum
IF WE ALL PANIC AND START TYPING IN CAPS I'M SURE THEY WILL GO AWAY!

Seriously though, make a petition under "Community" and include the site name and RMT activities, like what Ads they might be running etc.

Also include a screenshot if possible.

Not 100% sure this really is how CCP would like for us to do, if not please correct me.

Thank you for the productive reply :)

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:30:00 - [14]
 

i do not know, sorry.

If i did, i would report some Goonie RMT sites i have found

CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:44:00 - [15]
 

The best way to bring something like this to our attention would be to submit a petition under 'EULA & Terms of Service'

TheReverend
Most Wanted INC
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:07:00 - [16]
 

It is pointles to submit anything about RMT to CCP, I did that with ******* site. I gave them list of buyers, they told me that it is against eula. I tried it 3 times then I gave up afther they told me that they will ban me. CCP don't care abouth RMT. Go to evenews24 instead

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: TheReverend
It is pointles to submit anything about RMT to CCP, I did that with ******* site. I gave them list of buyers, they told me that it is against eula. I tried it 3 times then I gave up afther they told me that they will ban me. CCP don't care abouth RMT. Go to evenews24 instead

^Clearly a lying RMTer attempting to cover his tracks. Laughing

TheReverend
Most Wanted INC
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:29:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: TheReverend on 05/09/2011 12:30:21
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: TheReverend
It is pointles to submit anything about RMT to CCP, I did that with ******* site. I gave them list of buyers, they told me that it is against eula. I tried it 3 times then I gave up afther they told me that they will ban me. CCP don't care abouth RMT. Go to evenews24 instead

^Clearly a lying RMTer attempting to cover his tracks. Laughing


Feal free to ask Rivirini about me.

EDIT: Not posting with alt is way to go

Kerppe Krulli
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:37:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Col Crunch
They can issue a Cease and Desist Order (Cause as you may know it is against the law to profit off of others' intellectual property with out consent), and if they choose not to obey the order, the authorities and courts get involved.


You are mistaken in your knowledge of the law sir and why it does not apply here. A contract between you and the company is only a contract, a civil matter and nothing more. A cease and desist is not an order it is a demand. An order is what a court grants AFTER a hearing or trial on the merits of the case. Injunctions are available but not in this case.

A C&D demand is the initial prelude to protect your IP. The laws governing IP are civil in nature and therefore must be sued in civil court. These RMT sites are in various countries and therefore your court's governing jurisdiction will not apply; jurisdiction only extends to the borders and no further.

The governing law clause in the EULA is an agreement between two parties to use the laws of one jurisdiction to govern the meaning of the entire contract. The clause is used to try and produce harmony regarding contact's legal construction if any dispute arises. However, the contract will not confer jurisdiction which in most countries is based upon personal jurisdiction, meaning, that the person you are trying to sue is present in the forum in which you sued.

You misread the clause regarding violating laws. That clause is superfluous at best. You think it to mean that you cannot violate Icelandic laws but it does not. It means you promise not to use EVE to violate your own countries laws. Mainly this is a safe-haven for CCP where the user is in a dictatorship and try to use EVE to violate local laws. Think here the Chinese and other dissidents in other countries using EVE as a chat relay. CCP will say they cannot be held responsible for the dissident's actions since the dissident promised they wouldn't do 'x'.

The quick version: RMT sites are outside of any friendly jurisdiction to CCP; the cost of trying to find out who operates these sites is steep; the cost of going to the violator's home jurisdiction to sue is steep; the violator will have opened a new site under a new name in a new country before the ink on the attorney's signature dries. This is why CCP can't do anything but track large financial trades to known bot's or existing RMT covers.

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:50:00 - [20]
 

Its been a while since a post has made me laugh as much as this one did.

If it was that easy don't you think that every MMO developer would be doing this?

RMT sites have existed for as long as MMO's have and will continue to exist as long as MMO's do.

The issue is not with the RMT sites themselves but the players.

As long as players are willing to pay RL money for in game currancy/items then RMT sites will continue to pop up.

The real question you should be asking is why CCP continues to do nothing about the alliances in null sec who employ large army of bots and sell massive amounts of isk for RL money to the RMT sites (where do you think they get a large portion of there isk from?) and instead concentrate their efforts on the individuals who relatively speaking only buy tiny amounts of isk.

SellStuff Hunny
Posted - 2011.09.05 12:56:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Col Crunch
Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Col Crunch
It violates the EULA, thus CCP may act against any player based on ICELANDIC law. Read relevant legal documents... Oh, look to do RMT you need at least 1 EVE account(common sense), and you are bound legally by the EULA (regardless of location).

How would CCP know which account the RMT site is using if you just report RMT site?

If you do know account/char connected to RMT site, then just report that account/char via petition.

CCP can contact the ISP and/or hosting company etc. and obtain information on the person who owns and operates the site, and they go from there.


Hello general Delusion, I wanted to bring it to your notice that in most of the world (land of the free? :D ) one must acquire a court permit to get information about some business' client, for this you mus sue in that respected country and spend something between metric and yankee ton of moneys. EVEN after that pile of money is burnt in my paper fed heater, you would still only close a site that I would open with a name [your_closed_site][marketing term].[whatever] get it?

basically dedicate resources to proper hangar view and for mind's sake ADD THE BLOODY HANGARS OF CAPITAL SHIPS TO THE MENUS coz.... everytime you need to right click menu something - canadian kills a baby seal... yea that white nice fluffy one. YOU :CCP: EBIL MEN!!!

TheReverend
Most Wanted INC
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.09.05 13:41:00 - [22]
 

Lots of site out there are just midle man of RMT and there isn't nay point tracking them, but other sites don't use share hostings, they have they personal server, like iskbank or mmovp, and you can obtain their informations just with googling, but still that is not solution, as long as you can play eve with HTTP tunel softwear tracking sites is pointles.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.05 15:32:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 05/09/2011 15:32:43
Originally by: Kerppe Krulli
Originally by: Col Crunch
They can issue a Cease and Desist Order (Cause as you may know it is against the law to profit off of others' intellectual property with out consent), and if they choose not to obey the order, the authorities and courts get involved.


You are mistaken in your knowledge of the law sir and why it does not apply here. A contract between you and the company is only a contract, a civil matter and nothing more. A cease and desist is not an order it is a demand. An order is what a court grants AFTER a hearing or trial on the merits of the case. Injunctions are available but not in this case.

A C&D demand is the initial prelude to protect your IP. The laws governing IP are civil in nature and therefore must be sued in civil court. These RMT sites are in various countries and therefore your court's governing jurisdiction will not apply; jurisdiction only extends to the borders and no further.

The governing law clause in the EULA is an agreement between two parties to use the laws of one jurisdiction to govern the meaning of the entire contract. The clause is used to try and produce harmony regarding contact's legal construction if any dispute arises. However, the contract will not confer jurisdiction which in most countries is based upon personal jurisdiction, meaning, that the person you are trying to sue is present in the forum in which you sued.

You misread the clause regarding violating laws. That clause is superfluous at best. You think it to mean that you cannot violate Icelandic laws but it does not. It means you promise not to use EVE to violate your own countries laws. Mainly this is a safe-haven for CCP where the user is in a dictatorship and try to use EVE to violate local laws. Think here the Chinese and other dissidents in other countries using EVE as a chat relay. CCP will say they cannot be held responsible for the dissident's actions since the dissident promised they wouldn't do 'x'.

The quick version: RMT sites are outside of any friendly jurisdiction to CCP; the cost of trying to find out who operates these sites is steep; the cost of going to the violator's home jurisdiction to sue is steep; the violator will have opened a new site under a new name in a new country before the ink on the attorney's signature dries. This is why CCP can't do anything but track large financial trades to known bot's or existing RMT covers.


Short version;

Yeas the EULA is unenforceable in many places.
The Intellectual Property issue is enforceable in many many more jurisdictions. (but not all)
Therefore it is impossible to get a cease and deist order to all RMT sites, agreed.

However the ISK has to come from the tranquility server. Therefore it can be stopped. The question is will it take more resources to stop it than it will cost to let it go on?

Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:33:00 - [24]
 

I would like to buy some advertising space on CCP's site for my RMT website. Who would I contact to do this? I think we could all make lots and lots of money from this!

Spacing Cowboy
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:54:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gorki Andropov
I would like to buy some advertising space on CCP's site for my RMT website. Who would I contact to do this? I think we could all make lots and lots of money from this!



There is a guy named Hilmar at ccp who thinks greed is good, so he's a good bet for a good offer i think.


 

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