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Valentine Gannon
Posted - 2011.09.05 05:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Valentine Gannon on 05/09/2011 05:49:41
Why do shield tankers only get a shield boost bonus with crystals while armor tankers get an overall buff with slaves. This is a joke, rendering passive shield tankers as second class citizens in small gang warfare. This need to be changed.

What am I going to do, active tank a PVP drake?

2ippy
Amarr
Nova Ardour
Posted - 2011.09.05 05:57:00 - [2]
 

Active drakes do work under the correct cirumstances

Just sayin'
And there's plenty of other ships out there you can active shield tank

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Valentine Gannon
What am I going to do, active tank a PVP drake?


Buffer tanking (i.e. LSE + hards, with CDFEs for rigs) is pretty standard for PvP Drakes, just sayin'

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:32:00 - [4]
 

Slaves affect capitals but crystals don't.

Slaves are OP.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:42:00 - [5]
 

I see no reason why not to have a version for shields.

Something like "+x% shields, +x% to shield recharge time"

Ms Dodix
Posted - 2011.09.05 08:50:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Slaves affect capitals but crystals don't.

Slaves are OP.



You base that on your one heron-kill back in March?

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.09.05 09:04:00 - [7]
 

Pro-shields

Shield passively regenerate... armor does not.
Shields get fully repped after docking... armor does not.
Shield tanks allow one to fit many "gank" related modules in the low-slots... armor does not.
Shield extenders and rigs do not give a speed/agility penalty... armor plates and rigs do.


Pro-armor

Armor can cram on more raw HP... shields cannot.
Armor has a more "even" resistance profile... shields do not.
Armor allows a ship to fit many "utility" mods... shield don't.
Armor plates and rigs do not increase a ships signature radius (i.e. makes the ship "bigger")... shield extenders and rigs do.


Different tanking styles are not SUPPOSED to be used all the same way. Some excel at certain things where others fall flat.

Buffer shield tankers have the luxury of being able to cram as much "gank" as they can into their low-slots and being relatively mobile compared to other ships in their respective class... they just pay for it in terms of having a "lighter" HP buffer than most (exception: Drake).

Passive tankers have a tank that naturally regenerates a good amount of damage and is relatively immune to energy neutralizers (perfect for 1v1, 1v2 situations)... but they must dedicate most of the ship's fitting slots to the tank and give up some mobility.

Active shield tankers, like buffer shield tankers, are able to cram the low slots with "gank" modules while their mid slots focus entirely on tank. They can also take advantage of relatively fast cycle times for their shield boosters to work. Crystals implant add to this strength and allow a ship to regenerate a large amounts of HP. The main issue with Active shield tanks is that they use up a TON of capacitor.


Buffer armor tankers can use the omni-resists of Energized Adaptive Membranes and the non-stackable raw HP of plates to their advantage, able to pile up "non-neutable" buffer that is quite substantial. Slave Implants add to this strength.
However, buffer armor tanked ships suffer from poor speed and mobility due to equipped plates, thus making such ships easily outrun and outmaneuvered. EANMs are also not "overheatable" the same way shield hardeners are and take the place of "gank" mods that many an armor enthusiast would LOVE to fit.

Active armor tankers... unless it's on a ship that has bonuses for armor repair amount, I have not much good to say about it. One must dedicate all of their low-slots and some of their mids to pull off a good active armor tank. And, while it consumes much less cap than an active shield tank, it is also less effective and aborbs less overall.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.09.05 13:02:00 - [8]
 

Just different tanking styles mate. I use my crystal set far more than a use my slave set. In fact I honestly can't remember the last time I used my slave set but I used my crystals last night. In essence however, crystals and active tank are for solo/small gang, slaves and armor buffer are for medium gang (>10) and larger. If you had crystals boost shield HP instead of boost amount, I and many others with them would consider that a substantial nerf to crystals and shield tanking as a whole.

As for passive shield tanking, it has it's advantages. A completely ordinary buffer drake still has around 100-150 dps passive recharge without a single shield recharge mod/rig. That's equivalent to a harbinger fitting both a 1600mm plate and a MAR to go with it. EFT that type of setup and you'll find that in that kind of configuration, the drake has more tank with equal DPS. A slave set does shift things in favor of the harbinger but not by a whole lot.

Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:13:00 - [9]
 

Crystals are underpowered compared to slaves, since they favor active tanking and do not work on capitals.

Why do they not work on capital? Because back in old eve this was believed to be OP. Then capital were all about active tanking and only few people experimented with RR buffer tanks. Shield gets shafted on the rig side as well, as there are rigs which don't work on capital shield mods, which do work on capital armor mods.

Should CCP look back and re-balance this? Yeah, that would be good. Will they? No of course not.
It takes only 20 seconds to fix the Crystals code, but forever will pass before any change is made.

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:14:00 - [10]
 

To you, in a word:

Fiddlesticks

ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:27:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
I see no reason why not to have a version for shields.

Something like "+x% shields, +x% to shield recharge time"


There is, but it isn't close to a slave set, it is the Sansha modified Gnome implant. But, at like 200m isk for only +3% to both, it is really only suited to low/high sec.

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.09.05 20:13:00 - [12]
 

It's called balance.

Why don't armor have an have one that boosts armor repairer amount?

Valentine Gannon
Posted - 2011.09.05 21:31:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Valentine Gannon on 05/09/2011 21:34:00
Quote:
It's called balance.

Why don't armor have an have one that boosts armor repairer amount?


Shield ships Built for PVP are for the most part buff fits, and not active tanked. so lets make a trade, you can have your armor crystals if I can have your shield slaves. any takers?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.09.05 22:27:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 05/09/2011 22:33:03
Originally by: Ms Dodix
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Slaves affect capitals but crystals don't.

Slaves are OP.

You base that on your one heron-kill back in March?

I don't think I've ever killed a Heron with this account, and I'm sure you've never known anyone with multiple accounts (I have 5).

EDIT: What do you know, I did kill a Heron. I remember now, he and a Hookbill were stealing tags from Sleeper wrecks. The only other killmail I think I've been on with this account is a Manticore... shortly before the rest of his gang uncloaked and nuked my Scorpion and friend's Legion.

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.09.05 22:29:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Valentine Gannon
Edited by: Valentine Gannon on 05/09/2011 21:34:00
Quote:
It's called balance.

Why don't armor have an have one that boosts armor repairer amount?


Shield ships Built for PVP are for the most part buff fits, and not active tanked. so lets make a trade, you can have your armor crystals if I can have your shield slaves. any takers?


OR, and bear with me here, because I know how hard-headedly stupid you forumites can be... I propose, you just stop being a whiney little git and start having a life? Laughing

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2011.09.06 01:15:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Zeerover
Crystals are underpowered compared to slaves, since they favor active tanking and do not work on capitals.

Why do they not work on capital? Because back in old eve this was believed to be OP. Then capital were all about active tanking and only few people experimented with RR buffer tanks. Shield gets shafted on the rig side as well, as there are rigs which don't work on capital shield mods, which do work on capital armor mods.

Should CCP look back and re-balance this? Yeah, that would be good. Will they? No of course not.
It takes only 20 seconds to fix the Crystals code, but forever will pass before any change is made.


I do not know if active tanking over 10000 dps shield tanks on battleships are under power at all if you think how much people like to deagro on stations etc...

Extremely Extreme Extremist
Posted - 2011.09.06 01:35:00 - [17]
 

Doth mine eyes perceive this truthfully?
One may plug five Matari slaves into the respective five skill enhancement slots and they have an effect on both capital AND subcapital ships?

Will any Matari do or must one seek specific Mataris such as the Matari 2600?


Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.09.06 02:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Zeerover
Crystals are underpowered compared to slaves, since they favor active tanking and do not work on capitals.

Why do they not work on capital? Because back in old eve this was believed to be OP. Then capital were all about active tanking and only few people experimented with RR buffer tanks. Shield gets shafted on the rig side as well, as there are rigs which don't work on capital shield mods, which do work on capital armor mods.

Should CCP look back and re-balance this? Yeah, that would be good. Will they? No of course not.
It takes only 20 seconds to fix the Crystals code, but forever will pass before any change is made.


I do not know if active tanking over 10000 dps shield tanks on battleships are under power at all if you think how much people like to deagro on stations etc...


Point is rather that it doesn't scale at all, unlike RR ships with high resists, slaves and legion boosts.

You really think crystals, pill, booster maelstorms on stations are more imba?

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2011.09.06 02:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Zeerover
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Zeerover
Crystals are underpowered compared to slaves, since they favor active tanking and do not work on capitals.

Why do they not work on capital? Because back in old eve this was believed to be OP. Then capital were all about active tanking and only few people experimented with RR buffer tanks. Shield gets shafted on the rig side as well, as there are rigs which don't work on capital shield mods, which do work on capital armor mods.

Should CCP look back and re-balance this? Yeah, that would be good. Will they? No of course not.
It takes only 20 seconds to fix the Crystals code, but forever will pass before any change is made.


I do not know if active tanking over 10000 dps shield tanks on battleships are under power at all if you think how much people like to deagro on stations etc...


Point is rather that it doesn't scale at all, unlike RR ships with high resists, slaves and legion boosts.

You really think crystals, pill, booster maelstorms on stations are more imba?


No, i think those both are quite much balanced.

Rahn Koban
Posted - 2011.09.06 03:30:00 - [20]
 

It isn't a "Set" like crystal, slave, or snake... but there is an implant that adds 5% to shield HP available for the low low price of 80m from many LP stores!

There's probably one for armor too but I've never gone looking for it.

Alissa Solette
Posted - 2011.09.06 13:28:00 - [21]
 

I wouldn't worry about the implant sets too much.

I agree that the armor ones are way better (because active tanking sucks in regular PVP) but the implant sets cost so much that most people don't use them for regular PVP.

I only really use my Slaves when I know I'll be flying an expensive armor tanker - the rest of the time I have them stored in a Jump Clone.

So saying that passive shield tanks are "second class" is totally untrue - maybe it would have some merit if everyone were flying around with Slaves but this is not the case so in reality it makes no difference for PVP.

I'm fairly well off in EVE but I wouldn't stay that way if I used 500mil ISK implant sets all the time. I'm sure this is the same for 99% of the EVE population.

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2011.09.06 17:10:00 - [22]
 

i'm just gonna throw it out there, from my eft adventures i've come to the conclusion that, not taking into consideration thermodynamics, in general active armor tank is stronger than shield tank on ships of the same class while shield buffers are the same as armoe buffers, but they regenerate, it might be a reasoning behind it, the implants may be the way they are to balance things, just a thought

OT Smithers
Posted - 2011.09.08 16:15:00 - [23]
 

Like many things in eve it is probably not perfectly balanced. The good news here is that if this particular imbalance is something that concerns you, if you feel you need these (or any) implants to be effective, you definately shouldn't be using them anyway.

You money is FAR better spent on relatively inexpensive hulls than on shiny implants and mods.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.08 16:39:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: OT Smithers
Like many things in eve it is probably not perfectly balanced. The good news here is that if this particular imbalance is something that concerns you, if you feel you need these (or any) implants to be effective, you definately shouldn't be using them anyway.

You money is FAR better spent on relatively inexpensive hulls than on shiny implants and mods.


Ya! Who needs implants. What a waste of isk!!! Do not buy those, it's like buying a monocle.

Sarfux
Posted - 2011.09.08 20:10:00 - [25]
 

In a game in which is toted as requiring alot of intelligence due to it's complexity ccp refuses to make more implants and modules to increase the level of dynamic play.

CCP logic for the win. best logic ever.




Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.08 22:31:00 - [26]
 

I have to agree that CCP game designers messed with the pirate implements for shield and armor. They should have been mirror balanced - with passive and active bonuses for both armor and shield.

You can justify the current limited design any way you want, but it clearly falls short of its potential.

It's also ironic to see the half done job of tanking implements to capitol ships. I completely agree that allowing Crystals for capitols would be bad. And the exact same logic should apply to Slaves. I don't really understand how CCP could be smart enough to see the problem with shield, yet failed to make the connection with armor. It's a job half done.

That seems to be the CCP style - "we do everything half way"

Dynast
Osirians Of Eve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.09 08:48:00 - [27]
 

Shield buffering is now the default for almost all ships under battleship, from dramiels to vagas to cynabals to hurricanes to drakes. Having a tank with no speed penalty is so amazingly ****ing huge I have trouble comprehending how someone can whine about a lack of shield buffer implants (never mind that you can have rep tank + speed on cyclone/sleipnir and a few others).

Shield tanks do not need anything extra, and certainly not an extra ten or twenty percent EHP from low grades.

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2011.09.09 09:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Dynast
Shield buffering is now the default for almost all ships under battleship, from dramiels to vagas to cynabals to hurricanes to drakes. Having a tank with no speed penalty is so amazingly ****ing huge I have trouble comprehending how someone can whine about a lack of shield buffer implants (never mind that you can have rep tank + speed on cyclone/sleipnir and a few others).

Shield tanks do not need anything extra, and certainly not an extra ten or twenty percent EHP from low grades.
Armor HACs and Drake pilots would strongly disagree with your opinion on no drawbacks on shield tank.


 

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