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Mohingan Dark
Posted - 2011.09.05 03:58:00 - [1]
 

ive fiddled with trading on and off since i started playing a couple years ago, but every time i try i end up losing 5mil or so in brokers fee's, taxes, etc.
Basically all ive ever tried was in Jita and recently in dodixie (which net me 10mil in profits over 3 days, with a 500mil pocket)
I would just like to know if i should be trying in a non hub system to start out with, or if im just terribly bad at trading lol

Kei Darker
Posted - 2011.09.05 04:08:00 - [2]
 

train accounting to 5. broker relations to 5. margin trading to 5. then try again.

malaire
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:27:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: malaire on 05/09/2011 07:40:15
You don't need high skills to start trading. Go to smaller trading hub (like Oursulaert) and browse market for items which you can buy&sell for maybe 50% profit regularly.

This is how I started.

You might not make much profit in smaller hub, but at least you will make some profit and you get some experience about trading. And the competition isn't as bad as in bigger hubs.

With high profit margin you don't need to care about few percent you lose in broker fees and taxes.

Tekota
The Freighter Factory
Posted - 2011.09.05 15:54:00 - [4]
 

Why are you losing money? Is it because you failed to account for fees before you placed your orders or is it because after you got some stock purchased the market had moved down and you were forced to sell at a loss or break-even?

Before you do anything you really need to figure that one out. When you place a buy order how much is it really going to cost you? What will be your actual buy price? As a rough guide it'll be 1% higher than your nominal buying price (though as Kei noted, this can be reduced substantially through standings and Broker Relations skill). When you place a sell order how much are you really going to gain? Again, as a very rough guide you'll lose 2% of the nominal sale value in sales tax and broker fees (and again as Kei noted, this can be reduced through Accounting, Broker Relations and standings).

So as a *very* rough and ready guide until you work out your own fee situation relevant to your skills and standings, take your expected buy price and multiply by 1.03 to account for 3% loss in fees. Can you sell your stock for more than that figure?

Mohingan Dark II
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:25:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Tekota
Why are you losing money? Is it because you failed to account for fees before you placed your orders or is it because after you got some stock purchased the market had moved down and you were forced to sell at a loss or break-even?


most of the time ive lossed isk because after a few days of waiting on my orders to be filled, and adjusting the prices as needed, i tend to not see the point of making 4-5mil profit over that time.... so i just cancel the orders and accept the loss

That is probably cause i dont know what items to sell, or maybe im just not seeing the big picture, but i guess you learn as you go

Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:26:00 - [6]
 

To trade at reasonable profits in jita I would reccomend accounting + broker relations 5 plus alot of standings to both corp + faction. The standings are more important than the skills. Try for atleast 6 faction 8-9 corperation.

Then trade high volume items, alot. Your profit will be minimal, 1-5% per trade, but you can cycle ALOT of volume. For trading in Jita though I would suggest a larger wallet balance to make it worth the time. With 500mill your looking at just 2-3% profit per day with some reasonable order updating and not over 9000 orders on low volume items. Sounds good? thats only 10-15mill for 1 day of trading. Better to run a mission.

My recomendation is to run missions + cosmos missions. Run amarr cosmos aswell as caldari. By the end you should have +8 or more standing to faction and +9 or more to corperation. The cosmos missions will net you 2 implants, the +8% armour rep and a +mining one. I've forgotten its name. The rewards for the cosmos missions in total will be in excess of 2bn and then you get the standings aswell.

At the end of this you will have enough capital to trade at similar profit levels as running missions. From there the sky is the limit.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.09.06 11:32:00 - [7]
 

Let me get to the meaty part.

Market skills should give you bout 125 market slots and taxes resembling .6 and .8%, really that's all a station trader really need when you have less then 8 billion to flip.

You should hit the items with 6-35% Price difference between them and if you are unsure weather some ones manipulating the price or not, go to the Price_check chat room and ask for 2 other places in eve on a price check for that item (Don't forget to help 5 others for each time you are helped).

Have patience, listen to other experienced merchants and you could turn that 500 into 10 billion in a couple of months.

Nahm Pran
Posted - 2011.09.06 19:39:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Nahm Pran on 06/09/2011 22:11:26
If you lost money trading - you are bad at it. You should find a new occupation. And those people advising you to accept 1 - 5% profit on each trade are full of it, they must be trying to discourage you (and others)from getting into trading. Your profit should be 50% - 1000% depending on the price of the item sold. Also look at amount of isk made, not just the percentage of profit.

But to your question - Smaller markets are less crowded thus less frustrating, and easier to trade in. large hubs have higher volume but (seemingly) a million people trading to contend with. Crowded hubs require more attention and it is easier to loose isk there if you are not careful. Be careful (do some research) and you should never loose isk in trading - unless you are very bad at it.

Nahm Pran
Posted - 2011.09.06 19:42:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Nahm Pran on 06/09/2011 22:11:08

Elise DarkStar
Posted - 2011.09.06 19:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Atima
To trade at reasonable profits in jita I would reccomend accounting + broker relations 5 plus alot of standings to both corp + faction. The standings are more important than the skills. Try for atleast 6 faction 8-9 corperation.

Then trade high volume items, alot. Your profit will be minimal, 1-5% per trade, but you can cycle ALOT of volume. For trading in Jita though I would suggest a larger wallet balance to make it worth the time. With 500mill your looking at just 2-3% profit per day with some reasonable order updating and not over 9000 orders on low volume items. Sounds good? thats only 10-15mill for 1 day of trading. Better to run a mission.

My recomendation is to run missions + cosmos missions. Run amarr cosmos aswell as caldari. By the end you should have +8 or more standing to faction and +9 or more to corperation. The cosmos missions will net you 2 implants, the +8% armour rep and a +mining one. I've forgotten its name. The rewards for the cosmos missions in total will be in excess of 2bn and then you get the standings aswell.

At the end of this you will have enough capital to trade at similar profit levels as running missions. From there the sky is the limit.


This is pretty much exactly what I did. Run missions and trade in the mission hubs at the same time using the remote skills. Then when you have killer standings and a nice fat wallet, plop you ass in Jita and trade at whatever balance of income and burnout you can handle.

Don't burn yourself out. Better to go at a pace that you can handle for a long time because once you stop, your odds of starting up again are extremely low. Think longterm and go for a sum where you will never have to really worry about making money again.

Atima
Minmatar
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.09.07 08:15:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Atima on 07/09/2011 08:15:08
Originally by: Nahm Pran
Edited by: Nahm Pran on 06/09/2011 22:11:26
If you lost money trading - you are bad at it. You should find a new occupation. And those people advising you to accept 1 - 5% profit on each trade are full of it, they must be trying to discourage you (and others)from getting into trading. Your profit should be 50% - 1000% depending on the price of the item sold. Also look at amount of isk made, not just the percentage of profit.

But to your question - Smaller markets are less crowded thus less frustrating, and easier to trade in. large hubs have higher volume but (seemingly) a million people trading to contend with. Crowded hubs require more attention and it is easier to loose isk there if you are not careful. Be careful (do some research) and you should never loose isk in trading - unless you are very bad at it.


Find me a market where I can use more than 200million at 50-1000% profit margins that isn't regional buyorders at stupid prices. I'm sure you can make 1000% profit doing that, if you like flying 12 jumps to pick up 10mill worth of crap because lets face it, you have to WAIT for the crap to build up to make collection worthwhile. That can take alot of time and well... Oppertunity cost my friend.


 

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