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blankseplocked Does CCP have a clear policy on PvE ship reimbursements after a crash?
 
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AmarrettoDiAmarr
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:38:00 - [1]
 

Q: what is risk in running L4s on a computer that crashes every hour or two. Prior to Tuesday, I would get a crash every couple of days and almost always when docking. After the patch, it is every hour or two and not just docking any more. So I could run L4s and RNG smile on me and never have a problem, or survive the problem (well I had my over tanked BS survive but I now regard Hobgoblin IIs more as ammo than modules.)

I could stop running L4s (and obviously any PvP) until the crashes quit happening. But who knows how long that will be?

But if I continue undocking and at some point the law of averages gets to me, does CCP have a policy on what is reimbursed? I sympathize with the GMs; 99.9999% of ship losses are lag/bugs, never pilot error. Nor should Alt-F4 be a substitute for insurance. I just hate those situations where it depends on which GM you get and the mood they're in as to what outcome you get. But I am not sure I want to risk a cheap-to-you, expensive-to-me, considerable-grinding-to-replace BS on when the lag happens. Nor do I want to pay for a game I can't undock in.

So any insight on what CCP does?

I have two different Mac computers, desktop and laptop, with different processors and video cards and up to date OS/drivers with the latest patches. Both have 4GB directly connected to a two month old gaming router connected to 60mbps cable modem. They both show the same behavior; common denominator is EvE.

Tom Gerard
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:42:00 - [2]
 

The logs show:
















































































Nothing.

shady alt
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:51:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
Q: what is risk in running L4s on a computer that crashes every hour or two. Prior to Tuesday, I would get a crash every couple of days and almost always when docking. After the patch, it is every hour or two and not just docking any more. So I could run L4s and RNG smile on me and never have a problem, or survive the problem (well I had my over tanked BS survive but I now regard Hobgoblin IIs more as ammo than modules.)

I could stop running L4s (and obviously any PvP) until the crashes quit happening. But who knows how long that will be?

But if I continue undocking and at some point the law of averages gets to me, does CCP have a policy on what is reimbursed? I sympathize with the GMs; 99.9999% of ship losses are lag/bugs, never pilot error. Nor should Alt-F4 be a substitute for insurance. I just hate those situations where it depends on which GM you get and the mood they're in as to what outcome you get. But I am not sure I want to risk a cheap-to-you, expensive-to-me, considerable-grinding-to-replace BS on when the lag happens. Nor do I want to pay for a game I can't undock in.

So any insight on what CCP does?

I have two different Mac computers, desktop and laptop, with different processors and video cards and up to date OS/drivers with the latest patches. Both have 4GB directly connected to a two month old gaming router connected to 60mbps cable modem. They both show the same behavior; common denominator is EvE.


try forwarding port 26000 solved my and others dc issues. For a guide check here.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:52:00 - [4]
 

You bought a mac (2!?) to play games on, and you blame CCP?

Anyway, the policy is not to reimburse, else everyone who lost a ship would claim a crash happened.

"The logs show nothing" may be a meme around here, but it is literally what happens when the client just stops communicating with the server. They cannot, by design of internet communication protocol, see whether you unplugged your router or the client crashed, neither can can they realistically come to your house and diagnose what hardware issues you are having.

Eve runs fine on my friends Macbook pro, without incident.

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:55:00 - [5]
 

Reimbursements are for the weak.

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:45:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 04/09/2011 21:46:49
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 04/09/2011 21:45:21
Local crashes caused by your hardwware or software are almost never reimbursed, since it is impossible for CCP to verify whether your computer suffered a real crash or if you just pressed the power button. My opinion is that if you know your computer is not entirely stable, you assume all of the risk when playing EVE on it.

If you're experiencing frequent crashes, run the logserver and file a bug report when your computer crashes.

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.05 01:52:00 - [7]
 

Quote:
I have two different Mac computers, ........ They both show the same behavior; common denominator is EvE.


Common denominator is MaC. Typo?

Mallak Azaria
Three 6 MaFiA
KRYSIS.
Posted - 2011.09.06 05:35:00 - [8]
 

Buy a PC.

Until then, 'Our logs show nothing'

Tribunia
Posted - 2011.09.06 06:55:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr
But who knows how long that will be?


Do you maintain your Macintosh by yourself, ie reinstall OS / drivers? If you do, consider installing driver and OS updates. Possibly even reinstall the entire OS from scratch, on an empty formatted partition of your harddrive.

Also, run hardware diagnostics.

If you are serious about getting EVE Online properly up and running tho, just go pick up a 1-2 year old HP for chop change and get cranking!

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.09.06 07:39:00 - [10]
 

Note: I have not looked into this specific case and I will not. What I provide here is the general rule.

We always must verify the cause of a loss with any server side information that we have. Usually this means that we can only reimburse losses that were caused by an error server side as we have no way of knowing what happens on a customer's computer. We cannot see the difference between a client side crash or someone pulling their network cable; the only thing we see is that the client disconnects. There are (rather rare) situations where we have enough secondary evidence to still be able to reimburse, but this is not something you should hope for if the crash was caused by anything other then our server.

Because of the above our reimbursement policy specifically does not cover client side issues or any issues not related to our server. We know that this policy sucks and can get rather frustrating if your hardware/software clashes with our client build or if you have an unstable connection to our server, but it is the only way we can make sure that everyone is treated equally and fairly and that no one can abuse our policies to always receive reimbursement (by pulling your network cable before a loss, for example).

We are always looking for more ways to find enough proof to allow reimbursement, but for most client side issues this is still quite hard to do.

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:01:00 - [11]
 

^^^ TL;DR

Quote:
'Our logs show nothing'




GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.09.06 08:07:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: GM Homonoia on 06/09/2011 08:07:41
Originally by: Si Omega
^^^ TL;DR

Quote:
'Our logs show nothing'






Not about your computer, no. I doubt most people would like to give us unlimited access to their machines. Now, when it comes to our server, our logs show an incredible wealth of information. The EVE meme of 'the logs show nothing' is actually a misinterpretation of the fact that our logs (for quite obvious reasons) do not cover systems outside our server. If anyone knows of a way for us to log stuff outside our server (besides the stuff that any internet corporation can log) that will not break the laws of physic or result in nasty legal situations I would love to know about it.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:07:00 - [13]
 

Quote:
Does CCP have a clear policy on reimbursements?

Yes, it's "we don't give a ****".

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.09.06 08:10:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx
Quote:
Does CCP have a clear policy on reimbursements?

Yes, it's "we don't give a ****".


We honestly try our best to find reasons to reimburse. Trust me when I say that my job is a lot easier when I can reimburse then when I have to deny reimbursement. I like happy customers that say 'thank you' as opposed to people arguing and using abusive language.

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:14:00 - [15]
 

Personally I've always found the policy fair, I lost one whilst ****ed no dice, lost another to lag got it back!

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:17:00 - [16]
 

I'd streamline the process.

1 Reimbursement per 6 months.

Everyone knows what to expect. Clear. Concise. No fuzzy logic no one can see.

Just a database of account and when it last got a reimbursement.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:21:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
If anyone knows of a way for us to log stuff outside our server (besides the stuff that any internet corporation can log) that will not break the laws of physic or result in nasty legal situations I would love to know about it.


Ask EA how they do it, maybe?

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:36:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: AnzacPaul on 06/09/2011 08:37:04
Edited by: AnzacPaul on 06/09/2011 08:36:26
Originally by: GM Homonoia


We honestly try our best to find reasons to reimburse. Trust me when I say that my job is a lot easier when I can reimburse then when I have to deny reimbursement. I like happy customers that say 'thank you' as opposed to people arguing and using abusive language.


It's always frustrating when you get the same message back every time "the logs show nothing", though. Especially when you only petition for reimbursement when you seriously think that it's not on your end. I have lost hundreds of ships since I started playing, and have probably petitioned 5(or so) times, and getting the familiar "why we don't doubt what you are saying, we have no way of proving it, therefore you must be wrong", is kind of a kick in the codgers.


Then again, internet spaceships is serious business.

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:40:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
Yes, it's "we don't give a ****".


Quote:
...as opposed to people arguing and using abusive language.


Lolz. How succint. Perfect wording. Perfect timing.



Myfanwy Heimdal
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:12:00 - [20]
 

I clearly must have been writing petitions to the wrong GMs. I've lost lots of ships over the years and when, not too long ago, I put in a petition for a reinbursement for a loss of ship caused by a well known game bug I got the usual, "Our logs show nothing".

I believe that the GMs were covering up the bug and denying that it existed.

That was one and only request in the years of playing and perhaps I won't bother any more.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:17:00 - [21]
 

... and so predictable. This is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does, and less to what they say.

From previous attempted GM justifications we know that they have an average of 5 min per petition. We also know that in fact there is so much data in the logs that they are overwhelmed. So yes, if it's taking too long to verify a claim they go "ah **** this" and start to copy and paste the standard apologetic denial mail.

Also, the GMs attempt to get some empathy from players is cute.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:29:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2011 09:31:57
Originally by: Si Omega
Common denominator is MaC. Typo?
Yes. MaC is a typo. It's spelled “Mac”, short for Macintosh.. At least it's a more creative than confusing a brand of computers with a hardware device address. ugh
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
Buy a PC.
He already has two — they're from Apple. Oh wait, don't tell me you've been tricked by the silly commercials. Crying or Very sad

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.09.06 09:30:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Myfanwy Heimdal
I clearly must have been writing petitions to the wrong GMs. I've lost lots of ships over the years and when, not too long ago, I put in a petition for a reinbursement for a loss of ship caused by a well known game bug I got the usual, "Our logs show nothing".


If this is correct then one of two things may be applicable:
1. The bug may be known but we have no way of verifying that you were affected by it (for example, it is a client side bug for which the symptoms are not visible on the server).
2. The GM made a mistake (which of course happens) and you should ask for escalation

Originally by: Myfanwy Heimdal

I believe that the GMs were covering up the bug and denying that it existed.

That was one and only request in the years of playing and perhaps I won't bother any more.


We never cover up bugs. A GM may not have understood the situation properly, which sometimes happens as we are human, but covering up a bug has no advantages for us at all. I'd rather had all bugs were known and easily verifiable as that would make reimbursement a whole lot easier.

Whenever you think "It must be a conspiracy!", please remember that we are humans with regular jobs that rather do our jobs properly then enter some sort of conspiracy to mess with people simply for the sake of messing with people. Humans sometimes make mistakes and that is exactly why we have an escalation option.

Alissa Solette
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:31:00 - [24]
 

The policy is easy:

1.) Wait for a reimbursement petition to arrive

2.) Don't read what the player wrote, instead post a copy & paste response that has nothing to do with anything.

3.) Hope the player gives up due to the unbelievable level of your own incompetence

4.) If you can't get rid of the player that way then you're gonna have to go back and actually read the petition text

5.) Play world of tanks at work for 5 weeks

6.) Copy & paste a response that says "Our logs don't show anything but buy a new pair of pants in the NeX"

7.) Go back to calling your department "customer support" and play more world of tanks. That IS-7 won't grind itself after all.

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.09.06 09:34:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: GM Homonoia on 06/09/2011 09:46:02
Edited by: GM Homonoia on 06/09/2011 09:41:52
Edited by: GM Homonoia on 06/09/2011 09:39:50
Originally by: Aineko Macx
... and so predictable. This is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does, and less to what they say.

From previous attempted GM justifications we know that they have an average of 5 min per petition. We also know that in fact there is so much data in the logs that they are overwhelmed. So yes, if it's taking too long to verify a claim they go "ah **** this" and start to copy and paste the standard apologetic denial mail.

Also, the GMs attempt to get some empathy from players is cute.


This is pertinently untrue. If you had read my post properly (the one that you are referring to), you would have known that most cases only take about 5-20 minutes to properly look into, but some may take hours and when it does need hours to resolve properly we do take those hours. Next time you try to quote me, please quote me properly and do not take my words out of context. Frankly, I resent the accusation.

If you find the a GM made a mistake, ask for escalation; that is your right and the best way to get an issue resolved when mistakes are made.

Edit: Adding link to proper post.
Edit: I fail at editing my posts, argh those typos.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:38:00 - [26]
 

I have one question, if you don't mind:

If a player runs EVE's logserver application and the crash happens due to client error/bug and not because someone pulled the plug, would it in some cases be possible to detect a bug and reimburse the loss?

I'm not talking about all cases where logserver logs are included. I'm more thinking about does the GM team that works on reimbursement have tools to investigate logserver submitted logs and in some cases approve reimbursement.

Thank you.

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:39:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
We honestly try our best to find reasons to reimburse.


no...you really dont.

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.09.06 09:41:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: The Offerer
I have one question, if you don't mind:

If a player runs EVE's logserver application and the crash happens due to client error/bug and not because someone pulled the plug, would it in some cases be possible to detect a bug and reimburse the loss?

I'm not talking about all cases where logserver logs are included. I'm more thinking about does the GM team that works on reimbursement have tools to investigate logserver submitted logs and in some cases approve reimbursement.

Thank you.


Do we have tools? Yes, we do.

Can we reimburse when the attached logserver logs are the only ones available (in other words, a client side issue with no related server side logs)? No, as the one submitting the logserver logs can modify them first.

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:43:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: The Offerer on 06/09/2011 09:44:00
Edited by: The Offerer on 06/09/2011 09:43:40
Originally by: GM Homonoia
Originally by: The Offerer
I have one question, if you don't mind:

If a player runs EVE's logserver application and the crash happens due to client error/bug and not because someone pulled the plug, would it in some cases be possible to detect a bug and reimburse the loss?

I'm not talking about all cases where logserver logs are included. I'm more thinking about does the GM team that works on reimbursement have tools to investigate logserver submitted logs and in some cases approve reimbursement.

Thank you.


Do we have tools? Yes, we do.

Can we reimburse when the attached logserver logs are the only ones available (in other words, a client side issue with no related server side logs)? No, as the one submitting the logserver logs can modify them first.


Thank you for the answer.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:43:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Next time you try to quote me, please quote me properly and do not take my words out of context.


Ah, you must be new to this forum.


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