open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked Capacitor bug? Cap stability numbers are FUBAR
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 18:57:00 - [1]
 

Okay, I am new to flying missile boats but seem to have a huge discrepancy in capacitor stability. The fit, below, is 41% / 90% cap stable with the shield booster on / off per EFT. In-game, the ship fitting window says 37% cap stable. That number does not change in-game when I am undocked and activate all modules. Okay, 37 vs 41 is close enough, however, when I activate the shield booster, my cap drops like a rock. When I turn it off, is recharges fairly quick.

I am not looking for fitting suggestions. What I have is a compromise for several reasons. What I am curious about is why the capacitor stability numbers are so FUBAR and whether or not there is a bug in the software. The fitting, below, is far from cap stable in practice even though EFT and the in-game fitting window say it is stable.

[Tengu, L4 mission hack]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Flux I
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Flux I

Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
Small Tractor Beam I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers


LLoyd Thomson
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:10:00 - [2]
 

You spent half a billion on a T3 and fit it like a cheap throw away PvP frig?

Get the guts and buy some faction stuff.

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:23:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
You spent half a billion on a T3 and fit it like a cheap throw away PvP frig?

Get the guts and buy some faction stuff.


Get some brains and learn to read, troll. Up front, I stated the fit was a comprise and not great. That is not the issue. Grow a pair and address the underlying question about the huge discrepancy in cap stability.

Eiyla Rindour
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:41:00 - [4]
 

EveHQ says its capstable with subsystem level 4s. Problem is nobody else is gonna actually fit this up and test it...small booster setup can do this with better tank and more dps, and still be capstable.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:47:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 03/09/2011 19:50:36

For what it is worth, my hisec mission alt used to use this fitting. You must keep moving or it doesn't have enough tank to tank everything... and I mean everything; I ignore triggers and just shoot stuff, smallest to largest, pulling entire rooms. Orbit the warp-in beacon at 5km, or acceleration gates at 500m.

[Tengu, Cheap Mission]
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Shield Boost Amplifier I
Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:50:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Eiyla Rindour
EveHQ says its capstable with subsystem level 4s. Problem is nobody else is gonna actually fit this up and test it...small booster setup can do this with better tank and more dps, and still be capstable.

Thank you for taking the time to look at this! Now 3 sources say it should be stable, yet in-game it is far from it. I am basically looking for sufficient information to submit a bug report. I have not flown many missile boats, so first step is to check with larger community to make sure I have not missed something basic.

/salute

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:57:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 03/09/2011 19:50:36

For what it is worth, my hisec mission alt used to use this fitting. You must keep moving or it doesn't have enough tank to tank everything... and I mean everything; I ignore triggers and just shoot stuff, smallest to largest, pulling entire rooms. Orbit the warp-in beacon at 5km, or acceleration gates at 500m.


I appreciate the info, but you missed the question - why is my posted fit in practice not cap stable yet all indicators are that it should be.

With my posted fit, it is what I had lying around to learn to fly a missile boat - i.e. don't put faction gear on it until you know what you are doing. Its main duty will be part of a RR or logi wormhole fleet, which has a different setup. Hence the rigs are not quite right for a mission fit. The posted setup is just to get my feet wet in the tengu with L4 missions. In that process, I noticed that cap drops through the floor when it should not. That is the issue I am trying to bring out in this thread.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:03:00 - [8]
 

Hey, are you sure you are using your skills in EFT and not all skills V?

Also, there is a peak regen for cap, the booster might actually be taking you straight under it.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:13:00 - [9]
 

As already mentioned, the booster might be taking a big enough chunk out to drop you under peak recharge in a single shot, which will destroy cap stability.

Otherwise, I have to ask: are you using it against Blood Raiders? Is there any chance what so ever that you're being neuted during your test?

William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:29:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Backfyre
A lot of reasonable talk


Ignore the loot pinata enthusiasts. They'd probably just run a locator and gank you anyway.
Also, lol at people suggesting fits in the first place for a simple capacitor issue.

Now, is your capacitor display in the fitting window showing as stable? If so, it's probably a bug. If not, try offlining the tractor beam, check again.

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:42:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: William Cooly
Originally by: Backfyre
A lot of reasonable talk


Ignore the loot pinata enthusiasts. They'd probably just run a locator and gank you anyway.
Also, lol at people suggesting fits in the first place for a simple capacitor issue.

Now, is your capacitor display in the fitting window showing as stable? If so, it's probably a bug. If not, try offlining the tractor beam, check again.

From the fitting window, it shows 37% cap stable with all modules on.

With the tests, there were no neuts involved. That was the first thing I checked.

At this point, think I will go ahead and submit a bug report.

Thank you for the responses!

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:56:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 03/09/2011 20:56:42
It's very possible, like someone above stated, that the cap per cycle drops you below peak recharge. On max skills your fit should bottom out at 55%, if you state that it's 41/33% in your case I have to assume that your cap related skills are crappy.

That big booster uses (assuming zero skills) 160 cap. Total cap is going to be around 2k for that Tengu (again, depending on skills, which I don't know) meaning per cycle that booster eats about 7% cap. So that's the likely culprit; because of the big gulps of cap it uses it dips below peak recharge too much resulting in being unstable. EFT and ingame only check for total cap/second regen and usage, it does not account for how activation itself might affect stuff.

That or you're not using your actual skills&implants in EFT, in which case this is all moot.


Onto an entirely different point; Being this passive/aggressive won't get you much help and your "I fit this compromise for a reason" is just nonsense as it's no compromise, it's just crap. Would you have fitted this way to try and find the difference between what you get and what EFT stated then I could agree but then you wouldn't use the word "compromise" and you'd use a less weird fit for it.

So Let me be passive/aggressive as well; A LVL 4 fit Tengu that doesn't have 6 launchers and rigor rigs is a disgrace, anyone who tries to fit like that has zero clue on what he's doing.

Wylee Coyote
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:59:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Hey, are you sure you are using your skills in EFT and not all skills V?


^ This.


Also (been awhile since i've perused it) i remember reading posts in the EFT thread (second page of this very same subforum as of right now) that others have reported a discrepency in cap shown/recharge rate between EFT and EVE itself. Check that thread for yourself.

Lastly, please remember that EFT only shows/has skills related to fitting, and therefore does not factor in a lot of skills dependi on what specific modules you fit.

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Lilith IshanoyaSo Let me be passive/aggressive as well; A LVL 4 fit Tengu that doesn't have 6 launchers and rigor rigs is a disgrace, anyone who tries to fit like that has zero clue on what he's doing.[/quote

LOL! I guess I deserved that Very Happy With the tengu, no, I'm figuring it out. The base subsystems and rigs are designed for a RR WH fit so 1 high slot goes to a RR. For L4 missions, I'd rather have another laucher and maybe even different subsystems. /shrug I do like your feedback.

Passive aggressive? Yep. Sometimes I get sick of the flippant "your fitting sucks" response on the Eve forums in response to an unrelated question. The question in this thread was about discrepancies in cap stability. My fitting is poor - I don't even have all T2 modules. It is a compromise in that I am taking a WH base and checking it out in a L4 mission before putting it to the real test. Is the compromise legit? IMO - yes.

With EFT, I imported my skills - mostly L4 on subsystems, L5 on all cap skills, L5 on shield recharge, L4 on shield management. Hey, I'm an armor tanker who was told to fly a tengu for c5 WHs. Will I lose it? Likely Laughing

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:16:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Wylee Coyote
Lastly, please remember that EFT only shows/has skills related to fitting, and therefore does not factor in a lot of skills dependi on what specific modules you fit.

Aye, but what about the fitting window within Eve saying the fit is cap stable? When my armor tank fits say cap stable they are in fact cap stable.

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:25:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 03/09/2011 22:24:33
It also wouldn't be a good fit for WHs either. If you're trying to solo in a C2-3 (and would you want to use a T3 for it) the Legion would be great, the proteus would be crap and the Tengu would work fine. If you're going to do C4 and up you won't use a local tank at all as you'll be in a team.

Have a look here, if you use some cheap cap implants (CC4 CR4) you should be cap stable on decent skills. But again, if you're going to do C4 or above forget it, you'll need RR to make that happen in which case you'll fit for resists/EHP.

I have not seen any noticeable issues with cap problems in EFT, not saying they're not there but I've never encountered something that wasn't perfectly explainable. Lots of people yell "bug!" a lot while it's not necessarily the case, so I really do think it's an issue with the cap cycle usage or your skills/implants.

More edit, You want an RR fit... lemme work on that for a bit.

RR fit, Simple T2 nothing fancy.

[Tengu, C3 RR]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Cap Recharger II

Medium Shield Transporter II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir



You could do this with just two tengus like that but as with all RR; more = better.

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:43:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lilith Ishanoya
Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 03/09/2011 21:28:03
It also wouldn't be a good fit for WHs either.

The fit I posted was not the WH fit. Our WH fit goes for EHP and RR. Modules are a bit different and the subsystems may even change. My build is based upon a preliminary WH build with a mutation (module change) to not completely suck in L4 mission trials.

With RR, we have 5 launchers in highs and a large RR. Mids are fit for EHP and balanced resists. Lows are fit for a balance of damage (BCS) and cap to keep the RR stable. Our fleet fit has not self boost and the passive also sucks. Optimal? Who knows.

Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Also, there is a peak regen for cap, the booster might actually be taking you straight under it.


This.

Every single time, this.

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:45:00 - [19]
 

I really doubt you need large Xfers to pull this off, if you check the fit in my massively edited post you'll find one that should work nicely.

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:49:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Also, there is a peak regen for cap, the booster might actually be taking you straight under it.


This.

Every single time, this.

Okay, explain as if to a child... Laughing Regen is a fixed rate, booster imposes an instantaneous delta. Or is there a timing issue I do not understand? I will not take offense at starting replys with "hey, dumb****"...

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.09.03 21:57:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Lilith Ishanoya on 03/09/2011 22:21:58
It's exactly what I explained. What EFT and ingame show you is a simple cap/second usage compared to regen. Cap usage is calculated as an average cap/s whereas cap regen is that non-linear graph I'm sure you know about. So all EFT/ingame does is compare at what point, above peak, usage = regen. If it doesn't it'll state to be unstable, if it is it'll give you the % at which they are equal.

It's exactly the same as DPS vs volley; being able to rep up or GET repped up is cool, as long as the volley damage doesn't put you in a pod. That large shield booster has an insane cap "volley" compared to the total cap you have so at that point the cap regen starts to struggle but it could hang in there.

The problem happens if you're already dangerously close to peak regen and that cap "volley" drops you below peak, meaning that it punches trough the regen and thus makes it unstable.

- Edit for clarity -

Cap regen is NOT a fixed number, it peaks at 25-30%. Below 25 it drops like a stone and above 30 it drops off as well. Here's what you should know about cap regen (and shield regen for that matter, they have the same graph). See the y-axis as percentages

Graph


More editing (I'm on a roll tonight), I updated the RR fit once again, optimising left and right.

Backfyre
Posted - 2011.09.03 23:27:00 - [22]
 

Thanks, Lilith. Dumb****s (me) can actually learn something.

1. cap regen is a non-linear function of cap

2. % stable refers to the percentage of cap at which you will stabilize with all modules running and no external influences (neuts)

All is working as intended. The only thing FUBAR is my understanding of the mechanics.

Lilith - check your wallent for my gratitude after a few...

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2011.09.04 06:12:00 - [23]
 

Fitting Flux Coils doesn't exactly help you either as they reduce max cap making it more likely to go jump over the peak. I would take a look at cap relays instead. Yes they reduce shield boost a little but this downside is usually more worth it than that of flux coils.

Lilith Ishanoya
Lai Dai Shipments
Posted - 2011.09.04 12:47:00 - [24]
 

Ok, that wasn't necessary. Not going to complain ofc :P

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.04 15:34:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Backfyre
Okay, I am new to flying missile boats but seem to have a huge discrepancy in capacitor stability. The fit, below, is 41% / 90% cap stable with the shield booster on / off per EFT. In-game, the ship fitting window says 37% cap stable. That number does not change in-game when I am undocked and activate all modules. Okay, 37 vs 41 is close enough, however, when I activate the shield booster, my cap drops like a rock. When I turn it off, is recharges fairly quick.


Really Dumb Question:
When you undock and turn everything on, are you letting the capacitor drop to zero?

Or are you just seeing the cap drop from 100% to 50% and freaking out?


Again, this is a "Is it plugged in?" kind of question.


Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.09.05 00:49:00 - [26]
 

To the OP, you might find it better to fit one or two of the cap safeguard rigs for your shield booster, in lieu of the CCCs. It is true that the shield booster takes a big chunk of cap every x seconds, rather than EFTs calculations of x amount of cap divided by duration time = y cap per second.

The cap safeguards *should* help you get better cap stability than CCCs, as long as you are decently cap stable without the booster.

Alternatively, you could try the Obfuscation manifold rather than the CPU subsystem, like this:

[Tengu, L4 mission hack]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Cap Recharger II

'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher, Scourge Heavy Missile
Small Tractor Beam I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Electronics - Obfuscation Manifold
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

All @ 5, this is cap stable at 63% as opposed to 56% with yoursetup, all @ 5. Not alot of difference, but remember that cap rechargers are better than flux coils and especially CPRs.


grumpyguts1
Posted - 2011.09.05 01:47:00 - [27]
 

I think the answer you want is simple.. it is a bug. If the in game fit window says its stable, its stable.. no matter in what order, all together, etc you turn on your modules. The only time this will change is if you have your modules on and start a long warp. Try clearing you cache, this helped a corp mate. If that doesn't work, log a petition.

And don't listen to the trolls, if you happy with your fit, use it, each to his own. Fly what you comfortable with and experiment when you got the isk to replace it.

IQ 001
Gallente
2plus2isfive
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.09.05 08:08:00 - [28]
 

i havent seen it mentioned here, but there is sometimes a bug (fixed repeatedly) that causes ur ship not to activate its bonuses when boarded from a POS.

were you boarding from a POS at any stage as well?


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only