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The Ban Hammer
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: The Ban Hammer on 02/09/2011 21:35:32
Hundreds of accounts have now been banned without warning or justification as a result of a new meta-gaming tactic involving the new "Report Bot" command introduced in CCP Pollux's recent devblog. It seems that "the players reported using this feature are automatically investigated. If a reported player is identified as being a bot..." they are banned with increasing penalties. This "automatic investigation" appears to not contain any human element and merely checks against some server-side heuristic for account similarity, related activity and behavior, log-in timestamps, etc. As a result the "Report Bot" mechanic is being used by groups of players in order to ban multiboxers who will automatically satisfy CCP's similarity criteria and become automatically banned.

At best this seems to represent poorly implemented moderation laziness by CCP, and at worst a complete failure to understand that multiboxing DOES NOT equal botting. To further add insult to injury, the process by which you multiboxers may now be ninja banned is totally invisible. One day you'll wake up and try to sign in and it will tell you your password does not work. You don't even get told you're banned. You have to attempt to sign into the Account Management page at which point it will suggest your password is incorrect, or that you are banned. One would think that a game company would have the decency to send an email to registered email address stating "Your account has been banned for X time because of reason Y" but they don't. You can't even log into the Account Management page in order to file a petition from the account.

The progress of getting your accounts unbanned also seems to be a very long arduous process which may or may not even succeed. Based on petition times and day of the week you could be waiting for many days before anyone even responds you to tell you WHY you got banned. In the mean time your characters stop training, your in-space assets become vulnerably undefended, manufacturing/research, and any plans you had fail entirely. For all we know it still consumes time off your subscription as well. For a company that responds within minutes to Stuck and Billing petitions you'd think clearing wrongfully convicted accounts would also be high on the petition priority list (as then they can get back to paying you again).

CCP, you really need to take another look at this "Report Bot" mechanic, as it is being abused and you're banning your most loyal sets of multiboxers on the whims of griefers who are using the tool to gain unfair advantages ingame.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:41:00 - [2]
 

Sympathy levels incredibly low, captain!

Doctor Dremo
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:46:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Doctor Dremo on 02/09/2011 21:48:51
In all fairness, when the "Report a Bot" program was initiated into the interface, CCP stated that "abusing it would have dire consequence."

However, they did not state what said consequences would or could be, while clearly implying that someone reported as a bot would get banned. I would really like to have CCP more accurately define what those consequences would be for people who abuse the reporting system, perhaps to the extent of clearly stating that any individual or group of individuals who knowingly abusing the "Report a Bot" feature to gain a gameplay advantage against their enemies will face the same consequences that a real bot would face: banning.

Relatedly, if there is an automated bot reporting system in place, should there not also be some automated means by which a player can defend themselves against those reports before or even after they are banned? And please don't say "petition it" because we all know that CCP is not very fast when it comes to petition response time.


The automated system is great, don't get me wrong. However, it is open to rampant abuse, even more so that CCP has not fully disclosed the significant details listed above about falsifying reports, nor have they provided an avenue for defense against claims.


Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:01:00 - [4]
 

If you use multiple accounts where one of them does nothing but farm all day for PLEXes, how are you different than a bot?

Sure, you don't deserve to get perma banned for that, but you do deserve a good kick in the balls from CCP.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:02:00 - [5]
 

I don't know that CCP is against botting so much as they appear to be against mining in general.

The problem of griefers abusing the "report bot" feature was a guaranteed result of its implementation, CCP put it in anyways so they could claim they were "doing something" about the problem.

"Working as intended"


Doctor Dremo
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:10:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Doctor Dremo on 02/09/2011 22:10:45
Originally by: Ephemeron
If you use multiple accounts where one of them does nothing but farm all day for PLEXes, how are you different than a bot?

Sure, you don't deserve to get perma banned for that, but you do deserve a good kick in the balls from CCP.

I really have no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that someone who plays EVE all day deserves to get banned for it?



Related to mining, I do know that multi-box miners in particular get accused of botting regularly by other players who don't seem to know how to engage their brain. Some player sees 8 mackinaws in an 0.0 belt somewhere, and then sees them all warp out at exactly the same time, and says "omg bot!"

The real reason that they all warped out at the same time, ofc, is that a squad or wing commander initiated a squad/wing warp, and hey, guess what, 8 mackinaws with identically trained skills will all warp at exactly the same time. True story.

Again, I feel that the "Report a Bot" tool is an excellent addition to the arsenal we as players have to fight back against bots taking over our game, controlling our markets, and deflating the relative value of ISK. I do not, however, believe it is any way acceptable to have a single false-positive botting report result in the ban of a single EVE online player or account.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:21:00 - [7]
 

it depends how they play EVE

If someone does nothing but farming, they must be punished.
I'm also in favor of empire Carebear Abuse Day - where CCP resets all system security to 0.0 for 1 day per month YARRRR!!

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:26:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 02/09/2011 22:27:16
Quote:
This "automatic investigation" appears to not contain any human element and merely checks against some server-side heuristic for account similarity, related activity and behavior, log-in timestamps, etc.

This information is critical to your argument yet it assumed. What information led you to this belief?

Originally by: Ephemeron
it depends how they play EVE

If someone does nothing but farming, they must be punished.
I'm also in favor of empire Carebear Abuse Day - where CCP resets all system security to 0.0 for 1 day per month YARRRR!!


0.0 is for carebears. It even looks like a bear emote.

I want -1 status for a day. Puts hair on your chest.

Doctor Dremo
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:29:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Doctor Dremo on 02/09/2011 22:30:26
Edited by: Doctor Dremo on 02/09/2011 22:29:51
Originally by: Ephemeron
it depends how they play EVE

If someone does nothing but farming, they must be punished.
I'm also in favor of empire Carebear Abuse Day - where CCP resets all system security to 0.0 for 1 day per month YARRRR!!

Well don't go losing another officer fit vargur about if/when they don't do that.



Most PVE activities in EVE, specifically belt ratting, running cosmic anomalies, incursions, and complexes (though not actually scanning them), and even mining all are composed of continually repeatable motions. Any mindless, caffeine infused zombie can point and click their way through these activities for hours on end. They certainly may feel like a robot while doing it, but it in no way breaks any sort of EULA restrictions from CCP.

The only botting program they are running is their brain, highly detuned to mindlessly follow the same boring pve content again and again.

If that is what you object, too, then again, I still really have no idea what point you are trying to make or how it relates to the topic of the op posting.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:33:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Ephemeron
it depends how they play EVE

If someone does nothing but farming, they must be punished.
I'm also in favor of empire Carebear Abuse Day - where CCP resets all system security to 0.0 for 1 day per month YARRRR!!


0.0 is for carebears. It even looks like a bear emote.

I want -1 status for a day. Puts hair on your chest.
I also agree that for some people, 0.0 carebearing is actualy SAFER than high sec empire - since there are no suicide ganks and war decs to worry about. That any potential enemy is scouted 10+ jumps before they actually get to their system, and instead of using risky stargates they can use faster and more secure jump bridges

All that rampant carebearing is made possible by the fact that CCP actively encourages consolidation of players into larger and larger power blocks. These alliances need to be split up, their supercaps, bridges and cynos nerfed to hell, their SOV holding made weak. It should be impossible to harvest and transport valuable moon goo with 99.99% safety, it should have serious risk and they should lose it often.

I'm all for destruction of carebears in 0.0

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Doctor Dremo

Originally by: Ephemeron
it depends how they play EVE

If someone does nothing but farming, they must be punished.
I'm also in favor of empire Carebear Abuse Day - where CCP resets all system security to 0.0 for 1 day per month YARRRR!!

Well don't go losing another officer fit vargur about if/when they don't do that.



Most PVE activities in EVE, specifically belt ratting, running cosmic anomalies, incursions, and complexes (though not actually scanning them), and even mining all are composed of continually repeatable motions. Any mindless, caffeine infused zombie can point and click their way through these activities for hours on end. They certainly may feel like a robot while doing it, but it in no way breaks any sort of EULA restrictions from CCP.

The only botting program they are running is their brain, highly detuned to mindlessly follow the same boring pve content again and again.

If that is what you object, too, then again, I still really have no idea what point you are trying to make or how it relates to the topic of the op posting.

What I object to is people getting complacent with playing the game like robots. I don't want to see people fall into a rut of performing mindless tasks over and over again, forgetting what's it like to actually fight and starting to fear any sort of outside stimuli.

If people are too weak minded to stop farming once in a while and do something interesting, then CCP should encourage them with a good kick in the nuts.

The Ban Hammer
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 02/09/2011 22:27:16
Quote:
This "automatic investigation" appears to not contain any human element and merely checks against some server-side heuristic for account similarity, related activity and behavior, log-in timestamps, etc.

This information is critical to your argument yet it assumed. What information led you to this belief?

As a multiboxer you tend to form friendships with other multiboxers, those who play the game the same way you do. You band together and do things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. We've all been reported as bots over the years, and been outright told so many times. None of us have ever been banned because it was quite clear when we were investigated (by a human) that none of us were bots. None of the multiboxers in question even run third party programs to even help facilitate management.

Then a group of players rolls into system, starts with the standard threats, then goes on to accuse them of being bots. Then all of a sudden a number of the multiboxers have had all their accounts banned with no warning, and seemingly no investigation. Being that nothing has changed over the years except for the very recent addition of the "Report Bot" mechanic, it's fairly safe to say that there is a strong connection. And being that it takes CCP 2+ days to respond to petitions filed under the Exploit tab (I've timed it extremely recently), and that bans were extremely swift. All of it seems highly dubious. Either the new system has very high ban-priority for CCP, or that it is as CCP claims, an "automated" system.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.02 22:59:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: The Ban Hammer
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 02/09/2011 22:27:16
Quote:
This "automatic investigation" appears to not contain any human element and merely checks against some server-side heuristic for account similarity, related activity and behavior, log-in timestamps, etc.

This information is critical to your argument yet it assumed. What information led you to this belief?

As a multiboxer you tend to form friendships with other multiboxers, those who play the game the same way you do. You band together and do things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. We've all been reported as bots over the years, and been outright told so many times. None of us have ever been banned because it was quite clear when we were investigated (by a human) that none of us were bots. None of the multiboxers in question even run third party programs to even help facilitate management.

Then a group of players rolls into system, starts with the standard threats, then goes on to accuse them of being bots. Then all of a sudden a number of the multiboxers have had all their accounts banned with no warning, and seemingly no investigation. Being that nothing has changed over the years except for the very recent addition of the "Report Bot" mechanic, it's fairly safe to say that there is a strong connection. And being that it takes CCP 2+ days to respond to petitions filed under the Exploit tab (I've timed it extremely recently), and that bans were extremely swift. All of it seems highly dubious. Either the new system has very high ban-priority for CCP, or that it is as CCP claims, an "automated" system.


That's very interesting. I kind of assumed this would happen sooner than later. I take it that;
1. You are not botting
2. You are not banned.
?
The reason I ask can be paraphrased from Pulp Fiction...

Mr pink: "I can only be certain about what I did or didn't do. For all I know you're the botter."
Mr White: "For all I know you're the ****in botter!!!."
Mr Pink: "Now you're usin your head!"

So all I am saying is the only person you can know for sure what they did or didn't do is you.

BUT... Your story is right on the money from everything I have seen since I joined Eve, and if WiS was finished and I could place a bet, I would bet you are correct.

I rarely solicit a CCP response, but CCP, please, this needs a response. thanks ahead of time.

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:04:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
The problem of griefers abusing the "report bot" feature was a guaranteed result of its implementation, CCP put it in anyways so they could claim they were "doing something" about the problem.


If said griefer/s repeatedly report non-bots for lolz, they'll get the ban hammer dropped on their thick heads. Same goes for ISK spammers.

Seriously, I get lolz watching everybody yelling "OMGCCPSTOPTHEBOTS" and when CCP does try to do something, everyone screams "IT'S A PR GIMMICK!!!"

ffs


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:05:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: The Ban Hammer
.......snip.....

Then a group of players rolls into system, starts with the standard threats, then goes on to accuse them of being bots. Then all of a sudden a number of the multiboxers have had all their accounts banned with no warning, and seemingly no investigation.
....snip.....



Or said multiboxers were lying to you and botting. Players that cheat lie.
CCP did investigate but certainly does not want to tell you or any player what that entails (because that would allow the botters to make better bots) and banned them.

Doctor Dremo
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:25:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones


That's very interesting. I kind of assumed this would happen sooner than later. I take it that;
1. You are not botting
2. You are not banned.
?


Disclosure: I am posting with an alt, ofc.


I found this thread because I am dealing with this same issue. I multi-box mine with 2 rorquals and 8 hulks, with 8 mackinaw chars also trained on those hulk accounts. By all accounts, I certainly could appear to be a bot by the untrained eye. However, I'm also an active pvp pilot on other characters, with thousands of mails, and FC'ing experience at the small-gang, fleet, and coalition level.

After interaction with a particular group of players one day, I awoke the next morning to discover nearly every single one of my accounts banned.

I do not bot. I have never used any program besides EVEMon and EFT to facilitate my gameplay. I have a piece of trash Microsoft Keyboard, so I don't even have any of those funky logitech macrobinds that people talk about. I applaud each and every effort by CCP to reduce or eliminate botting, up to and including some sort of bot-detection program installed with EVE to prevent it on the front-end.

I, too, have been accused of botting prior to this latest "Report a Bot" feature being added, but each time I was cleared by CCP after a personalized interaction with them.

Now, however, I am left sitting on a petition for several days with nearly every single one of my accounts banned. So yeah, it happens. CCP, please, some guidance and support here would be nice.

I'm a long-time player of this game ('07 represent!) and I'm concerned about your implementation of this feature, because it has hit me directly at home.

Captain Hindsite
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:34:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones


That's very interesting. I kind of assumed this would happen sooner than later. I take it that;
1. You are not botting
2. You are not banned.
?
The reason I ask can be paraphrased from Pulp Fiction...

Mr pink: "I can only be certain about what I did or didn't do. For all I know you're the botter."
Mr White: "For all I know you're the ****in botter!!!."
Mr Pink: "Now you're usin your head!"




l2tarantino

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:43:00 - [18]
 

Miner:

1. undock
2. warp to belt
3. Target and mine until cargohold full
4. Warp to station
5. Unload cargo
6. Repeat

Bot:

1. undock
2. warp to belt
3. Target and mine until cargohold full
4. Warp to station
5. Unload cargo
6. Repeat

I can't see how this could be abused.


Delianora
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:57:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Delianora on 02/09/2011 23:57:38
In the USA in the 1970s, acid rain from coal-fired powerplants was killing the fish of millions of ponds, lakes, and rivers...

However, the people who said "that's fake!" always used as evidence this...

There were still large numbers of full grown, huge fish to be caught...

What scientists realized by the 1980s and 1990s is that the full grown, giant, mature fish were LESS vulnerable to acid rain damage to their ponds and lakes BECAUSE they were the top fish...

Only the smaller fish and younger fish were dieing...

Sadly, by the time they realized that--the generation of large, older fish died of old age...

All of you who play with 5-8 accounts mining are those older fish...

The easy bots are gone, the simple bots are gone, and you are now left to be

1) constantly reported every day forever
2) at the top of the food chain, so killing u nets a bigger "win" for whatever that means
3) more importantly--PROPPING UP A FAILING ECOSYSTEM

This is the really SAD part of eve... The current numbers of log ins and active players includes the last gasp of the "old fish"... eve billionaires with multiple accounts who keep on playing as their ecosystem dies...

There are NOT a lot of new fish, and the death rate of young and adult fish is very high...

What is ironic is the very ecosystem that u swim in is polluted so much that you all are dying from that same ecosystem!

Oh well, see ya later!

The Ban Hammer
Posted - 2011.09.03 00:07:00 - [20]
 

Without making the post too specific I can assure you that no botting was done. Our multiboxing fleet was maliciously banned because we reinforced a high sec tower in a war dec and the enemy wanted us all gone for when it came out of reinforce (and their plan worked flawlessly).

It doesn't matter that we were speaking in private chats constantly throughout the battle, or that we were posting things to local chat... our enemies knew this, and they still reported us. The bottom line is that this tool is being used as an exploit, and performing the equivalent of 'capital punishment' against legit Eve players in an automated way is terrible business policy.

Why aren't emails sent to banned players explaining why they were banned? Because it was automated and there was no human there to justify the ban, so there is NO REASON.

Doctor Dremo
Posted - 2011.09.03 00:39:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Doctor Dremo on 03/09/2011 00:42:40
Originally by: Delianora

This is the really SAD part of eve... The current numbers of log ins and active players includes the last gasp of the "old fish"... eve billionaires with multiple accounts who keep on playing as their ecosystem dies...

At first I thought your writeup might be trolling, but you actually brought to light a pretty good real-world example of what may be happening in EVE. So, thank you for that, and thank you especially for not automatically trolling me and calling me a lying, botting thief.

Related to your comments, The Mittani, the CSM Chairperson, today released another missive regarding the state of both his alliance, GoonSwarm Federation, as well as the state of EVE in general. He, too, made particular reference to the recent patches, specifically Incarna, and how there was no gain in PCU - peak concurrent users - after this patch.

http://t.co/sc9R7xG is a link to the article, the upper half is mostly propaganda but the latter half was definitely very informative. Because of how closely it echos what Delianora posted, I felt it was appropriate to share. Given how apparently effective his CSM candidacy to-date has been in getting changes applied to the game that he and the rest of the CSM feels are "good for the game," I wonder how effective he will now be in rallying our wallets around the rest of the game, as well, to perhaps save EVE from CCP itself.



Regardless, back to topic: Does anyone else have any first-hand experience with getting banned after the addition of the "Report a Bot" feature, and if so, what were you actions to help correct the situation?


Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.09.03 00:51:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena


Or said multiboxers were lying to you and botting. Players that cheat lie.
CCP did investigate but certainly does not want to tell you or any player what that entails (because that would allow the botters to make better bots) and banned them.


Quote:
House: Everybody lies

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.03 01:02:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: The Ban Hammer
Then a group of players rolls into system, starts with the standard threats, then goes on to accuse them of being bots. Then all of a sudden a number of the multiboxers have had all their accounts banned with no warning, and seemingly no investigation. Being that nothing has changed over the years except for the very recent addition of the "Report Bot" mechanic, it's fairly safe to say that there is a strong connection. And being that it takes CCP 2+ days to respond to petitions filed under the Exploit tab (I've timed it extremely recently), and that bans were extremely swift. All of it seems highly dubious. Either the new system has very high ban-priority for CCP, or that it is as CCP claims, an "automated" system.

Nothing has changed except the very recent "Report Bot" mechanic? Wrong, so totally wrong it's funny you haven't been paying attention.

CCP Sreeg and his team has been making progress on bot detection to the point where The Mittani has told goonies to stop using bots, and it's quite clear that you're confusing the report button with what really got your bots banned.

No, it's not griefers at fault and you really can't keep botting like before. Cry a River.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.09.03 01:09:00 - [24]
 

Oh come on who is REALLY surprised a "report a bot" system with no human check and balance is being abused lol

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.09.03 01:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Oh come on who is REALLY surprised a "report a bot" system with no human check and balance is being abused lol

I just want to clarify this, having worked on the report a bot feature:

Nobody is banned without a human person doing an investigation to determine is a reported person is a bot or not. If you get reported and you're not a bot, then you have nothing to fear.

The Report a bot feature is simply a way of streamlining the process of reporting a bot. Previously you'd file a petition. Now you just report the person with a button, and a GM will investigate, just like they normally would.

tl;dr: Nobody gets banned automatically because somebody reported them. If you believe you got banned incorrectly, file a petition and a GM will investigate the case.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.09.03 01:40:00 - [26]
 

lol looks like I struck a nerve O.o

To be fair tho I was responding to something someone had already said
I didnt come up with that one on my own

Doctor Dremo
Posted - 2011.09.03 02:28:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Stillman

I just want to clarify this


Thank you very, very, very much for posting in this thread. It is very much appreciated, the not-knowing part is what was killing me the most.

I will await any response to my petitions, thank you.

Vyl Vit
Minmatar
Cambio Enterprises
Posted - 2011.09.03 02:58:00 - [28]
 

In all such cases as this I see behind it a management team that views themselves as in some exalted, paternalistic role whose first duty is to beat with a club. It lends to an atmosphere of jack-booted officiousness which I find (frankly) offensive.

This overbearing, ham(mer)-handed approach sets the stage for a similar "might is right" mentality which pervades the player base. The mighty sandbox becomes a venue to display and engage in anti-social and sociopathic behavior which would result in institutionalization or imprisonment even in the most backward of cultures.

I shudder to think (love that cliche) what haunts the minds of these people IRL, and don't relish the privilege of being a character in their psycho-drama. Also, as a responsible adult, I have no respect for the reaction of "That's the way it is. Live with it," which should be unthinkable, but seems to be the prevailing point of view further proving what I've observed is true.

It's very spooky to think what people of this era are capable of if they are guaranteed to "get away with it." Tens of thousands of years of human experience has resulted in a civilization possessing the sub-conscious of unsurpassed barbarity. Attila the Hun would be shocked...which of course would be the source of epic ego rides.

Go figure.


Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2011.09.03 14:02:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Doctor Dremo

Related to mining, I do know that multi-box miners in particular get accused of botting regularly by other players who don't seem to know how to engage their brain. Some player sees 8 mackinaws in an 0.0 belt somewhere, and then sees them all warp out at exactly the same time, and says "omg bot!"



if they warp at the same time owned uses probram automating them and sends same command to all of them at the same time


Tikera Tissant
Posted - 2011.09.03 14:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Rasz Lin
Originally by: Doctor Dremo

Related to mining, I do know that multi-box miners in particular get accused of botting regularly by other players who don't seem to know how to engage their brain. Some player sees 8 mackinaws in an 0.0 belt somewhere, and then sees them all warp out at exactly the same time, and says "omg bot!"



if they warp at the same time owned uses probram automating them and sends same command to all of them at the same time




There are features in-game which allows you to warp the squad almost at the same time.
No need for a program to do that.

I'm multi-boxing, and I can warp all the alts almost the same time even without the squad warp, just, just right click->warp to member, which takes just a second to do.

Someone had already accused me of boting in local, and when I replied to him, he kept ranting that I'm "automatically replaying" and said he reported me with all his alts.
I didn't get any ban, but I don't want to as well, and start arguing with CCP about me not boting.

So as long as they actually investigate and not just "ban first, ask questions later", I'm fine with the new system.


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