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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:35:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 02/09/2011 18:38:24
The Principle is pretty simple…

The long standing confusion about these two things, stems from the way that EFT (and other MMO’s) calculate damage. Your weapons have two distinct properties 1. They Deal Damage and 2. They Have A Cycle Rate.



The Confusion Is Coming From Damage Dealt Vs. Cycle Rate…







George Foreman Vs Jackie Chan



Some weapons in EVE Online hit like George Foreman (like a ton of brick)
As soon as they blink green they have a huge damage output compared to other weapons. The thing is this... THEY ALSO HAVE A REALLY SLOW CYCLE RATE.



So HUGE Damage Output
But Reloads REALLY slowly (like a cannon)




Other weapons are like Jackie Chan...
lighter strikes that occur REALLY FAST and in quick succession.


The weapon’s Damage Output is lower but IT HAS A REALLY FAST CYCLE RATE (like a machine gun)






This Is Why High Alpha Weapons Do Low DPS… It's Do To Their Slower Cycle Rate (Or Their Slower Reload Time) See? Very Happy






DPS (Damage Per Second) Is Only An Average Of The Damage Done Vs. Time.
It Is Not An Acurate Representation Of The Actual Damage Output Of The Weapon & That Is Why We Also Have The Term “Alpha Strike”



Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:37:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 02/09/2011 18:12:54
So Which One Is Better?
Can Anyone Answer This Question Without Getting Trolled To Hell & Back?

Sure! Why Not! Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy







Let’s Compare Two Hurricanes With Perfect Skills


Both Hurrucanes Have 3 Gyros and both are armed with the biggest guns that they can carry, 720mm Howitzer Artillery II’s and 425mm Autocannon II’s (both are loaded with republic fleet fustion)



Autocannon Hurricane = 600 DPS (1,400 Alpha) Cycle Rate 2.3
Artillery Hurricane = 450 DPS (3,900 Alpha) Cycle Rate 8.2







The First "Alpha" Shot - The First 8.2 Seconds Of The Fight

So my Artillery shoots ONCE in 8.2 seconds (so that's… 3,900 TOTAL Damage Done)
Where as my Autocannons Shoots 3 Times in 8.2 seconds (1,400 Alpha x 3 = 4,200 TOTAL Damage Done)





On My Second "Alpha" Shot - The First 16.4 Seconds Of The Fight

In TWO shots (16.4 Seconds) Your Artillery does 7,800 TOTAL Damage
Where as your Autocannons Cycle 7 times and deal 9,800 TOTAL Damage







So The Answer To The Question Of Which One Is Better IS!! Drum Roll........................ "How long do you expect your fight to last?"



If your target is going to die in less then 8 seconds (ofc we are not taking into account range and tracking) Alpha Strike is better, where as if you expect the fight to last more then 12 seconds Autocannons will be better. Why? Because Autocannons can do the same amount of DPS in 12 seconds and MORE in 16 seconds then Artillery can in the same time frame.






Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:39:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 02/09/2011 18:11:12
In the end, you can avoid all of this math and nerdy MMO science and simply look at what everyone else is doing...




Are the people shoot at you using Hybrids, Beam Laser, Artillery and Cruise Missiles, or are they using Blasters, Pulse Lasers, Autocannons and Torpedos? Whatever it is that they are currently using, they are using it because it has ultimately proven itself to work better over the years.




* Expect longer range weapons in Null Sec because of engagements at long ranges, warp bubbles and massive blobs (Alpha is good here)
* Expect shorter range weapons in Empire and Low Sec because of the shorter ranges involved and station games.



Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:51:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 02/09/2011 18:05:00
Reserved

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.09.02 19:46:00 - [5]
 

DPS
Alpha
Dmg types and factors that effect it such as tracking

I'd suggest editing those articles with anything they missed

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2011.09.03 15:15:00 - [6]
 


Interesting.

I had personally defined Alpha as "Damage in one [First] cycle." And DPS as "60 seconds of damage divided by 60."

Based on the OPs definition of Alpha, if I expect a fight to last 3 minutes, the first 'Cane has an "Alpha" of 42,805 and the second 'Cane has an "Alpha" of 53,780. And it's not really practical. The time everyone hopes the battle will last is not easy to determine.

It just seems that the OP's definition of "Alpha" is too...loosey-goosey to be useful. I've always considered "Alpha" to mean that you get one single shot at your target...one cycle.

The practical application being...I want a guaranteed kill in high sec. The target ship has between 5,000 and 15,000 EHP. I need to bring a ship or ships that can do 15,001 pts of damage in one cycle (Alpha).


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.09.04 14:36:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 04/09/2011 14:44:39
Originally by: KaarBaak
The target ship has between 5,000 and 15,000 EHP. I need to bring a ship or ships that can do 15,001 pts of damage in one cycle (Alpha).



This one time at bandcamp I was in an instalocking Artillery Hurricane and 1 volleyed an Ishkur that was sitting completely stationary. It was hilarious.... had it been moving however, it very likely would not have went poof after the first shot.

(Not to mention that my Hurricane had absolutely no tank to speak of and was fit for pure gank and tracking, which is typical of High Alpha ship fits)




And that being said... I don't see many stationary 5k to 15k EHP ships sitting stationary in space so I can kill them (unless I am camping the Jita undock)






The Length Of The Average Fight In Empire/Low Sec:

> 30 to 60 seconds (matching the aggression and session timers)
...and < 8 seconds (matching the higher EHP ships that everyone is flying)




In Null Sec:

Alpha tends to be more effective because 1. there are greater ranges involved and 2. people tend to fit less tank and thus have less EHP, so the effect of multiple Alpha Strikes are amplified on targets that have both lesser EHP and are at greater ranges. But even there, this is not always the case either...

Dantaeri
Caldari
Cold Steel Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.06 00:48:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Dantaeri on 06/09/2011 00:49:40
I would like to add to this on the subject of nullsec and alpha strike.

Practically all fights in nullsec involve the use of logistics ships, which repair other ships, greatly increasing their survivability. The problem here is that the repairs are not instant. There are several delays, the most important of which is the human one. It takes a moment for a logistics pilot to see that a pilot is taking damage and activate the repair modules. However, once those repairs are active, they can make it very difficult to kill the enemy ships, so alpha strike provides a solution: do enough damage in that first few seconds that it destroys the ship before the logistics have a chance to respond.

As an example: lets say that your fleet can do 10,000 dps, while the enemy logistics can provide repairs for 20,000 incoming dps. Based on these numbers alone, you would have no chance. Now say the average ship has 50,000 effective hp. Your fleet fits their ships so that the fleet combined can do 75,000 aplha damage, so that when you engage, your fleet destroys each enemy ship in one volley, so that the logistics have no chance to repair, thus winning you the fight when you would have lost otherwise.


 

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