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blankseplocked a look at the paladin vs nightmare (discussion)
 
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Barbie D0ll
Posted - 2011.09.02 02:33:00 - [1]
 

right now the nightmare and paladin appear to be on equal ground. assuming all skills are max with the exception of AWU 4 for nightmare and cap implants. lets look at stats

Paladin
1.2k m3 room, 3 spare highs, damage bonus, cap capacity bonus ( slighty better cap than nightmare), tractor bonus, T2 tank (omnitanks and is more adaptable/tanks more than nightmare), 500 CPU 13500 PG
can use cap booster to better degree than nightmare but has harder time with fitting

nightmare
650 m3 room, 2 spare highs, same damage bonus, tracking bonus (applies damage slightly better than paladin), 710 CPU 145 PG
requires cap booster, faction tachs, implants, (exception from one of these makes it a knife edge tank liable to fail)

I welcome anyone that can build upon this discussion

Julius Priscus
Posted - 2011.09.02 02:44:00 - [2]
 

imo the nightmare is superior in every way.

shield tanking is better than armour tanking. altho more skill intensive.
can hit out to ranges of 85+km with mods/implants using only mf lenses.( well i know mine can)

only benifit the paladin has over the nightmare is. 1 paladins is cheaper than a nightmare.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.09.02 04:02:00 - [3]
 

Oh look, it's this topic again.

Use eve-search, there has only been hundreds of threads on this and volumes of posts.

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:20:00 - [4]
 

Looks , it is all about looks and personal taste for me
A paladin can do all the things a nightmare does and just as good
But for me it is not about isk/ hour but all about immersion

Besides nightmare is buttugly i would rather die then being caught flying a ugly ships
Second as a true amarrian i kill sanshas not fly them

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:20:00 - [5]
 

A Nightmare does NOT require a cap booster. You can have a boosterless fit that still has 3 damage mods and 2 tracking enhancers.


In the end, the one thing that made me choose a Nightmare over a Paladin, despite it's ugliness, is the tracking bonus. It makes a signifiant difference in use.

Brutorr
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:44:00 - [6]
 

Flown both on a previous character and found the Nightmare to be suprior, but I was never interested in salvage and loot.

Its pretty simple really, can the Paladin do anything the Nightmare can't, and vice versa.

Both can look to permatank or dps tank or fit a cap booster.

Paladin
Can Tractor as it goes, still more efficient to bring in another ship to salvage the clumps you make.

Can Web ships to a near stand still if they come close.

Nightmare
Can always out DPS in reality due to tracking bonus (outside of web range), the Paladin also has its damage bonus on the marauder skill so much more SP required to achieve the same EFT damage.

No matter how you fit the Paladin you can't match the Nightmare's tracking.

Shield tank when pimped is superior to armour tank. Even with the Paladin tanking bonus a cheap deadspace shield tank is still more efficient than armour tanking.

Overall

Both ships perform very well for Amarr missions, and its mainly a personal preference. As I said I had a Nightmare, then I tried a Paladin, but I never fell for it like I did the Nightmare. Also I love the Nightmare look, both are nice looking ships.

When I had both, the only time I ever took the Paladin out was either fully fit out to salvage and loot if I fancied it.

The only enemy npc that warrants using the Paladin over the Nightmare would be Angels so you can apply better dps when they rush in (although easier to tank the Nightmare for Angels), but I always flew a Mach for Angel misson.

My suggestion is to try both T2 fit for a little while and then moderately pimp the one you like. You can buy, rig and fit one, try it, and then sell it all and try the other and it would cost less than 100m ISK to do so, not much mission time in either ship.

Verity Sovereign
Posted - 2011.09.03 04:59:00 - [7]
 

Nightmare: can be flown by a careful 4 month old character
Paladin: cannot be flown by a careful 4 month old character

I am a 4 month old character.
Guess which one I fly.

I would also point out the difference in sensor strength.
28 for the nightmare, 12 for the paladin.
Also, the nightmare is slower.
Some lvl 4s have long trips between gates, so it does matter.

Pax Infinitas
Posted - 2011.09.03 10:43:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Pax Infinitas on 03/09/2011 10:43:38
Originally by: Barbie D0ll
right now the nightmare and paladin appear to be on equal ground. assuming all skills are max with the exception of AWU 4 for nightmare and cap implants. lets look at stats

Paladin
1.2k m3 room, 3 spare highs, damage bonus, cap capacity bonus ( slighty better cap than nightmare), tractor bonus, T2 tank (omnitanks and is more adaptable/tanks more than nightmare), 500 CPU 13500 PG
can use cap booster to better degree than nightmare but has harder time with fitting

nightmare
650 m3 room, 2 spare highs, same damage bonus, tracking bonus (applies damage slightly better than paladin), 710 CPU 145 PG
requires cap booster, faction tachs, implants, (exception from one of these makes it a knife edge tank liable to fail)

I welcome anyone that can build upon this discussion


A few things:

First, the Paladin is low slot gimped. To get the Paladin on the same footing in terms of damage with the NM you're looking at a 3 slot tank with 4 HS. I can fit 4 HS and 1 TE on a NM without gimping its tank in any way.

Second, the Paladin is woefully short of PG. With T2 Tachs, you're not fitting anything but a faction or T1 repper without a PG implant, ACR or PG mod.

Third, with the Nightmare being a shield tanker, with 7 mids, you can comfortably fit a 4 slot tank and with an XL booster can actually outtank the Paladin. All while maintaining 3 utility mids. I normally go with a cap booster and 2 Tracking Computers.

Fourth, in Sansha and Blood missions, 90% of the time the Paladin's web bonus is going to be useless. Very rarely should something even be getting within web range. By the same token the Nightmare has a 7.5% tracking bonus per level of Amarr battleship, which means even if something does get close you've got a significantly improved chance of hitting it.

Fifth, yes the NM has capacitor problems. My stock setup gets less than 3 minutes of cap stability in EFT with everything running. With the ease with which both the NM and Paladin melt Sansha/Blood ships it's never been an issue for me. I've managed to screw up aggro on more occasions than I can remember, but the booster can power through it and in the < 3 minutes before my cap is dead, so is most of the room.

To sum up:
In the missions they're most likely to be running (Sansha/Blood), the Nightmare outtanks and outtracks (effectively outdamaging) the Paladin. The tradeoff is endurance (cap stability), the ability to salvage on the go, 13 m/s and the fact you have to skill into shield tanking. No contest in my mind. Oh, and you don't get the web bonus but TBH that bonus is about as unnecessary as bonuses get for the missions you're most likely to be running.

Ninja edit: Typos

General Trajan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.09.03 13:26:00 - [9]
 

with the correct setup and willingness to invest, the paladin and nightmare will both do the exact same damage and tracking with only the NM edging out the paladin with range.

my paladin doesn't have any trouble with any missions. tank is irrelevant considering the amount of dps you can put out with any of the two ships. the biggest negative towards the paladin is ya really gotta put down the isk to get it right. the NM you can get away with some cheap crap and don't need a PG8 implant in your char's head.

if you're willing to pay the cost then the paladin is better overall. extra range for L4s isn't really an issue.

[paladin for the pimp at heart]
Core A-type EM hardener
Core A-Type Therm hardener
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Core- A-Type Large Armor Repairer

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer/Optimal range script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer/Tracking Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer/Tracking Script
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Whatever
Whatever
Whatever

Capacitor Control Circuit II
Capacitor Control Circuit II

5- Hammerhead II
5- Hobgoblin II

i use a couple of +5% damage hardwires and a tracking one (i think. can't remember since i mostly use my golem/tengu alt of late) and with the 3 faction tracking comps i can hit cruisers at 10km with all 3 tracking scripts fitted. need more range? use more optimal range scripts. fuggin great that way. and i still swap to mega pulse IIs for short range missions and can melt merc BSs in two-volleys consistently.

don't ever bother with webs for L4s. completely useless. great for vanguard incursions though. if you need a web in a L4 mission then that's what the hell you get for not swapping to mega pulse IIs in the 1st place!

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.09.03 15:04:00 - [10]
 

You forgot to mention that you need a 5% PG implant to shoehorn that fit in a Paladin, and that your cap will run out after just a few minutes. Look a lot less attractive wit that last point...

General Trajan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.09.03 16:45:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
You forgot to mention that you need a 5% PG implant to shoehorn that fit in a Paladin, and that your cap will run out after just a few minutes. Look a lot less attractive wit that last point...



re-read and you'll see were i wrote "PG8" implant. my setup doesn't need to be cap stable. it just needs enough cap while i quickly melt stuff is all. if you want to be cap stable and feel safer then by all means go with a afk domi or rattler and feel safe with oodles of cap and be slower at doing missions.

Major Atrocity
Posted - 2011.09.05 03:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: pussnheels


Besides nightmare is buttugly i would rather die then being caught flying a ugly ships
Second as a true amarrian i kill sanshas not fly them


know thy enemy. if you can use thier weapons you know thier weakness.

ZW Dewitt
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:17:00 - [13]
 

If you want to fly a paladin over a nightmare, something like the following is probably the right answer:

'Protest' Large Armor Repairer I
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink
True Sansha Heat Sink

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Energy Burst Aerator II

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.09.05 11:25:00 - [14]
 

Well reading this thread and previous threads about the topic and my own personal experience ingame,Both ships are great missionrunners, each with their own pro s a nd cons
Eventually it comes down to personal taste

Even with a low electronics suit i never had problems in a paladin with jamming and the few times i go up against guristas i just change to a pve pulselaser legion , takes a bit longer end result is the same.
Using lasers against angels and guristas yes sure it takes longer to kill them , but they die , actually i think that since angels tend to orbit you at cloe range they even die faster since i can use my imperial multifrequincy crystals to full effect,
No my friends like i mentioned before they both pretty equal and in the end the paladin wins because of it is better looking , for me anyway

And undeed one of the major rules of eve is in effect here .. don't fly the ship if you don't have the skills

Maisonian
Amarr
The Green Machine
Posted - 2011.09.06 11:01:00 - [15]
 

Nightmare = Tachyons
Paladin = Megapulse

Thanks for listening.

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2011.09.06 13:02:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Maisonian
Nightmare = Tachyons
Paladin = Megapulse

Thanks for listening.


says who?

Noemi Nagano
Posted - 2011.09.06 13:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Garia666
Originally by: Maisonian
Nightmare = Tachyons
Paladin = Megapulse

Thanks for listening.


says who?


Mr. PG.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.06 13:39:00 - [18]
 

Don't forget Mr. Tracking bonus. Or Mr. Capacitor (Tachyon Paladin fitting elutriation rigs? Or a capacitor booster? Hah!)


 

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