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Kuan Yida
Minmatar
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:57:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kuan Yida on 01/09/2011 22:57:33
The Imperial Crusade, unable to prevail in battle against an evenly matched but outnumbered Minmatar militia foe, resorted to bringing in over a dozen supercarriers as well as carrier support from -AAA- into Kourmonen system last night. The Minmatar fleet was subsequently slaughtered and scattered.

There is no need to call the Amarr cowards (that is self evident). War is war, honor be damned. But to involve such a powerful rogue and unlawful group from outside Empire space presents a dangerous precedent. You can be sure this action will have far reaching repercussions and consequences.

Aquila Shadow
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:26:00 - [2]
 

Militia fleets call in super cap support from null-sec empires all the time, its a military tactic called escalation. The Amarr simply wanted to win and acheived that by bringing in friends.

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:25:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Aquila Shadow
Militia fleets call in super cap support from null-sec empires all the time, its a military tactic called escalation. The Amarr simply wanted to win and acheived that by bringing in friends.



Quiet you, logic isn't welcome here.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 02:09:00 - [4]
 

Ye felt the pressin' need to broadcast this publicly because......why, exactly?

Azelor Delaria
Caldari
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.09.02 02:11:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Aquila Shadow
Militia fleets call in super cap support from null-sec empires all the time, its a military tactic called escalation. The Amarr simply wanted to win and acheived that by bringing in friends.


It's not as common as Major Aquilla makes it out to be. In my limited time fighting on the Caldari-Gallente front, I believe I witnessed the Federation bring in two Thanatos-class carriers to an engagements of battlecruisers, with the assorted battleship around. The Caldari responded by requesting a supercarrier from a neighboring system. The Caldari and Gallente have carriers.

In my even lesser time on the Amarr-Minmatar front, I have seen the Matari field a supercarrier. It was to the point that the supercarrier posed such a large problem and the threat was ever-present, that any major battle between Amarr and Matari forces was watched by several alliances. The Amarr in particular did everything they could to bait the supercarrier, but (to my knowledge) it never appeared for one reason or another.

So while requesting assistance from rogue elements outside the militia battlefront is uncommon, it's not unheard of.

Raphael Saint
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.02 06:26:00 - [6]
 

I'm rather certain that the number of supercarriers dropped was not up to the crusade but -AAA- itself. Make sure you file a formal complaint with them as well. I'm certain that they've got a suggestion box somewhere.

Caviar Liberta
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2011.09.02 07:30:00 - [7]
 

And in other news, those super caps were tied up in some low grade militia slugfest and not sent to some dead end null sec system.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.09.02 07:39:00 - [8]
 

ever consider that you where outplayed. Its likely they knew of supercap support from the beginning of the battle and you had a whole mess of people piling in eager to get some kills on you. You got baited and lost, that simple.

And if you talk about honor perhaps the republic shouldn't have committed a sneak attack on Concord and the Empire, destroying peace across the cluster and costing millions upon millions of innocent lives.

Welcome to war... it's not fair... it's not honorable... it's kill by any means.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.02 08:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
And if you talk about honor perhaps the republic shouldn't have committed a sneak attack on Concord and the Empire, destroying peace across the cluster and costing millions upon millions of innocent lives.


I could now respond to this somewhat tendencious historic summary, but please. Do you know where this will end? In yet another kindergarten-level "you started it!" "NO YOU!"-style of discussion. Is that useful? Will it change anything? No. We're in a war, and this war does not care about who started it. This is about survival, not justification.

Quote:
Welcome to war... it's not fair... it's not honorable... it's kill by any means.


Indeed.

(Some of) the Amarr tend to be upset just as much about "the unfairness" of the Minmatar Militia. It's part of this conflict (any conflict, really) to be upset about "the other side" when they bring out something you can't currently deal with.

I think what upsets Kuan here the most is the hypocrisy, though. There are a few Amarr who continuously cry about how they just want "good fights" and how the Minmatar are always spoiling them, yadda yadda. The thing to take out of this (or any of the prior incidents) is to simply stop believing pathetic Amarrian propaganda.

Hypocrisy is the second Amarrian virtue, right after hubris.

Stilo Refrin
Posted - 2011.09.02 10:22:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
hubris.


Goes well on toast!

ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
Posted - 2011.09.02 12:16:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Ye felt the pressin' need to broadcast this publicly because......why, exactly?


For once Malcolm this is a sentiment I agree with, I don see the need to broadcast this publicly.

Neutral alliances help out all the time, so I guess the OP is just mad because alliances that are helping out his side like Electus Matari are weaker than the alliance that helped us out in that battle.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:29:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/09/2011 13:29:34
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I think what upsets Kuan here the most is the hypocrisy, though. There are a few Amarr who continuously cry about how they just want "good fights" and how the Minmatar are always spoiling them, yadda yadda. The thing to take out of this (or any of the prior incidents) is to simply stop believing pathetic Amarrian propaganda.

Hypocrisy is the second Amarrian virtue, right after hubris.


Yes.

And same thing everywhere, really. Nothing new.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:10:00 - [13]
 

I can recall multiple cases of nullsec alliances shooting at Amarrian forces or otherwise assisting the Shakorites since the war began, so this whole thread smacks of sour grapes to me.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik


I think what upsets Kuan here the most is the hypocrisy, though. There are a few Amarr who continuously cry about how they just want "good fights" and how the Minmatar are always spoiling them, yadda yadda. The thing to take out of this (or any of the prior incidents) is to simply stop believing pathetic Amarrian propaganda.

Hypocrisy is the second Amarrian virtue, right after hubris.


Sadik, come on lad.

Propaganda comes from both sides continually and the whole point behind it is that it's biased, often exaggerated (though usually based on truth) and is never worth believing. That's what makes it propaganda and not information.

I could also point out the delightful irony of complaining about hypocrisy and hubris while demonstrating both yourself but I won't.

Oh wait...

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.02 16:51:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 02/09/2011 17:04:11
Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Propaganda comes from both sides continually and the whole point behind it is that it's biased, often exaggerated (though usually based on truth) and is never worth believing. That's what makes it propaganda and not information.


Indeed. I believe that is what I was saying?

Quote:
I could also point out the delightful irony of complaining about hypocrisy and hubris while demonstrating both yourself but I won't.


I think you interpret more into my post than there is.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:07:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik

Mind pointing out where you see either of those in my post?


'Course.

You started your post by telling one Amarrian that you could respond to her obviously propagated statement with your own but that doing so would only lead to another petulant, finger-pointing and shouting session. Then immediately turned around and said that the only thing that should be taken from this entire thread was that everyone should stop believing "pathetic Amarrian propaganda." Which, by the way, is a form of propaganda in which you take an opportunity to discredit another's propaganda and expand it to insert your own into your counter argument.

Hubris was demonstrated when you decided to try and walk the moral high ground by stating that all Amarrians value hubris and hypocrisy as their highest virtues. A blanket judgment on an entire people from a critical standpoint is always a prideful judgment because it requires that you consider yourself beyond reproach in those regards.

Intended or not, you demonstrated both in your response.

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:09:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik


I think you interpret more into my post than there is.


Now that may very well be the case. If so, then my misjudgment of your presentation reflects my own failures, nay?


Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.02 17:47:00 - [18]
 

First: Apologies for editing my post while you were replying. Bad form on my part.

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Originally by: Arkady Sadik

Mind pointing out where you see either of those in my post?


'Course.

You started your post by telling one Amarrian that you could respond to her obviously propagated statement with your own but that doing so would only lead to another petulant, finger-pointing and shouting session. Then immediately turned around and said that the only thing that should be taken from this entire thread was that everyone should stop believing "pathetic Amarrian propaganda." Which, by the way, is a form of propaganda in which you take an opportunity to discredit another's propaganda and expand it to insert your own into your counter argument.


Ah. No, that was not what I was trying to say.

My post was a recommendation to the Minmatar Militia. Quite a few pilots in there regularly believe the promises of certain Amarrian FCs when they talk about "good fights" and such - I was pointing out that this incident (not this thread) should tell them differently.

Regarding this thread, you will find the beginning of my post stating that I agree with a prior poster's assessment that this is war, period. The Amarr called in heavy support and won a fight. Good on them. Learn from the incident, do better next time. Nothing to complain about.

Quote:
Hubris was demonstrated when you decided to try and walk the moral high ground by stating that all Amarrians value hubris and hypocrisy as their highest virtues.


We seem to have different ideas on what a "virtue" is. When I say that something is the highest Amarrian virtue, I mean that their culture values this highly, not that it's shared by all people of that blood, or that all people of that blood value it highly.

Compare this with "fighting for freedom is a Gallentean virtue" - this means that the Gallentean culture values this fight highly. It is not a statement of all Gallentean individuls.

I do believe that there is quite some evidence to the claim that the Amarrian culture values overcondifence, too. You can find hubris as the basis of the Amarrian faith - the Amarr to rule the heavens, as per the Scripture - as well as the basis for their combat doctrine, as nicely described in the recounts of the battle of Vak'Atioth and the aftermath thereof. This does not mean that all Amarrian people suffer from hubris (I know quite a few counter-examples), or that no one else would (I wish).

This has especially nothing to do with walking any "moral high ground." I honestly have no idea where you get that idea.

Likewise, hypocrisy is rather fundamental to the Amarrian culture. Their whole culture is based around slave work, while claiming that they only do this to "educate them". But said education or "bringing closer to god" rarely happens based on this education. They happily tell everyone (including themselves) that they try to conquer others not for personal gain or anything, but to "help them." This, is hypocrisy.

Again, not a statement about individuals, but about the Amarrian culture.

Quote:
A blanket judgment on an entire people from a critical standpoint is always a prideful judgment because it requires that you consider yourself beyond reproach in those regards.


I do not follow that logic, at all.

Why is what I said a "judgement" of anything? Why would it require that I am "beyond reproach" in those regards?

Malcolm Khross
Caldari
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
Posted - 2011.09.02 18:14:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 02/09/2011 18:16:33
I see now, valid explanations and clarifications. It is I who has misjudged you, Sadik.

As for the logic you refer to at the last, when one seeks to judge another they must first examine themselves, for the measure with which they judge another will be measured against them. Therefore, to judge another truthfully, you must be beyond reproach in the areas you are judging lest you be found wanting yourself and your judgment colored with hypocrisy.

Clearly a misjudgment on my part of your intentions and character, I retract it in error.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.09.02 18:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Khross
Edited by: Malcolm Khross on 02/09/2011 18:16:33
I see now, valid explanations and clarifications. It is I who has misjudged you, Sadik.



It's easy to misread others on these forums. Thank you for being able to retract on such a statement. That's a sign of an upstanding character, a rare thing in these times.

But I think I will now bow out of this thread.

Valkarth Tlakotani
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:44:00 - [21]
 

I find it interesting that many seem to believe that the Minmatar are a unified group. Dating to the invasion of Amarr, I believe that the Thukker tribe was involved. To this date, there have been various alliances among the Minmater, but I see no real government save perhaps in the minds of those that would benefit from such propaganda.
That being the case, the Thukkers are as much a part of null space as are triple A. Perhaps we should remember that both the Crusade and the Matar are trying to pull in allies, rather than hire mercs.
Just my opinion though,
-Valkarth

Raphael Saint
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.03 02:01:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Raphael Saint on 03/09/2011 02:02:55
Edited by: Raphael Saint on 03/09/2011 02:02:05
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
But I think I will now bow out of this thread.


And that's good, because you know nothing of the matter at hand, so I'll clarify it all for any of those who are reading about it and as woefully ignorant of it as you are.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I think what upsets Kuan here the most is the hypocrisy, though. There are a few Amarr who continuously cry about how they just want "good fights" and how the Minmatar are always spoiling them, yadda yadda. The thing to take out of this (or any of the prior incidents) is to simply stop believing pathetic Amarrian propaganda.



And of course believe in his. Anyone with any sense knows that hypocrisy is a human trait and that absolutely no government is free of it, especially the "Republic." Both the TLF and the 24IC uses overwhelming force as it suits them.

Despite what Yida pointlessly whined about, this is not a "precedent" by any means to either side, but just another instance among many past, present, and future.

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.03 03:01:00 - [23]
 

Okay, so, I'll add my bit to this.

I was unaware of what was going to happen in that operation. OPSEC was pretty tight. I knew something was going to be different. I was right, it would seem.

Okay, so, here's what I've been able to discern from experience in the Bleak Lands arena: Minmatar drop a lot of carriers on our sub-capital fleets. I mean it. A lot.

I was in a small battlecruiser fleet a while back and a Moros got jumped into the fight. Just in the past week I've seen carriers dropped on two different subcapital Amarrian fleets. When we go out, we almost always expect to have to fight a fleet of bigger ships, often twice our size, generally with third-party support. This is becoming all too common.

So, my assumption is it was time to repay the kindness. Was it overkill? Sure. Was it successful? Sure.

I think rather than pointing fingers, you should take the lesson to heart. "If you keep bringing in your capital ships, they will get destroyed, unpleasantly."

Does that help clarify things, somewhat? Or do you intend to spew hollow rhetoric ad infinitum?

Eran Mintor
Minmatar
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.03 03:04:00 - [24]
 

Re: Arkady Sadik

Anyone who's in this war for the sake of a "good fight" is not worth the biomass their clones are composed of and I urge them to retire from the capsuleer life. To risk lives for the sake of enjoyment is sickening, yet it does not surprise me so many in the militia find this as their main motivation. I would not be the one to encourage it though, Arkady.

Re: Kuan Yida

Like Paladin Saint pointed out, this was no "precedent". You act as if this is a new tactic and something the Minmatar have never used against their own enemies. You are either playing ignorant and dumb, or you have selective memory of times past.


Marenteius
Caldari
Red Coats
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:00:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Eran Mintor
Re: Arkady Sadik

Anyone who's in this war for the sake of a "good fight" is not worth the biomass their clones are composed of and I urge them to retire from the capsuleer life. To risk lives for the sake of enjoyment is sickening, yet it does not surprise me so many in the militia find this as their main motivation. I would not be the one to encourage it though, Arkady.




Ummmm, as much as this isnt quite on topic, i have to ask... you do realize that in all likelyhood most of the conflict between Capsuleers in the galaxy is due to a desire for enjoyment and gratification, right?

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:54:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Marenteius

Ummmm, as much as this isnt quite on topic, i have to ask... you do realize that in all likelyhood most of the conflict between Capsuleers in the galaxy is due to a desire for enjoyment and gratification, right?


It is a sad state indeed.

Kuan Yida
Minmatar
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.09.07 18:13:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Kuan Yida on 07/09/2011 18:13:53
Eran: I believe my recollection is clear. To my knowledge, and certainly never when I was present, has the Minmatar Late Nite fleet called in an outside Super Capital fleet to hot drop Amarr carriers. They have dropped their own super carriers, which is a different case. We do not resort to requesting outside assistance.

My issue is not one of fairness or even "fun." I am not complaining about the loss--we win, we lose, it is war, and all outcomes remain unknown until the final die are tossed.

We take our duty to combat the evils of the Amarr empire to heart, and seek to destroy your ships using every advantage... except using the involvement of outside forces, which I believe can create dramatic changes to the local balance of powers. Witness the drop by Raiden against the Amarr capital fleet, or the arrival now of Pandemic Legion and their hosts of supercarriers into our war zone. This is all the fallout of your actions.

As to our own use of capitals, the dropping of carriers at all remains an internal controversy. Carriers are almost (but admittedly not entirely) used when we have evenly or outmatched damage, but cannot match Amarr logistics. It is not a matter of "victory" per se, but in order to engage the Amarr we generally need to present a weaker target.

There are of course exceptions to this. We wish, as always, to win the fight. However, dropping carriers is often counter-productive to this effort, or you would see it far more often. If carriers are suspected often no engagement occurs at all. Or once a carrier arrives on the field, rather than remain you will (sensibly) retreat, depriving us of additional kill opportunities.

In any event, I maintain that the repercussions of the -AAA- drop-- the subsequent Raiden drop, and the arrival of PL -- are ones that will affect both our forces for some time to come.

Azelor Delaria
Caldari
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.09.08 02:59:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kuan Yida
Edited by: Kuan Yida on 07/09/2011 18:13:53
Eran: I believe my recollection is clear. To my knowledge, and certainly never when I was present, has the Minmatar Late Nite fleet called in an outside Super Capital fleet to hot drop Amarr carriers. They have dropped their own super carriers, which is a different case. We do not resort to requesting outside assistance.

My issue is not one of fairness or even "fun." I am not complaining about the loss--we win, we lose, it is war, and all outcomes remain unknown until the final die are tossed.

We take our duty to combat the evils of the Amarr empire to heart, and seek to destroy your ships using every advantage... except using the involvement of outside forces, which I believe can create dramatic changes to the local balance of powers. Witness the drop by Raiden against the Amarr capital fleet, or the arrival now of Pandemic Legion and their hosts of supercarriers into our war zone. This is all the fallout of your actions.

As to our own use of capitals, the dropping of carriers at all remains an internal controversy. Carriers are almost (but admittedly not entirely) used when we have evenly or outmatched damage, but cannot match Amarr logistics. It is not a matter of "victory" per se, but in order to engage the Amarr we generally need to present a weaker target.

There are of course exceptions to this. We wish, as always, to win the fight. However, dropping carriers is often counter-productive to this effort, or you would see it far more often. If carriers are suspected often no engagement occurs at all. Or once a carrier arrives on the field, rather than remain you will (sensibly) retreat, depriving us of additional kill opportunities.

In any event, I maintain that the repercussions of the -AAA- drop-- the subsequent Raiden drop, and the arrival of PL -- are ones that will affect both our forces for some time to come.


The Matari have never, from my own knowledge, requested outside supercapital support. They have, on multiple occasions, turned to the Electus Matari alliance to support their fleets. They have also requested the help of Amamake's #1 pirate group, B A N E alliance as well. Intelligence has always uggested a join Heretic Army-Matari intelligence network. Whether it's true or not is outside my realm of concern, since I do not concern myself with that portion of the conflict.

However, to say that it's okay for the Matari to request outside assistance, but at the same time blast the Amarr for doing the same is absurd. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So long as the Matari continue to request outside support, you can be sure the Amarr will do the same. Whether or not the Matari use their own supercapital ships or not is not the point of the matter.

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.08 14:27:00 - [29]
 

I suppose I should now point out that certain minmatar militia have been giving PL intel and aiding them?

I think you can step off the high ground now.

Getting help from B A N E is fundamentally the same as us getting help from triple A, also.

Raphael Saint
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.09.09 07:49:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Raphael Saint on 09/09/2011 07:51:23
The drop by Raiden was not against the Amarr fleet, but both fleets present. You need only look at a battle report to see that is the case.

Raiden was called in by the joint fleet of "neutral" (read: non-faction aligned) corporations who were beseiging the POS owned by the crusader capsuleer corporation "Black Souls Industries." Once cyno'd in by the joint fleet, Raiden proceeded to destroy every capital on the field, Amarrian or otherwise. Seeing as how the joint fleet was going to lose their capitals anyways, the assured destruction of more Amarrian capitals by Raiden could be seen as a 'victory' of sorts, but it's more a cautionary tale to know the intent of the 3rd party fleet you are about to call in.

For those interested, here is a battle report of the engagement: http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=237261

Edit: And yes, the evidence of the Minmitar Militia getting general aid from B A N E is all over the killboards. (B A N E does, of course, engage the minmatar from time to time. They are pirates, after all.)


 

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