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hautness
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:50:00 - [1]
 

Hi CCP,

Please can we have a ISK for bitcoin exchange in Eve. Bitcoin is a virtual currency that will eventually take over the world(maybe)and it would be great to be able to trade ISK/Plex for Bitcoin and vice versa. Second life can currently trade with Bitcoin and or normal currency so why not Eve. We can already spend real money on PLEX so I dont see a reason this would not be a good thing. Also anyone that wants to mine bitcoin can do so with their idle gpu when not gaming(its got to be better that boting/afk mining).

Ty



Information Agent
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:55:00 - [2]
 

heh

heheahahaahaha, hahahahahhahahahahahahaha mwahahahahaha hahahahahhahahaha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahahaha.

Seriously? Bitcoin? If it wasn't a massive scam it would still be a daft idea. Wait, CCP dont do it, its daft I know but dont do it, nooooooooooooo.

hautness
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:03:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Information Agent
heh

heheahahaahaha, hahahahahhahahahahahahaha mwahahahahaha hahahahahhahahaha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahahaha.

Seriously? Bitcoin? If it wasn't a massive scam it would still be a daft idea. Wait, CCP dont do it, its daft I know but dont do it, nooooooooooooo.


Please elaborate on your claims how is it a scam and how is it a bad idea? Or are you just another troll?

Information Agent
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:06:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: hautness
Originally by: Information Agent
heh

heheahahaahaha, hahahahahhahahahahahahaha mwahahahahaha hahahahahhahahaha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahahaha.

Seriously? Bitcoin? If it wasn't a massive scam it would still be a daft idea. Wait, CCP dont do it, its daft I know but dont do it, nooooooooooooo.


Please elaborate on your claims how is it a scam and how is it a bad idea? Or are you just another troll?


Go do some research into bitcoins uses and its actual usefulness, theres good reasons why its not gaining much traction anywhere. Wink

hautness
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:15:00 - [5]
 

Bitcoin is a tradeabe currency like all the others. It can already be used to buy real life goods. As with any currency its value is dependent on supply and demand. How would being able to trade it for plex be a bad idea?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:18:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 01/09/2011 23:21:31

Bitcoin OOPE thread : http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1510385

Originally by: hautness
Bitcoin is a tradeabe currency like all the others. It can already be used to buy real life goods. As with any currency its value is dependent on supply and demand. How would being able to trade it for plex be a bad idea?

The same way it would be a bad idea to allow exchanging any other RL currency for a PLEX both ways - namely, the ability to (indirectly) SELL ISK FOR CASH.

P.S. You can already trade bitcoins for PLEX one way (Bitcoins->GTC->2xPLEX) by buying GTCs from sites that accept bitcoins as payment method (there's at least one, somebody linked it a while back).

Mark Hampton
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:22:00 - [7]
 

There are online stores selling GTC for Bitcoins. I've bought some. I'm sure the owners are making a nice profit by charging slightly higher than the going rate in bitcoins when doing a bitcoin-to-dollar conversion.

WoW time, Wii points, etc. are also available.

Information Agent
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:23:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T

The same way it would be a bad idea to allow exchanging any other RL currency for a PLEX both ways - namely, the ability to (indirectly) SELL ISK FOR CASH.


This, and the fact that is isn't a currency, its actually nothing, has no real value other than what various people 'say' its worth and can be manipulated easily in its perceived value by hearsay and forum threads. Not to mention that its the prefered money laundering system of many dubious people.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:25:00 - [9]
 

This topic has been discussed much before. The OP didnt even suggest anything original.

Jenk Makkanahr
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:28:00 - [10]
 

Some readable:

bitcoin plunge jun 18

hautness
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:32:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Information Agent
Originally by: Akita T

The same way it would be a bad idea to allow exchanging any other RL currency for a PLEX both ways - namely, the ability to (indirectly) SELL ISK FOR CASH.


This, and the fact that is isn't a currency, its actually nothing, has no real value other than what various people 'say' its worth and can be manipulated easily in its perceived value by hearsay and forum threads. Not to mention that its the prefered money laundering system of many dubious people.


I didnt know you could but plex with BTC already :)

You point about it having no real value is true and the same as all other currencys(paper,metal etc). I just like the fact its not run by corrupt governments that just print more money when they need it!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: hautness
I didnt know you could but plex with BTC already :)

http://bitcoincodes.com/index.php?unit=store
Not PLEX. GTCs. Which you can then convert to PLEX.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:36:00 - [13]
 

sorry, CCP isn't going to help you launder your profits from The Silk Road.

Information Agent
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:39:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: hautness

I didnt know you could but plex with BTC already :)


I didn't know this tbh.

Originally by: hautness

You point about it having no real value is true and the same as all other currencys(paper,metal etc). I just like the fact its not run by corrupt governments that just print more money when they need it!


Its most likely run by mob barons/bosses/criminal elements even if the inventor is legit so same thing really, bad guys don't miss a trick when it comes to making under the counter money. Looks like a lot of people got robbed by bitcoin anyway so in all honesty it was probably engineered to make a few people a lot of real money at the publics expense. Shocked

AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: hautness
Bitcoin is a tradeabe currency like all the others. It can already be used to buy real life goods. As with any currency its value is dependent on supply and demand. How would being able to trade it for plex be a bad idea?


It's not legal tender.

If you owe money to someone, they cannot refuse payment if you are using legal tender.

The day you can pay a speeding ticket in bitcoins is when it becomes 'real'.

It's like calling yourself a deity - it only means something if you can burn bushes down using deity RL hacks.

It's like saying you own a Ferrari - it only means something when you pull away from the lights in a flash of red.

It's like saying you are Chuck Norris - it only means something when you roundhouse-kick 100 ninjas, and live.

It's like creating a trilogy - it only means something if the plot follows a logical path where the characters grow naturally and deepen their relationships, which in turn interweave seamlessly in a meaningful conclusion, without using a deus ex machina to solve all of the immense plot holes the writer decided to ignore, because their ego became larger than the story...

AK

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:47:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 01/09/2011 23:53:48

Originally by: Information Agent
Its most likely run by mob barons/bosses/criminal elements even if the inventor is legit so same thing really, bad guys don't miss a trick when it comes to making under the counter money. Looks like a lot of people got robbed by bitcoin anyway so in all honesty it was probably engineered to make a few people a lot of real money at the publics expense. Shocked

It's run by nobody and everybody at the same time, and anybody can use it the same way as long as they have an internet-connected computer.

Also, people weren't "robbed by bitcoin".
People that used less than secure escrow wallet services within some of the popular exchanges got their EXCHANGE accounts compromised, and BITCOINS stolen from those escrow wallets. It's like saying the US government robbed you if you had your USD in a bank security box and somebody infiltrated the bank, opened your security box and took the cash out of it.
Also, some people lost their locally stored bitcoin wallet info to malware and spyware or other regular attacks.

Bitcoins are far more similar to actual paper money than people would like to think about - if you willingly and freely give it to somebody else (like people did with their online exchange site wallets) it's gone UNLESS THEY WILLINGLY GIVE IT BACK (if they still have it), it can be stolen (if you don't secure it), it can be lost, and it can even be destroyed.

Originally by: AlleyKat
It's not legal tender. If you owe money to someone, they cannot refuse payment if you are using legal tender.

It's not legal tender anywhere, true.
But most RL currencies are NOT legal tender everywhere either.
Try forcing somebody in Europe to accept USD, or try forcing somebody in the USA to accept EUR. Or better yet, try forcing somebody in Peru to accept Indian Rupees.
They might all be legal tender somewhere, but that doesn't mean jack outside the "area of influence".
So you can consider Bitcoins to be "legal tender for the Internet" Twisted Evil (whatever that means)

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Information Agent
This, and the fact that is isn't a currency, its actually nothing, has no real value other than what various people 'say' its worth and can be manipulated easily in its perceived value by hearsay and forum threads. Not to mention that its the prefered money laundering system of many dubious people.


That is true of every sovereign fiat currency in the world.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:02:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Information Agent
This, and the fact that is isn't a currency, its actually nothing, has no real value other than what various people 'say' its worth and can be manipulated easily in its perceived value by hearsay and forum threads. Not to mention that its the prefered money laundering system of many dubious people.


That is true of every sovereign fiat currency in the world.



technically it is also true of every commodity based currency as well (like gold)

there is no such thing as a currency that cannot be manipulated and that isn't valued based on supply and demand.

Felix Decat
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:06:00 - [19]
 

Bitcoins. . . Rolling Eyes

Cool social and economic experiment does not a currency make.

As was already mentioned, if its not legal tender, if its not backed by a commodity or something else holding intrinsic value, its not a currency. I would go so far as to say that it hold less intrinsic value then the ISK/Plex the OP is trying to trade it for. At least ISK is an accepted form of virtual currency.

Bitcoin bashing out of the way, if you can find a place to trade BTC's for PLEX's, be my guest and more power to you. If were even still talking about BTC's a year from now, i'll be shocked.

Khalia Nestune
Mad Stacks
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:13:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Khalia Nestune on 02/09/2011 03:20:59
I wrote a blog post about this some time back: http://www.mylootyourtears.com/?p=1320

I LOL'd a bit at the currency 'experts' here; but any currency comes down to trust in what other people think it's worth. US Dollars have no built-in value. They're only 'worth' something because other people will take them for money, and because they're backed by 'The full faith and credit' of the US Government.

You used to be able to turn in US Dollars (or Silver and Gold certificates as they were known) for actual silver and gold, but that era is long gone; your paper money is only worth something because Uncle Sam says it is!

Bitcoins are valuable to other people for two primary reasons: They're semi-anonymous, and they're easily exchangeable. Two users can exchange bit coins with only identifying numbers - like 'numbered' bank accounts - with no connection to their real name. This makes them popular with people who don't want lawyers or the government to know what they're doing with their money.

Good for tax evasion or buying illegal goods? Sure. Good for donating to groups that your government doesn't like? Sure. Like, say, pro-democracy groups in China. Remember that "your government" is not a good thing, for a lot of people on this planet.

The other bonus for those of us with computers is that the bitcoin system is designed around hard-solve, easy-verify cryptography; much like the encryption used in SSL for securing your web and email transactions. Why is that good? Because someone has to do the hard computing work to generation to work that shows bitcoins weren't created out of thin air by someone, or 'spent' twice. Your home computer can do this. In return, you get a (small) amount of bitcoins yourself. This serves to create the actual medium of currency and encourage participation.

Will it exist long term? I don't know. Can I have my idle GPU make some bitcoins for me and get some PLEX? Yes. Good enough for me.

Note: Price for stuff will very wildly based on the current BTC-to-dollar exchange rate. Last month I bought a GTC for 2.88 BTC. Right now it's 4.10 BTC. On the other hand, I could cash out my bitcoins for more real dollars now than last month.

Hope this helps.


Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:15:00 - [21]
 

Here, i'll sell you a bunch of 1's and 0's that your computer can bust its ass on for hours on end, if you agree to pretend it has value. BTW no you cant have my real name.

Doesn't sound like a scam to me.

supersexysucker
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:17:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: AllyKat

It's not legal tender.

If you owe money to someone, they cannot refuse payment if you are using legal tender.

The day you can pay a speeding ticket in bitcoins is when it becomes 'real'.

It's like calling yourself a deity - it only means something if you can burn bushes down using deity RL hacks.

It's like saying you own a Ferrari - it only means something when you pull away from the lights in a flash of red.
AK


Go to dunkin doughnuts… pay with a $100 bill… they won’t take it… does that mean it is not legal tender? Try a 50… how many places do not even accept that… again must not be legal tender right?

So, say you get a speeding ticket in the USA… and want to pay in euros… it won’t be accepted… does that mean euros are not “real”.

Paper money is backed by nothing… it’s paper… rofl… the difference between a BTC and a USD… you can only get X BTC and no more. Where USD’s just get printed off whenever we feel like it.

Could you fail anymore, you just said no money is real rofl.

Khalia Nestune
Mad Stacks
Posted - 2011.09.02 03:19:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Felix Decat


Bitcoin bashing out of the way, if you can find a place to trade BTC's for PLEX's, be my guest and more power to you. If were even still talking about BTC's a year from now, i'll be shocked.



You might want to check your history. Bitcoins have been around since 2008. I'm not 100% sure they'll be around next year either, but they've lasted longer than many other 'virtual' currencies.

Felix Decat
Posted - 2011.09.02 04:21:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Felix Decat on 02/09/2011 04:32:09
Originally by: supersexysucker

STUFF




The issue of legal tender and merchants refusing to take a sack full of pennies has been covered a million times already.
All that the phrase means is that if you offer US money in order to pay off a debt, the lender has to either accept it or lose their ability to claim that you haven't tried to pay off the debt. The Treasury also grants business the ability to set on the manner in which they will accept dollars. A vendor has the right to refuse cash altogether and insist on payment by credit card if they want, because ultimately were still talking about dollars.

In short, businesses and individuals can still refuse to accept high bills or huge sacks of pennies for sales. The end.

Next thing: Euros are not legal tender in the United States... the end.

Paper money is almost always backed by something, In this case, US dollars are backed by the US government.
And no, in fact the whole idea behind BTC's is that they can be conjured out of thin air by anyone with an internet connection and a PC. (Albeit at such a slow pace now that you spend more money in electricity then you will ever get in BTC's)
If that very simple fact held true for the US dollar, the dollar would collapse within a day.
The US government can print legitimate money, you cant... that is what makes all the difference in the world.

And before you get off on the gold tangent... let me ask you this. Why is gold valuable?

-Rarity?

Think again, if that's all it took, I have a few one of a kind paintings here my 4yr old daughter drew I would like to sell you. One is of a spider with 7 legs... that will be $17,000 please.

There are several factors that go into creating a viable currency. Trust, Control and Supply. And when it comes to BTC's, they are sketchy on all counts.


A cool social/economic experiment does not a currency make.
I have been paying attention to BTC's for quite a while now. I was initially very intrigued, and I still am from a solely academic perspective but I am unconvinced that BTC's will ever evolve as a legitimate form of exchange.

M5 Tuttle
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:03:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: M5 Tuttle on 02/09/2011 05:04:10
If bitcoin fails it will be because illegal activity associated with its use causes legislation for restricting it. Those of us who understand the science of the cryptography know that from a "hackability/counterfitability" perspective it is completely sound. If you disagree with this then i suggest you do some reading. If you think that the fact that someone's exchange account at a bitcoin trading site got hacked is in any way evidence to the contrary then im sorry but youre dumb.

I am also tentative about investing in it, but only because imworried about the government somehow shutting it down.

Felix Decat
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:14:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: M5 Tuttle
Edited by: M5 Tuttle on 02/09/2011 05:04:10
If bitcoin fails it will be because illegal activity associated with its use causes legislation for restricting it. Those of us who understand the science of the cryptography know that from a "hackability/counterfitability" perspective it is completely sound. If you disagree with this then i suggest you do some reading. If you think that the fact that someone's exchange account at a bitcoin trading site got hacked is in any way evidence to the contrary then im sorry but youre dumb.

I am also tentative about investing in it, but only because imworried about the government somehow shutting it down.


Right. . . If bitcoin fails it will be because the handful of people sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars in bitcoins decide to dump. That or when people realize that there isnt anything to do with bitcoins aside from selling them to other bitcoin users.

I doubt that the government will do anything about regulating bitcoins. At this point they account for about 0.0000003% of the GDP. The only people that seem to care about bitcoins are bitcoins users. And the ones I run across only ever seem to be concerned with 2 things, promotion of bitcoins and the bitcoin exchange rates. (Which have been tanking for months, in the last year they have lost what, 65% of their value?)

Adrie Atticus
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:17:00 - [27]
 

Replying in a ponzi-thread.

M5 Tuttle
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Felix Decat

That or when people realize that there isnt anything to do with bitcoins aside from selling them to other bitcoin users.



Yes sort of like how the only people who care about dollars are those who trade them with other dollar users. It's crazy I know.

Listen, no one is trying to convince you to buy bitcoins. You have a problem with the idea of trading ISK/PLEX for Bitcoins because it contradicts your other point, that "no one buys anything with bitcoins." You do realize this right?

Felix Decat
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:47:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: M5 Tuttle
Originally by: Felix Decat

That or when people realize that there isnt anything to do with bitcoins aside from selling them to other bitcoin users.



Yes sort of like how the only people who care about dollars are those who trade them with other dollar users. It's crazy I know.

Listen, no one is trying to convince you to buy bitcoins. You have a problem with the idea of trading ISK/PLEX for Bitcoins because it contradicts your other point, that "no one buys anything with bitcoins." You do realize this right?


No. . . not the same thing. I heard a NPR story about bitcoins just the other day about a lovely little sandwich shop in Chicago that was now accepting bitcoins. Like someone else said already, when I can pay my speeding ticket in bitcoins I will bow down to you and seriously question my higher order thinking skills.

And if you are keeping track of my literal statements, in my very first response I said "if the OP can find a place that accepts bitcoins for ISK/Plex, more power to him" Trading one fictitious currency for another is a pretty square deal in my book. But this conversation has since moved on.

Your claim, like that of most every other bitcoin enthusiast is that this is a new thing, a currency that is impervious to any and all manipulation, the next best thing to the gold standard (or at least better then fiat) and is fundamentally sound.

My claim is that any currency that is founded on the idea of randomly "poofing" money into existence on a completely anonymous basis is not the best idea for a monetary system.

M5 Tuttle
Posted - 2011.09.02 05:57:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Felix Decat


Your claim, like that of most every other bitcoin enthusiast is that this is a new thing, a currency that is impervious to any and all manipulation, the next best thing to the gold standard (or at least better then fiat) and is fundamentally sound.




I didn't say that and I'm pretty sure no one has. Surely no currency is immune to manipulation in some form or another. I said that it isn't hackable / counterfitable.

Originally by: Felix Decat


My claim is that any currency that is founded on the idea of randomly "poofing" money into existence on a completely anonymous basis is not the best idea for a monetary system.


The fact that this is how you think it works is enough for me to disregard everything else you are saying.


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