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blankseplocked Autocannon/Artillery Ammo for Missions - Question
 
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My Postman
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:29:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: My Postman on 01/09/2011 13:30:36
Dear Ladies and Gents!

As i finished my Gallente path (can fly every ship (mission related), T2 fitted) i started crosstraining Minnie. I can use the Hurricane, and T2 med Autocannon/Artillery is not far away. But as i have no clue if using Artillery or Autocannon - some google-fu threads show Autocannon fit - i wonder if you, the experianced Auto/Artillery user, has to deal with ALL kinds of ammo as they do different damage in different ranges.

As Gallente, you load Antimatter to your Rails, and well, do *some* damage to the rats (anyway loughable compared to my T2 sentries). So, does the "pro" mission runner on minnie ships always load/unload his guns with different projectile ammo when getting the mission fighting the different rats?

Is there a "jack of all trades" i.e using two or three types of ammo, you can store in your hangar and switch while on flight to mission?


Thanks in advance.

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:39:00 - [2]
 

Phased plasma, fusion and EMP will cover your needs just fine with the odd Barrage thrown in for the really long range shots.

Nothing else is really needed in pve.

McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:21:00 - [3]
 

If you want to use the Hurricane, I'd go with artillery personally, the ROF bonus really suits them well. For artillery all you need are:

emp------------> for sansha and blood raiders
fusion---------> angels
phased plasma--> serpentis and guristas

Disregard the ammunition with tracking bonus like depleted uranium, the DPS loss is not worth the added range and tracking. If you want to use autocannons, you can carry some barrage with you for long engagements, as said. Autocannons only make sense on ships with falloff bonus however, like Machariel or Vargur, otherwise you lose too much DPS in deep falloff. For the usual missioning battleship (Maelstrom) you should be using artillery as well and feed it with republic fleet ammo- the low ROF makes it worthwile and the alpha will produce a smile on your face.

Valor D'eglise
Gallente
Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:39:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Linda Shadowborn
Phased plasma, fusion and EMP will cover your needs just fine with the odd Barrage thrown in for the really long range shots.

Nothing else is really needed in pve.


This.

Plasma for Serpentis, mercenaries, EoM and Guristas, EMP for drones, blood raider and Sansha, fusion for Angels, to name the pirate factions.
Some of those are controversial or might need to be adjusted to the mission. Some EoM BS for example have a very high heat resistance to their shields, so maybe fusion might work better overall.

The long range ammo does too little damage to be considerable, especially if you have a prop mod (which you should have as a mission runner).

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.09.02 11:19:00 - [5]
 

I did something so simple its shocking...

I went and bought from 5-30K of each ammo, depending on how much I think I would use it.

then I went into notepad, wrote a short summery looks something like this:

EMP- -50% 1.0 tracking
etc ----- tracking etc....

I kept 800-1500 of each ammo type in my cargo and the notepad open till I memorized it by heart.

Now I switch ammo on the fly, I now enjoy +60 range, or 1.2 tracking or short range monger damage, at will.

So simple and so perfect... Do it.

My Postman
Posted - 2011.09.02 11:25:00 - [6]
 

Thanks for all the valid answers, this was exactly what i was searching for.

Daniel Plain
Posted - 2011.09.02 14:06:00 - [7]
 

one small ting i have to add to McRoll's otherwise correct and exhaustive answer is that against angels, you can usually get away with autocannons over artillery since most of their ships orbit very close.

Kira Deschain
Minmatar
United Earth Directorate
The Unforgiven Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.02 19:59:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Kira Deschain on 03/09/2011 01:43:53

Use this site, bookmark it in the Eve browser too. Pick your hardeners and ammo according to the NPC you are facing. I use Titanium Sabot primarily, because most rats are most susceptible to kinetic more so than the other damage types. I stock up on Titanium Sabot and Phased Plasma and I also like to keep Barrage around in case I'm forced to stay at longer range than normal. IMO, faction ammo for missions isn't worth the higher price but then I don't have a money tree in my station either. :)

http://www.ogrank.com/content/view/698/59/

(this site's info may not be exact, but it works to my benefit:) )

Personally, I keep a Hurricane fitted with 720mm II howitzers and a Cyclone fitted with 425mm II ACs. I usually only fly the Cyclone when fighting Angel Cartel, because they like to get in close. With arti on the Hurricane I just warp into the site and sit there, maybe turn the hardeners on and then start shooting. 720s have great range and almost all of the enemies are popped before they can get in range. With an AB fitted I can keep that range at will.

Reginald Ruettelplatt
Posted - 2011.09.03 22:14:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Reginald Ruettelplatt on 03/09/2011 22:16:03
I'm still fairly new to EVE, but pretty much all i've been doing so far is missioning/fiddling around with my hurricane, so i'll add my two cents:

- Autocannons on a hurricane either need an AB (you need to fly really close up to the enemy to get full dps) and alot of flying around without shooting or have massive falloff problems. I never bothered actually trying to kill anything from far with medium autocannons, but i don't think you get good DPS on your targets even with tech 2 guns.
The good thing about autocannons is that you can fit quite a good tank on the hurricane and still get an AB. I usually only use them as an emergency if there's a mission where i cannot afford to put gyros on because i need the tank so badly.
With autocannons i only use the short range ammo that is best for the mission.

- I'd recommend artilleries for most level 4 missions (put 2 gyros on so you get some dps, rest tank and an AB) since they reduce the travel time greatly compared to autocannons. With artilleries i use ammo for all three ranges. The short range ammo is for battleships because i need the dps, the medium range ammo is for cruisers so i don't need to travel so far and the long range ammo is good for sniping frigates.

What i haven't tried yet is using the hurricane as a sniper with 3-4 gyros, a tracking enhancer, extended lock range and tremor m ammo because my fitting skills aren't at 5 yet and i can't use tech 2 guns yet either. In eft the fit looks decent though, at least for missions where you don't get attacked/webbed as soon as you enter the mission area.

Daniel Plain
Posted - 2011.09.03 23:47:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Daniel Plain on 03/09/2011 23:48:02
Originally by: Reginald Ruettelplatt
...

titanium will only outperform plasma on a target that is farther away than ~40km or very small and orbiting. also, forget tremor and hail. it's like cutting bread with a baseball bat.

Reginald Ruettelplatt
Posted - 2011.09.04 00:34:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Reginald Ruettelplatt on 04/09/2011 02:45:02
Originally by: Daniel Plain
Edited by: Daniel Plain on 03/09/2011 23:48:02
titanium will only outperform plasma on a target that is farther away than ~40km or very small and orbiting. also, forget tremor and hail. it's like cutting bread with a baseball bat.


If/when titanium sabot outperforms phased plasma depends on

1) boosts to your optimal range
2) boosts to your falloff
3) target's signature radius (smaller targets require more tracking and/or distance on artilleries)
4) transversal velocity (same as 3)
5) enemy target's resistances
6) the relation between your dps and the target's intended orbit range (being able to keep more range reduces you having to "chase" targets that want to orbit you at 40-60km)
If you got enough dps to kill them reasonably fast at 50km then it's better to use mid-range ammo instead of chasing him and killing him with short range ammo.
7) being able to go further out oftentimes means you need less tank so you can put more gyros/trackers on your ship


From my experience (on my low-sp character with medium artilleries) it's better to kill the small stuff (most cruisers and battlecruisers) with mid-range ammo and use short range version on tough ships.
On a maxed character i could imagine that mid-range ammo (and tremor, especially vs explosive-vulnerable factions like angels) becomes even better. Who wants to fly below 30 km to the target ship if you can keep killing them from 60-70 km while slowly flying to the next accelrator gate?

Can't say for sure for tremor (can't use tech 2 guns yet), but i definately know that i do nearly all level 4's faster in my hurricane if i use mid-range ammo against soft targets (and sometimes frigates to snipe them).


Edit:

I looked up the optimal range and falloff values for 720mm arties (tech 2) for a level 5 character in EFT (no tracking enhancers, tracking computer or implants fitted) and calculated that from a raw damage-number point of view mid-range ammo starts to out-damage short-range ammo at 31830.45655 km.
This doesn't take the mid-range ammo's tracking boost of 20% (compared to short-range ammo) into account, so the real point is somewhere before 31830 km in that case.

Now damage types need to be considered and how they fare against the target's resistances, if you would receive less damage by going further out and thus could mount one more gyrostabilizer and if you would save time by going further out because you wouldn't need to chase the next battleship that orbits you at 50km for example.

Very difficult to say in general, but the break-even point for a hurricane without falloff-/optimal range enhancements should be around 30 km i would guess (enemy resistances and saved traveling time most likely playing the most important role there).

Daniel Plain
Posted - 2011.09.04 12:28:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Daniel Plain on 04/09/2011 12:29:22
everything you said is true in theory but please consider the following:
1. gurista ships have only 10% thermal resistance, most other rats are also very low on thermal.
2. you almost never fly a cane without at least one, ususally two tracking enhancers or tracking computers
3. when you DO have some tracking mods, you hardly ever need the tracking bonus of titanium because your tracking is good enough for cruisers and battleships without it.
4. as for frigates, well that's what drones are for, unless you really desperately need to snipe them fast (which is what i said in my earlier post).

tldr: you're right in theory but in practice short range ammo will still deal more damage in spite of everything.

Reginald Ruettelplatt
Posted - 2011.09.04 14:02:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Daniel Plain

1. gurista ships have only 10% thermal resistance, most other rats are also very low on thermal.


That depends on what kind of mission targets you get (in what space you are missioning).

I do level 4's in my cane (didn't bother to learn Battle ships yet) in minmatar space currently and from the factions i go up against thermal damage is never the optimum, it's always middle-of-the road. Maybe that's different in other regions.
Oftentimes my opponents are angels (explosive vulnerable) or Amarr (em-vulnerable), others are kinetic-vulnerable (and titanium sabot has a 75% kinetic focus).

Originally by: Daniel Plain

2. you almost never fly a cane without at least one, ususally two tracking enhancers or tracking computers



Why do i need a tracking enhancer if i don't intend to snipe from very far away?
The medium artilleries track very well on anything except for frigates. I'd put trackers on if i used autocannons, but not for arties, because my hurricane can't dish enough damage from very far away anyway as long as i can't mount tech 2 artilleries and use tech 2 ammo.
How would your hurricane look like with trackers? I already got 2 gyros on (and i benefit from those alot more than from trackers, so i wouldn't put them out). If i add at least one tracker now, how do i get enough tank for my limited range with only 1-2 low slots left ?

Originally by: Daniel Plain

3. when you DO have some tracking mods, you hardly ever need the tracking bonus of titanium because your tracking is good enough for cruisers and battleships without it.



I don't need a tracking bonus as is from my experience. The argument i made about the tracking bonus for medium ammos was that it adds a tiny bit for free, so the range at which the raw outgoing damage from medium ammos becomes greater than the outgoing damage from close range ammos is a *bit* before the number i have posted.
When flying around at about the range where medium and melee ammo become equal, it's mainly the damage type that decides which is better, at least for medium artilleries.

Originally by: Daniel Plain

4. as for frigates, well that's what drones are for, unless you really desperately need to snipe them fast (which is what i said in my earlier post).



Yup, drones do great vs frigs. However, when i'm approaching a group that is still far away i still snipe the frigates first as soon as they enter my lock range, it's still better than getting webbed and scrambled until my drones have dealt with them (safety first before speed for me).

Originally by: Daniel Plain

tldr: you're right in theory but in practice short range ammo will still deal more damage in spite of everything.



Not always (see above). If i got a kinetic-vulnerable target (caldari or EoM for example) then titanium sabot is better slightly past its optimal range compared to any of the short range ammos, because none of the short range ammos deals alot of kinetic.


 

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