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blankseplocked Balancing dreads, without nerfing supercaps.
 
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Anile8er
Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:58:00 - [1]
 

So alot of ideas are flying around about how to balance capitals, particularly dreads, and most of them involve nerfing supercaps to some extent. Personally I don't think supercaps need an hip point nerf becasue then we are back at pre supercap buff and supercaps die fast enough as it is to large groups of other supercaps. Evaluating and changing each supercap, dread, and capital weapons system is alot of work for CCP. So what can be done? How about a single or several changes to a single module?


Primary idea: The Siege Module bonuses a dreads resistances by 60% when activated. That is shield, armor, and hull. Example for those who might be slow on the uptake: A dread with a Damage Control II and a Siege Module activated would have an 84% resistance to all damage types on the hull.

Secondary ideas: The Siege Module bonuses a dreads cap recharge by 25% when activated. This gives dreads a bit more longevity in combat. Also increasing the damage bonus on the Siege Module could give dreads a bit more punch in combat.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:12:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 31/08/2011 23:16:28
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 31/08/2011 23:14:22
Originally by: Anile8er
So alot of ideas are flying around about how to balance capitals, particularly dreads, and most of them involve nerfing supercaps to some extent.



The supercap nerf has nothing to do with dreads. They are two completely different subjects.Dreads are useless ATM because other ships do their role better even before the super cap changes dreads where primarily a basher. They werent very useful in fleet fights. They put out as much DPS as a BS unless sieged. So no reason risking a 1.5 bil isk ship when a 200 mil isk ship will put out the same DPS and is more manueverable and gives you a lot more options in a fight.

Supercaps are being nerfed because in a group they nearly unstoppable. A excerpt from my post on Scarriers from another thread.

"Ok here is the problem.

* I can counter 200 frigates.
* I can counter 200 cruisers.
* I can counter 200 battlecruisers.
* I can counter 200 battleships.
* I can counter 200 carriers and dreads.

.. All of these i can counter without using supers for all the reasons i cant counter 200 Scarriers.

* I CANNOT counter 200 super carriers.

Why?

* Because I dont have 200 super carrier pilots.
* Because they are immune to EWAR.
* Because they have a drone/fighter for every occasion.
* Because they can make their own cap out of thin air.
* Because they can have over 90% resist on the north side of 60 mil EHP with NO RESIST HOLES.
* Because they can spider tank literally till the end of time.
* Because they can put out 8000 DPS each WHILE Spider tanking and keeping each others cap topped off.
And finally

* Because they are by far the most overpowered ship in the game in a group. In fact in a group with skilled pvp pilots they are literally not stoppable except with an even bigger supercap fleet. The only effective counter to 200 Scarriers, besides 300 Scrarriers, is 200 Titans. Then WTF you counter the Titans with? "

In a group either of all scarriers or a mix of scarriers and titans they are nearly unstoppable except with a larger group of supers or a ridiculous amount of non supers in which your going to lose a massive amount of ships just to kill a few of the supers... if that many.


EDIT: On another note the only ones against a supercap nerf are the ones that are currently blobbing with them which consist of mainly a few hundred people and their naptrain. A majority of eve wants to see them nerfed or doesnt care either way( hi sec carebears that never plan on leaving hi sec.)

Anile8er
Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:08:00 - [3]
 

Thorian Baalnorn,

Yes dreads have always been useless and weren't used much before the supercap buff... thats why PL never had effective "snipe dread" fleets, Atlas never had 50+ man dread fleets, either did IT/BOB, Goonswarm never stocked station with fleet dreads or used any for that matter, Red Alliance never used any dread fleets in capital combat and of course the former NC never used dreads either in capital combat. Pretty much only a "basher"...




Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.09.01 17:30:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Anile8er
Thorian Baalnorn,

Yes dreads have always been useless and weren't used much before the supercap buff... thats why PL never had effective "snipe dread" fleets, Atlas never had 50+ man dread fleets, either did IT/BOB, Goonswarm never stocked station with fleet dreads or used any for that matter, Red Alliance never used any dread fleets in capital combat and of course the former NC never used dreads either in capital combat. Pretty much only a "basher"...






I never said they werent used much.i said they werent very useful.I should know i am in one of the alliances you mentioned. I know how dreads were used then and how they are used now. Their were normal cap fleet fights then but just because people used them didnt make them paticularly useful. They could withstand AOE DDs a lot better. and full titan/SC groups hadnt came into play yet. Thus their usefulness was extended to a DDD proof combat/ siege ship.

Your saying dont nerf supers buff dreads. The problem with supers is not that dreads are underpowered. Dreads where underpowered before the super buff...just more useful than they are with the buff now(but still fairly useless). Supers need a nerf because they are too powerful.

Dreads could use an out of siege DPS buff though.

Anile8er
Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:00:00 - [5]
 

Thorian Baalnorn,

I already noticed your employment history.

What I'm suggesting is that CCP focus less on what can be nerfed with supercaps and more on what can be done to buff a ship class that will allow a more "common" player, one without an SC, to get involved in capital combat. Dreads could use a damage buff however I completely disagree with you about "when out of siege".

Simply put I believe a capital ship in the sub 2 billion ISK range, capable of doing 5k to 7k DPS, with a resistance based tank which would allow it to absorb a doomsday and tank in the ball park of 35k to 45k DPS would be useful in capital combat. I'm not just talking about large scale fleets either. I'm talking about small corp/alliance operations as well.

Jonasan Mikio
Black Hole Bandits
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Anile8er
Thorian Baalnorn,

I already noticed your employment history.

What I'm suggesting is that CCP focus less on what can be nerfed with supercaps and more on what can be done to buff a ship class that will allow a more "common" player, one without an SC, to get involved in capital combat. Dreads could use a damage buff however I completely disagree with you about "when out of siege".

Simply put I believe a capital ship in the sub 2 billion ISK range, capable of doing 5k to 7k DPS, with a resistance based tank which would allow it to absorb a doomsday and tank in the ball park of 35k to 45k DPS would be useful in capital combat. I'm not just talking about large scale fleets either. I'm talking about small corp/alliance operations as well.



OP, your talking about a different matter completely, do dreads need buffed of course they do, at the cost of becoming just a big battleship... they need to fill the "artillery" role. Though I think Dust will see dreads being used alot more.

However even of dreads are buffer super caps still need nerfed, super caps, should still be able to be taken out by sub cap fleets.

Anile8er
Five Fat Soldiers
Posted - 2011.09.01 22:52:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Jonasan Mikio
Originally by: Anile8er
Thorian Baalnorn,

I already noticed your employment history.

What I'm suggesting is that CCP focus less on what can be nerfed with supercaps and more on what can be done to buff a ship class that will allow a more "common" player, one without an SC, to get involved in capital combat. Dreads could use a damage buff however I completely disagree with you about "when out of siege".

Simply put I believe a capital ship in the sub 2 billion ISK range, capable of doing 5k to 7k DPS, with a resistance based tank which would allow it to absorb a doomsday and tank in the ball park of 35k to 45k DPS would be useful in capital combat. I'm not just talking about large scale fleets either. I'm talking about small corp/alliance operations as well.



OP, your talking about a different matter completely, do dreads need buffed of course they do, at the cost of becoming just a big battleship... they need to fill the "artillery" role. Though I think Dust will see dreads being used alot more.

However even of dreads are buffer super caps still need nerfed, super caps, should still be able to be taken out by sub cap fleets.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10494388

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9753311

There are plenty more if you doing some looking around....

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Anile8er
Originally by: Jonasan Mikio
Originally by: Anile8er
Thorian Baalnorn,

I already noticed your employment history.

What I'm suggesting is that CCP focus less on what can be nerfed with supercaps and more on what can be done to buff a ship class that will allow a more "common" player, one without an SC, to get involved in capital combat. Dreads could use a damage buff however I completely disagree with you about "when out of siege".

Simply put I believe a capital ship in the sub 2 billion ISK range, capable of doing 5k to 7k DPS, with a resistance based tank which would allow it to absorb a doomsday and tank in the ball park of 35k to 45k DPS would be useful in capital combat. I'm not just talking about large scale fleets either. I'm talking about small corp/alliance operations as well.



OP, your talking about a different matter completely, do dreads need buffed of course they do, at the cost of becoming just a big battleship... they need to fill the "artillery" role. Though I think Dust will see dreads being used alot more.

However even of dreads are buffer super caps still need nerfed, super caps, should still be able to be taken out by sub cap fleets.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10494388

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9753311

There are plenty more if you doing some looking around....


I can show you dozens of super kills. Big deal. 180 and 270 people on those killmails. I helped kill a super a few months ago that the pilot just decided he didnt want to play anymore or something. He said he didnt care, didnt even fight back or try to get free just sat their in local while we popped him and talked, not **** talked either.

Just because you can nab one here and there with a very large sub cap fleet dont mean they are fine. They are overpowered and need to be nerfed.Even CCP admits they made a mistake in buffing them. They wanted people to use them but not an entire fleet of them to dominate all of 0.0.

What you are giving is a PL argument. They can be killed but they are to hard to kill and require to many resources/losses to take out if fleeted which they are 99.9% of the time.

Dreads could use some love. I dont think they need a defense buff. They need a damage buff out of siege or the siege penalties removed( which would make calling it siege pointless.) Dreads need to be able to adjust to a fluid battlefield and still pump out more than the laughable BS DPS they pump out now out of siege. A dread is an offensive ship not a defensive ship. A carrier is a defensive ship. And as an offense ship they should be able to pump good DPS but have a medicore defense that requires them to have carriers in their fleet to increase their survivability. Thus without carriers they should be fairly easy to take down. They, in relation to other games, should be the meat and the carriers should be the meat shields.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:01:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn


Dreads could use an out of siege DPS buff though.


Why would you think that this was a good idea?

Jonasan Mikio
Black Hole Bandits
Posted - 2011.09.02 00:07:00 - [10]
 

Show me a case where a super died, when at least 50 allied ones were on field... and ill side fully with your argument...

Now show me a case where at least 1 of any other ship died when at least 50 allied ones were on the field.....

My point...

See my change.. personally I dont think they should be anything more but offensive carriers... we dont need any all powerful ships in eve...

Mr Peanut420
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.09.06 23:56:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Mr Peanut420 on 06/09/2011 23:57:48
The nerf won't do much to supercarrier dominance anyway...fighters can kill any ship that can tackle them just fine.

You can't buff dreads in way that will make them much more effective vs subcaps, and the resistence bonus would do that.

Make dreads repairable in siege mode! The time where this deficiency was necessary is long past.

Also tweak normal carrier drone bandwidth so they'll be allowed to deploy maximum of 5 fighterbombers. That would allow them to do 2000 dps to other caps without increasing their damage to subcaps.

That would really help against supers without nerfing them.


 

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