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bluedot Heleneto
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:58:00 - [1]
 

I am designing a tengu that i am planning on using, and would like to know the average range that people in tengus shoot at targets in? I am able to configure the ship to between 30 and 45 km ranges, however, if the 45km is overkill then it would be nice to know that.

BearJews
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:56:00 - [2]
 

Ham tengu sucks compared to the HML tengu unless they are close range missions (damsel in distress)

with tech II launchers you can shoot from 60km away with the right rigs, but that still doesn't compare to an HML tengu which does it up to 100km or so.

Rhathyl
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:50:00 - [3]
 

if you're talking pve, hml are superior.
if you're talking pvp, i would suggest you tailor your range to whether you want to be inside or out of point range. a brick/ham/point tengu isn't a bad idea, but it's also asking to be killed.

bluedot Heleneto
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:44:00 - [4]
 

Why would you go with heavy missles over heavy assult missles? Hams get about 1/4 more dps, and if you really need range you can fit javelin, however, everything either orbits in the 45km range, or near enough to it that you could burn a bit closer to it then shoot it after your previous target is dead. With javelin, it has slightly lower dps then hm, however it still gets 75km range

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:36:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: bluedot Heleneto
Why would you go with heavy missles over heavy assult missles? Hams get about 1/4 more dps, and if you really need range you can fit javelin, however, everything either orbits in the 45km range, or near enough to it that you could burn a bit closer to it then shoot it after your previous target is dead. With javelin, it has slightly lower dps then hm, however it still gets 75km range


PvE: HAMs do poorly vs elite frigates, so time gained shooting BS will be lost when shooting frigates. On a low EHP ship reliant on speed for tank, and with no drone bay, this is a major consideration. For webber-heavy missions like Silence The Informant, Sansha Worlds Collide, etc, a HAM Tengu could be in deep trouble very quickly. Good luck killing Spider Drones with HAMs!

Additionally, there are quite a few missions where that extra 50Km range is a big timesaver; Pirate Invasion, Unauthorised Military Presence, etc etc. Having to burn into range for over a minute means the HAM Tengu cedes a huge headstart to the HML Tengu.

Lastly, the HML Tengu can kite much more easily.

Rhathyl
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:14:00 - [6]
 

what above poster said.
Rigor rigs do not affect the explosion radius of HAMs. With HMLs and rigor rigs you can eventually 1 or 2 volley web/scram frigates whereas with HAMS you sit there plugging away at them until you realize you're down to 50m/s and your booster can't keep up with the incoming battleship DPS.

Kara Books
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:36:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kara Books on 01/09/2011 14:37:17
its never bad to have both point blank range outright DPS and long range sniping ability.

Heavy missiles are known for exceeding 75KM range they are standard missiles for PvE maybe some use for PvP

Heavy assault missiles are known for exceeding 55KM range, they have a smaller damage per volley but more then make up with rate of fire for an overall increased DPS over the regular heavy missiles.

Heavy missiles are limited but the range is perfect.

Heavy assault missiles, need more love and care when using them, but once you master the damage to deal that causes the most damage to enemy rats, you will be pretty happy, Also, on a side note.

In general heavy assault missiles are the most common because they can be used for PvP and PvE, if you go with heavy assault, only later on you will understand and appreciate the choice you made.

If your one of those totally solo farmer types, go head and do Heavy missiles, you will do better with those if thats the direction your going.

Ildryn
Posted - 2011.09.01 19:16:00 - [8]
 

I prefer HML because i can kill everything at max locking range 115k.

Handy for several missions.

My current setup is 115k range and 647 dps.
Sure i can get 858 dps....but at 27k with rage.
And 771 dps with faction at 30k
Not to mention how slow i will be killing frigates. lol

I prefer to be cap stable so i use CCC rigs.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:04:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: bluedot Heleneto
Why would you go with heavy missles over heavy assult missles? Hams get about 1/4 more dps, and if you really need range you can fit javelin, however, everything either orbits in the 45km range, or near enough to it that you could burn a bit closer to it then shoot it after your previous target is dead. With javelin, it has slightly lower dps then hm, however it still gets 75km range


In short, Spider Drones. They will slow you down and make you vulnerable to everything else. Killing them with HM's is enough of a pain in the ass; HAMs are just that much worse.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:46:00 - [10]
 

HML Furies do more damage than T1 HAMs. Therefore, a HAM Tengu must use T2 Rage ammo to be competitive with T2 HMLs.

Here's a reprint of some numbers to demonstrate the importance of weapon range.

Quote:
Even being out of range 5km can pretty much kibosh the HAM's DPS advantage over the HML.

Numbers:
An AB Tengu moves at 661m/s. If your target is 5km out of range, it takes (5,000m / 661m/s) = 7.6 seconds to get into range, not counting the time it takes to turn and accelerate.

In that 7.6 seconds, the 784 DPS tengu does (7.6 * 784) = 5,958.4 damage. The HAM Tengu does (916 - 784) = 132 more DPS than the HML Tengu. Thus:

5,984.4 + 784t = 916t
5958.4 = 132t
t = 45.1



It takes 45.1 seconds for the HAM Tengu's DPS to catch up to the HML Tengu's DPS.

And that was just for 5km...


edit: For every 1 second you spend getting into range, the HAM Tengu needs 5.9 seconds to catch up to the HML Tengu's DPS.


Sunviking
Posted - 2011.09.02 09:21:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Sunviking on 02/09/2011 09:59:31
Hi,

I use HAMs on my Tengu for PvE, in combination with a Fed Navy Webber and normal Target Painter (I only use 1 shield hardener). It means any frigate dies in seconds if it comes close enough to web me.

You can get Rage HAMs range up to 42km if you have full skills and full rigging, even more with Javelin HAMs.

Heavy Missle Launchers are not really supposed to work in conjunction with a speed-tanking ship like the Tengu for PvE purposes, which is why I use HAMs setup on mine.

I am sure peope will disagree with me on the above, but it works for me and I make up to 30,000LP an hour in highsec, and I don't even have Security Connections skill at level 5.

In answer to the OP though, I think you should aim for an effective range of 36-37km, doable with 2 x t2 rigging and missile range skills at level 5.

P.S I only have 1 faction module on my ship at any one time, so don't bother trying to find me to gank.

Kiwis23
Posted - 2011.09.02 11:58:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Kiwis23 on 02/09/2011 12:03:16
Edited by: Kiwis23 on 02/09/2011 11:59:20
I know everybody says Tengu MUST be a speed tank...
But I built mine without AB, and gave it extra shield boost amplifier. And 4 ballistic controls? Nonsense, 4th one gives almost no bonus. 3 is more than enough, use fourth slot for power diagnostics.

My current Tengu setup, I can tank almost any 4 lvl mission with -

<shipType value="Tengu"/>
<hardware slot="hi slot 0" type="Heavy Missile Launcher II"/>
<hardware slot="hi slot 1" type="Heavy Missile Launcher II"/>
<hardware slot="hi slot 2" type="Heavy Missile Launcher II"/>
<hardware slot="hi slot 3" type="Heavy Missile Launcher II"/>
<hardware slot="hi slot 4" type="Heavy Missile Launcher II"/>
<hardware slot="hi slot 5" type="Heavy Missile Launcher II"/>
<hardware slot="med slot 3" type="Dread Guristas Photon Scattering Field"/>
<hardware slot="med slot 1" type="Invulnerability Field II"/>
<hardware slot="med slot 2" type="Invulnerability Field II"/>
<hardware slot="med slot 4" type="Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier"/>
<hardware slot="med slot 5" type="Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier"/>
<hardware slot="low slot 3" type="Dark Blood Power Diagnostic System"/>
<hardware slot="low slot 0" type="Ballistic Control System II"/>
<hardware slot="low slot 1" type="Ballistic Control System II"/>
<hardware slot="low slot 2" type="Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System"/>
<hardware slot="med slot 0" type="Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster"/>
<hardware slot="subsystem slot 1" type="Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node"/>
<hardware slot="subsystem slot 0" type="Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate"/>
<hardware slot="subsystem slot 4" type="Tengu Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor"/>
<hardware slot="subsystem slot 3" type="Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay"/>
<hardware slot="subsystem slot 2" type="Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir"/>
<hardware slot="rig slot 0" type="Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I"/>
<hardware slot="rig slot 1" type="Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I"/>
<hardware slot="rig slot 2" type="Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I"/>


It gives me enough DPS to be flying through missions fast, enough tank to do any mission without worries to blow up, cap stable, range 81.5 km, 85 if in a fleet with alt... one volley is 3.8 seconds, not sure about dps, but it's enough for me.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.02 12:57:00 - [13]
 

So you know that your fit is slower, has less DPS, less range and less effective tank, but you use it anyway?

OK, I guess this is an RP thing?

Kiwis23
Posted - 2011.09.02 21:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
So you know that your fit is slower, has less DPS, less range and less effective tank, but you use it anyway?

OK, I guess this is an RP thing?


How does 81 km is LESS than 45? And you may say that my tank is less effective, but it's effective enough for me not to move in single pocket missions, witch makes salvaging really easy. And speed tanks are just really nice fireworks in some missions.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.04 09:23:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kiwis23
Originally by: Malcanis
So you know that your fit is slower, has less DPS, less range and less effective tank, but you use it anyway?

OK, I guess this is an RP thing?


How does 81 km is LESS than 45? And you may say that my tank is less effective, but it's effective enough for me not to move in single pocket missions, witch makes salvaging really easy. And speed tanks are just really nice fireworks in some missions.


81 is less than 118, which is what I (and almost everyone else in an HML Tengu) have.

There's only 1 level 4 mission I know of where relying on a speed tank is a problem, and that's Silence The Informant, Room 2. And even then you can just warp out if you have to, since they only web. However that's such a horrible mission that declining it is no great loss.


 

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