open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked pve shield machariel
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic

Lancashirian
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:13:00 - [1]
 

Ok, so even though it has 7 low slots, I've heard about a shield tanked machariel for pcs that is by far better than an armored version. Could anyone shed some light on this potential setup?

Wolfic
Minmatar
Risk Breakers
Lizard Kings
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:35:00 - [2]
 

[Machariel, Missions]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
[empty high slot]

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I



Puss in Boots
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:03:00 - [3]
 

[Machariel, Machariel]

Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Gist A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Rig how you like. It came with the setup. I lose 40dps or so with out the 4th gyro but gain 30km locking range. The large booster offers plenty of tank.

Navaris Dreadblade
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:04:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/08/2011 19:06:48
I prefer more damage out.

[Machariel]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Core X-Type 100mn Afterburner

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
[empty rig slot]

@poster above me: I can't imagine needing more locking range, do you find it's actually useful?

Lancashirian
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:09:00 - [5]
 

(C. Montgomery Burns Fingers) Excellent...

Thank you, folks.

Puss in Boots
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:00:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Puss in Boots on 31/08/2011 22:00:41
Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade
Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/08/2011 19:06:48
I prefer more damage out.

[Machariel]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Core X-Type 100mn Afterburner

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
[empty rig slot]

@poster above me: I can't imagine needing more locking range, do you find it's actually useful?


Yes. With maxed gunnery skills, I can hit all to 100km with standard phased plasma. It's most effective in AE4 bonus room. 900dps vs 845dps (no drones). The 23km of extra range comes in handy more than the eft warriored 55dps. Plus, I believe it helps against damps a bit which I run into.

Also, i'd not put shield rigs on a mach, the low sig is one of the advantages to using it. Shield rigs just ruins it.

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:02:00 - [7]
 

[Machariel, Machariel 2]
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

100MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L
[empty high slot]

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Vespa II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Something I am going to try in about a week, when T2 large artillery finishes. Ran the Mach as an armor tank with 800 autos, wasn't confident in my shield tank ability at the time. Its been in storage mostly unless I get Serp Blockade because I fly the Vargur now, I swaped with a MWD and just burn into range then let them have it. Works well with auto cannons and takes about 45 minutes to just under an hour for the blockade (damps make it a *****, now I just fly into their range like a fast cruiser and most are still way spread out to do alot of damag), going to try a sniper armor mach for a bit then rip out the armor tank and go with a shield tank.

William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:07:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aqriue
Armor Arty Failfit mostly comprised of modules to compensate for the fact that it's arty


Originally by: Lancashirian
pve shield machariel


Right-o then. I really am not sure why people keep trying for arty machs when auto machs already get more range than you'll usually need for a lot more dps and are more easy to use.

Flakey Foont
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:10:00 - [9]
 

I use a shield Mach for missions, but for Incursions armor can work:

Low
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Mid
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

High
800mm Repeating Artillery II
800mm Repeating Artillery II
800mm Repeating Artillery II
800mm Repeating Artillery II
800mm Repeating Artillery II
800mm Repeating Artillery II
800mm Repeating Artillery II
Auto Targeting System II

Rig
Large Anti-Thermic Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Navaris Dreadblade
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:09:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 01/09/2011 05:18:47
Originally by: Puss in Boots
Yes. With maxed gunnery skills, I can hit all to 100km with standard phased plasma. It's most effective in AE4 bonus room. 900dps vs 845dps (no drones). The 23km of extra range comes in handy more than the eft warriored 55dps. Plus, I believe it helps against damps a bit which I run into.

Also, i'd not put shield rigs on a mach, the low sig is one of the advantages to using it. Shield rigs just ruins it.


Interesting about the locking range. I normally have an alt in system for leadership bonus so it's not worth it, but it is something to consider. If range ever becomes an issue I'll probably just fit an MWD for range dictation instead dropping a Gyro for a Signal Amplifier. X-Types don't get cap penalties and my fit can tank well enough on its own to lose the afterburner.

As far as shield rigs go, one rig increases your signature radius by an astounding 17m (340 to 357). I'll take that for an extra (pre-penalties) 30% EM resist.


Not sure if this is worth mentioning, but my EFTWarrioring shows 1003 DPS (no implants, 4 Gyro) vs. 958 (3 Gyro). 45 DPS difference, but even with those numbers I feel like 45 dps > 25 or so km target range.

xFlyingDutchman
Caldari
Blue Moon Salvage Yard
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:35:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Wolfic
[Machariel, Missions]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
[empty high slot]

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I





This is spot on. :thumbsup:

Torskelrak
Gallente
Malevolent Intentions
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:36:00 - [12]
 

How much are you looking at to get a mach like this? In a vargur not better?

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:01:00 - [13]
 

I see a lot of fittings with Burst Aerator II's. If you've got 4 gyrostabilizers, a T2 burst aerator adds 6.5% to your DPS. On the other hand, you could use two metastasis adjusters, which would add 22% to your tracking.

With that magnitude of increase, wouldn't the tracking rigs be preferable?

Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:07:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
I see a lot of fittings with Burst Aerator II's. If you've got 4 gyrostabilizers, a T2 burst aerator adds 6.5% to your DPS. On the other hand, you could use two metastasis adjusters, which would add 22% to your tracking.

With that magnitude of increase, wouldn't the tracking rigs be preferable?


well on that note fitting a t2locus would boost yuour falloff and you would do more dps in falloff which would likly over take that flat 6.5% when in optimal (almost never).

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:21:00 - [15]
 

Locus coordinators improve optimal, not falloff. You're thinking of ambit extensions. (One would add 5.64%, two would add 7.96%).

Ambits aren't really worthwhile once you've got three TEs, because an ambit gives a smaller bonus than a TE does. Metastasis rigs, on the other hand, give twice the tracking that a TE does, so they're worth considering for the same reason that people use the T2 burst aerator.

Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:23:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Locus coordinators improve optimal, not falloff. You're thinking of ambit extensions. (One would add 5.64%, two would add 7.96%).

Ambits aren't really worthwhile once you've got three TEs, because an ambit gives a smaller bonus than a TE does. Metastasis rigs, on the other hand, give twice the tracking that a TE does, so they're worth considering for the same reason that people use the T2 burst aerator.


yes, i was thinking of ambits.

I thought that 8% for two would mean 8% more applied damage out to the further falloff.


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:34:00 - [17]
 

Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple (if it were, we would not be having this argument). Whether ambits or a RoF implant is preferable is mostly a function of your current range -- and if the ambits are preferable, you're losing too much DPS to falloff and are doing a poor job of range control.

Tracking, on the other hand...

Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple (if it were, we would not be having this argument).


not an argument! i was asking.

I fly a mach a fair bit and have done for a while, just took my chance to ask somone whos tryed before and or done the math ;)

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:39:00 - [19]
 

Perhaps I should have used a different word. Argument is too harsh, and I was quite enjoying the...debate? In any event, I apologize. I did not mean to come across as adversarial.

Unfortunately, I cannot fly a Machariel so I can't really test anything I'm saying. I do know that my Nightmare does an adequate job of popping frigates at about 40km, and the stock Machariel has about 50% more tracking than my tachyon-fit Nightmare...

Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:47:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Muad ''dib on 01/09/2011 10:48:47
Edited by: Muad ''dib on 01/09/2011 10:47:26
3x TE is 69k fall off, one T2 Ambit is 73k and with two its 75k.

So i agree this isnt much at all and would offer less dps gain even at range, than straight up more dps.

edit: its a bit funny how falloff T2 rigs are only 2/3 as effective as a secondary stat on the TE.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:59:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 01/09/2011 11:42:55
Quite the contrary. What's funny is that the TE is so much more effective. Honestly, all of the tracking/optimal/falloff modules in this game are a schizo.

If you compare the optimal and falloff columns in the chart below, I think we gain a little insight into why Minmatar are so popular lately...
Originally by: Tracking
30% = scripted TC2
20% = T2 metastasis
15% = T1 metastasis
9.5% = TE2

Originally by: Optimal
20% = T2 locus
15% = TE2, Scripted TC2, T1 locus

Originally by: Falloff
30% = TE2, Scripted TC2
20% = T2 ambit
15% = T1 ambit

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.09.01 11:42:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 01/09/2011 12:04:56
I wish CCP Nozh could have done what he intended, here. It would have looked like this:
Originally by: Tracking, CCP Nozh
30% = Scripted TC2
20% = T2 rig
15% = T1 rig
9.5% = TE2

Originally by: Range, CCP Nozh
20% = T2 rig,
15% = T1 rig, TE2, scripted TC2


If falloff is less valuable than optimal, then it should be compensated for in the base values of the turrets themselves, not in the modules that affect them. Doing it with modules creates a multiplicative effect that unduly favors ships with free low slots -- like basically every Minmatar shield tanker in the game.

Tracking enhancers definitely need to give falloff. I'm not disputing this for a second. But when CCP added a 30% falloff bonus to TEs, every autocannon ship that could fit two of them received a 64% falloff increase (in addition to the other buffs that projectiles received). That is absurd. For comparison, optimal would get a 30% increase from these modules.

For ships with three tracking enhancers, the problem is even worse. A Machariel receives a 92% falloff bonus from 3x TE2's. An optimal platform would get only a 41% increase.

They should have gone with CCP Nozh's plan and given a modest falloff increase to the turrets themselves. 10% would have been about right. Hybrids should have received a similar buff at this point, but we all know what came of that.

Amda Tori
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:32:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Amda Tori on 01/09/2011 14:42:05
Edited by: Amda Tori on 01/09/2011 14:33:58


The "optimal range" for the Machariel in missions it's 20km - 50km ( 15km - 50km vs battleships )
Above 50km your DPS will be gimped significantly. ( talking about geeks that want more falloff )
Below 20km you won't have enough tracking ( vs cruisers and frigates ).


I got 0.07234 rad/sec tracking on my Mach ( perfect skills and implants ) and it struggles below 20km if you are moving with a speed greater than 500m/s.
Don't think you can achieve a such tracking with an armor tanked Machariel.

You can pop approaching frigates between 25km and 60km, 2-3 shot cruisers in the same range.
Below 20km, you won't hit a fast approaching frigate. Under 10km you will struggle hitting orbiting cruisers.
Stationary frigates between 15km and 60km.

Under 10km you'll hit orbiting battleships for like 500 DPS ( depends on the rats; Angels will take the pounding quite good ).


In an armor tanked Machariel you will be having most of the fights under 30km, most of the time under 15km. Autocannons Machariel is not built for a such close range.


Actually you can achieve a greater tracking with an armor tanked Machariel :)
[Machariel, New Setup 1]
Imperial Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener
Imperial Navy Armor Thermic Hardener
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Gist X-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
[empty rig slot]





0.12091 rad/sec tracking, 50km falloff.
eheheheh.
It may work. :)

Puss in Boots
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:42:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade
Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 01/09/2011 05:18:47
Originally by: Puss in Boots
Yes. With maxed gunnery skills, I can hit all to 100km with standard phased plasma. It's most effective in AE4 bonus room. 900dps vs 845dps (no drones). The 23km of extra range comes in handy more than the eft warriored 55dps. Plus, I believe it helps against damps a bit which I run into.

Also, i'd not put shield rigs on a mach, the low sig is one of the advantages to using it. Shield rigs just ruins it.


Interesting about the locking range. I normally have an alt in system for leadership bonus so it's not worth it, but it is something to consider. If range ever becomes an issue I'll probably just fit an MWD for range dictation instead dropping a Gyro for a Signal Amplifier. X-Types don't get cap penalties and my fit can tank well enough on its own to lose the afterburner.

As far as shield rigs go, one rig increases your signature radius by an astounding 17m (340 to 357). I'll take that for an extra (pre-penalties) 30% EM resist.


Not sure if this is worth mentioning, but my EFTWarrioring shows 1003 DPS (no implants, 4 Gyro) vs. 958 (3 Gyro). 45 DPS difference, but even with those numbers I feel like 45 dps > 25 or so km target range.


I'd agree with you on paper, but you will only see 45dps hitting stations. Don't forget the benefit against damps if you mission in gallente space.

Puss in Boots
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:45:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Puss in Boots on 01/09/2011 14:45:23
I fail at reply

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:05:00 - [26]
 

Call me a wimp if you like, but I put a damage control on my PvE Faction BS. If for no other reason than PvE is pretty dull and so I tend to drink heavily and dual screen while I do it.

Those extra EHP have saved me from losing a faction BS more than once.

Navaris Dreadblade
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:05:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Puss in Boots
I'd agree with you on paper, but you will only see 45dps hitting stations. Don't forget the benefit against damps if you mission in gallente space.


I mission in Amarr space, the only reason I use a Machariel is for AE and WC. All the other missions I do in a Nightmare because of its superior damage projection against traditional Amarrian rats. This probably has a lot to do with why range is really meh for me on a Mach.

The difference is so small it's probably best to just call it personal preference.

@People talking about tracking: The Mach already has sufficient tracking to hit almost anything - if a frigate gets under your guns, just use a flight of light drones to clean it up instead of taking lower DPS by removing a Burst Aerator.

Muad 'dib
Caldari
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:10:00 - [28]
 

if you stand still in missions, you will need more stuff to make your ship work.

Flying right in the first place makes a heck of a difference.

Valor D'eglise
Gallente
Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:14:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Valor D''eglise on 01/09/2011 16:17:29

People who are talking about tracking in a mission Mach are just doing it wrong.
I have yet to see a situation where I really need tracking.
Long range enemies fly away from you, as you come closer. No transversal = no need for tracking.
Short range enemies are dead, before they are in their opt, which means they come at you in a straight line. No need for tracking.
Only exception: angels, loads of them. If you are swarmed by their BS, just approach one, it will fly away from you. Since you and the targeted rat are both flying the most agile BS there is, it just takes one or two weapon cycles till both of you are aligned. And most of the time these cycles hit anyway, because ACs with 3 TE already track very well (although I fit the TEs for falloff bonus).
Frigs are either instapopped (wait till they yellowbox you to have low transversal) at 20km+.

I also don't really get the XL shield booster fittings. I run a gist x-type large. It's so soft on cap, that I can turn it on at the beginning of a room and turn it off at the end. It tanks well enough with mission specific hardeners even for the hardest missions. My fitting has 13 minutes cap with this booster and tanks about 500dps, depending on damage type. More than enough, if you ask me. Hasn't failed me ever.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:56:00 - [30]
 

I run the 800 setup but i just use a gist b xlarge and 2 mission specific active hardeners with 2 utility slots. faction gyros. AB when warranted.

Drones as needed, which isn't much.

Since it has 2 utility slots in the middle it ****s serpentis extra hard with 2 f-90's.

No mission should be able to break your tank like that, except EM damage warrants a 4th shield slot.



Pages: [1] 2 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only