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VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:22:00 - [1]
 

This topic has been bothering me ever since I started playing EvE.

Do we agree that EvE is nothing more than spreadsheets with an animated screen saver in the background?

Do we agree that Eve PvP is about statistical advantages where a 5% damage mod could make the difference in battle?

So why is logistics and remote repping looked at any differently than say, an officer fit ship with a slaved pilot running links fighting a t1 ship fit with meta4 turrets?

There are easy counters to remote reps, but many don't want to think that far ahead so they rather whine about a tactic then overcome it. Reps are here to stay, they're going to be used in many if not most situations.

So, is it fair for the more unfortunate capsuleers who can't afford an RR alt to cry rivers of tears about the use of RR? Can you use that as a viable excuse to why you lost the war?

I'm fairly new to Eve, but I hear this all day nearly every day in game when I play and it's getting worse. Curious as to what you believe...

Uppsy Daisy
Caldari
Deteis Industries
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:33:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Uppsy Daisy on 31/08/2011 15:40:39
Remote repping is fine and adds tactics and richness to the game.
It has counters, most notably neuts and electronic warfare.
It is really not that time-consuming to train Logistics up.

The *only* problem that I can think of is that the only viable logistics ships are T2, as the T1 logistics ships are total pants. I guess that forms a slight barrier to entry for some people who don't want to spend 200 million a pop on T2 logistics cruisers.

However some of the aggression mechanics around remote repping are not great and herein the problem lies.

I could attempt to summarise it, but someone has already:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Remote_repping_and_aggression_(CSM)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Remote_repair_issues_(CSM)

Lastly remote repping GCC or outlaws results in faction standing losses, which are difficult (sometimes impossible) to repair. The existance of cap chains means that you only need one guardian to remote rep a GCC/outlaw and the whole chain suffers (this might only be a problem for Factional Warfare though I guess).

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:52:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Uppsy Daisy
Edited by: Uppsy Daisy on 31/08/2011 15:40:39
Remote repping is fine and adds tactics and richness to the game.
It has counters, most notably neuts and electronic warfare.
It is really not that time-consuming to train Logistics up.

The *only* problem that I can think of is that the only viable logistics ships are T2, as the T1 logistics ships are total pants. I guess that forms a slight barrier to entry for some people who don't want to spend 200 million a pop on T2 logistics cruisers.

However some of the aggression mechanics around remote repping are not great and herein the problem lies.

I could attempt to summarise it, but someone has already:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Remote_repping_and_aggression_(CSM)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Remote_repair_issues_(CSM)

Lastly remote repping GCC or outlaws results in faction standing losses, which are difficult (sometimes impossible) to repair. The existance of cap chains means that you only need one guardian to remote rep a GCC/outlaw and the whole chain suffers (this might only be a problem for Factional Warfare though I guess).


Thank you for the links, they open a whole new debate that of forcing aggression upon remote "anything"

Why only have the remote repper who is providing an advantage have a 1 minute aggression timer, what about the following remote services:

1 - Remote Sensor Boosting
2 - Remote ECCM Projectors
3 - Remote leadership gang links

Anybody seen involving themselves in a fight should/should not have 1 minute aggression timer?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:00:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/08/2011 16:01:21
I thought wtf are you talking about, barely anyone has issues with remote repping in normal fights. Only reason not all fleets bring a real counter for them is that it is usually far easier to brute force your way through reps than to actually deal with the reps.

But then it changed. Suddenly it should be normal to have an RR alt (welcome to alts online, where there are no consequences behind actions because for everything alts are used anyway). And suddenly it was about losing a war, while I thought it was about just random fights.

Then comes an obvious lie (that he is fairly new, if he is fairly new I am the FSM himself), so I decided to do a little check on his employment history. He is from february 2010, so I wouldnt call 1.5 years playing really a fairly new player. Besides that he switches a bit between the normal stationhugging corporations/alliances (orphanage, etc).

So what the OP is whining about has nothing to do with logistics, it is that he is afraid risk free station hugging with tons of even more risk free neutral support alts would get nerfed. And then he would need to spend more time on his carebear alt to compensate his losses.


Oh and btw:
Quote:
Do we agree that EvE is nothing more than spreadsheets with an animated screen saver in the background?

When you leave docking range you actually got stuff like manually piloting your ship...


And in response to that reply, 1 and 2 are already treated exactly like remote reps ingame for agression and flag purposes afaik, so why would anything need to change there? And for leadership it would open a ton of issues to do it, without adding anything since leadership can be run pretty much risk free anyway, regardless of transfer of agression.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:18:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/08/2011 16:01:21
I thought wtf are you talking about, barely anyone has issues with remote repping in normal fights. Only reason not all fleets bring a real counter for them is that it is usually far easier to brute force your way through reps than to actually deal with the reps.

But then it changed. Suddenly it should be normal to have an RR alt (welcome to alts online, where there are no consequences behind actions because for everything alts are used anyway). And suddenly it was about losing a war, while I thought it was about just random fights.

Then comes an obvious lie (that he is fairly new, if he is fairly new I am the FSM himself), so I decided to do a little check on his employment history. He is from february 2010, so I wouldnt call 1.5 years playing really a fairly new player. Besides that he switches a bit between the normal stationhugging corporations/alliances (orphanage, etc).

So what the OP is whining about has nothing to do with logistics, it is that he is afraid risk free station hugging with tons of even more risk free neutral support alts would get nerfed. And then he would need to spend more time on his carebear alt to compensate his losses.


Oh and btw:
Quote:
Do we agree that EvE is nothing more than spreadsheets with an animated screen saver in the background?

When you leave docking range you actually got stuff like manually piloting your ship...


And in response to that reply, 1 and 2 are already treated exactly like remote reps ingame for agression and flag purposes afaik, so why would anything need to change there? And for leadership it would open a ton of issues to do it, without adding anything since leadership can be run pretty much risk free anyway, regardless of transfer of agression.


wrong spot, this is not C & P, go there to post your Blue Waffle Drivel, plz

besides you having me all figured out, the only thing you mention worth addressing is your last comment, Remote Sensor and ECCM projection are currently treated the same as Logistical remote reps, so I was referring the links posted previously in support of treating RR differently with 1 minute aggression timers. So why not add aggression timers to the other Remote services available?

So if I am your station huger afraid of change, why do I bring the other remote services up?

And for the record I don't have any carebear alts, none.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:15:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/08/2011 17:16:01
Not completely surprised, you left corp so often to rejoin later.

But my point was mainly that it now gets treated exactly the same way, so if logistics agro mechanics are changed so will they, then they still get treated exactly the same way. Logistics has a much larger influence which is why the issue is focussed on that, but the basic reasons why it needs to change also are valid for stuff like remote sebos, so there is no reason why there would be an exception for those: they also should not be risk free station huggers.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:37:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/08/2011 17:16:01
Not completely surprised, you left corp so often to rejoin later.

But my point was mainly that it now gets treated exactly the same way, so if logistics agro mechanics are changed so will they, then they still get treated exactly the same way. Logistics has a much larger influence which is why the issue is focussed on that, but the basic reasons why it needs to change also are valid for stuff like remote sebos, so there is no reason why there would be an exception for those: they also should not be risk free station huggers.


Dude, I'm a self-admitted non recovering griefer. Wtf you think I change corps for, I have 9 of them to chose from.

And its nice you finally see wtf the convo is about. Welcome aboard.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:16:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 31/08/2011 20:27:33

Remote Repair is the only thing in game that hits for 100% chance ever cycle (not even the DPS of our weapons do that) and has no stacking penalty.



So in terms of how it works, it is not currently in balance with the rest of the game.
That and it should probably = aggression at an undock or stargate.


Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:45:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 31/08/2011 20:27:33

Remote Repair is the only thing in game that hits for 100% chance ever cycle (



Except, of course, target painters, sensor damps, warp disruptors, remote ECCM, remote sensor boosting, tracking disruptors, and tractor beams. Otherwise, sure, w/e.

Rath Kelbore
Kings of Kill
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:11:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: VegasMirage
Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/08/2011 16:01:21
I thought wtf are you talking about, barely anyone has issues with remote repping in normal fights. Only reason not all fleets bring a real counter for them is that it is usually far easier to brute force your way through reps than to actually deal with the reps.

But then it changed. Suddenly it should be normal to have an RR alt (welcome to alts online, where there are no consequences behind actions because for everything alts are used anyway). And suddenly it was about losing a war, while I thought it was about just random fights.

Then comes an obvious lie (that he is fairly new, if he is fairly new I am the FSM himself), so I decided to do a little check on his employment history. He is from february 2010, so I wouldnt call 1.5 years playing really a fairly new player. Besides that he switches a bit between the normal stationhugging corporations/alliances (orphanage, etc).

So what the OP is whining about has nothing to do with logistics, it is that he is afraid risk free station hugging with tons of even more risk free neutral support alts would get nerfed. And then he would need to spend more time on his carebear alt to compensate his losses.


Oh and btw:
Quote:
Do we agree that EvE is nothing more than spreadsheets with an animated screen saver in the background?

When you leave docking range you actually got stuff like manually piloting your ship...


And in response to that reply, 1 and 2 are already treated exactly like remote reps ingame for agression and flag purposes afaik, so why would anything need to change there? And for leadership it would open a ton of issues to do it, without adding anything since leadership can be run pretty much risk free anyway, regardless of transfer of agression.


wrong spot, this is not C & P, go there to post your Blue Waffle Drivel, plz

besides you having me all figured out, the only thing you mention worth addressing is your last comment, Remote Sensor and ECCM projection are currently treated the same as Logistical remote reps, so I was referring the links posted previously in support of treating RR differently with 1 minute aggression timers. So why not add aggression timers to the other Remote services available?

So if I am your station huger afraid of change, why do I bring the other remote services up?

And for the record I don't have any carebear alts, none.



Any assitance given to an aggroing/aggro'd party from another ship should not only transfer gcc's/aggression but should result in the aggression timer for docking/jumping gates IMO.

So yes, if your sensor boosting someone that has or is aggro'd, you should not be able to dock up or jump for a minute or whatever it is.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:58:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 31/08/2011 22:02:19
Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 31/08/2011 20:27:33

Remote Repair is the only thing in game that hits for 100% chance ever cycle (



Except, of course, target painters, sensor damps, warp disruptors, remote ECCM, remote sensor boosting, tracking disruptors, and tractor beams. Otherwise, sure, w/e.



* wipes the drool from Feligast's bottom lip.

It's ok sweetie, you simply missed a single word "and" is meant to connect two sentences. You will get it eventually!

Jitas Prostitute
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 31/08/2011 22:02:19
Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 31/08/2011 20:27:33

Remote Repair is the only thing in game that hits for 100% chance ever cycle (



Except, of course, target painters, sensor damps, warp disruptors, remote ECCM, remote sensor boosting, tracking disruptors, and tractor beams. Otherwise, sure, w/e.



* wipes the drool from Feligast's bottom lip.

It's ok sweetie, you simply missed a single word "and" is meant to connect two sentences. You will get it eventually!


you need too chill out! Dosent matter witch way you say it. Its the thought that counts

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:17:00 - [13]
 

Being completely honest here, 5% is less important than people think.

In pvp more fights are decided by a hesitation, a mistake or poor tactical descision then just the raw 5% stat.

Of course, the 5% helps but there are so many other factors to consider too. That is why PVP is so popular and offers great reward and re-playability in Eve. Each fight is a unique snowflake......except for AOE doomsday lololol

Larton Dretta
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:41:00 - [14]
 

It's a sandbox, not a PvP arena. Crying about being outnumbered is pointless. Also PvP in this game isn't about statistical advantage, it's too raw and unrefined, there are no engagement rules or anything else you could find in other MMOs. It's best to make the most out of your ship but it doesn't come into play often.

Other than that, if somebody's complaining about RR alts then tell them to man the **** up and leave high, because they're being pathetic.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.01 15:31:00 - [15]
 

Edit clarification: I'd like to clarify that the "aggression timer" I'm speaking of for other remote services would be similar to the one being proposed for neutral RR, in that it wont let you dock or jump gates for 1 minute.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:34:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 01/09/2011 21:54:42
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
It's ok sweetie, you simply missed a single word "and" is meant to connect two sentences. You will get it eventually!


Okie dokie, we'll do it the way you thought you wrote it then.

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Remote Repair is the only thing in game that hits for 100% chance ever cycle (not even the DPS of our weapons do that) and has no stacking penalty.


(bolded part mine.)

yeah, except, you know, warp disruptors. Oh, and passive targeters. And ship scanners. And mining lasers. Anything else?

Try not to make absolute statements when you know they're idiotic, mmkay? Thanks, bro, you know I got your back. o7o7o7o7m8m8m8m8m8m8

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.02 01:03:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Rath Kelbore
Originally by: VegasMirage
Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/08/2011 16:01:21
I thought wtf are you talking about, barely anyone has issues with remote repping in normal fights. Only reason not all fleets bring a real counter for them is that it is usually far easier to brute force your way through reps than to actually deal with the reps.

But then it changed. Suddenly it should be normal to have an RR alt (welcome to alts online, where there are no consequences behind actions because for everything alts are used anyway). And suddenly it was about losing a war, while I thought it was about just random fights.

Then comes an obvious lie (that he is fairly new, if he is fairly new I am the FSM himself), so I decided to do a little check on his employment history. He is from february 2010, so I wouldnt call 1.5 years playing really a fairly new player. Besides that he switches a bit between the normal stationhugging corporations/alliances (orphanage, etc).

So what the OP is whining about has nothing to do with logistics, it is that he is afraid risk free station hugging with tons of even more risk free neutral support alts would get nerfed. And then he would need to spend more time on his carebear alt to compensate his losses.


Oh and btw:
Quote:
Do we agree that EvE is nothing more than spreadsheets with an animated screen saver in the background?

When you leave docking range you actually got stuff like manually piloting your ship...


And in response to that reply, 1 and 2 are already treated exactly like remote reps ingame for agression and flag purposes afaik, so why would anything need to change there? And for leadership it would open a ton of issues to do it, without adding anything since leadership can be run pretty much risk free anyway, regardless of transfer of agression.


wrong spot, this is not C & P, go there to post your Blue Waffle Drivel, plz

besides you having me all figured out, the only thing you mention worth addressing is your last comment, Remote Sensor and ECCM projection are currently treated the same as Logistical remote reps, so I was referring the links posted previously in support of treating RR differently with 1 minute aggression timers. So why not add aggression timers to the other Remote services available?

So if I am your station huger afraid of change, why do I bring the other remote services up?

And for the record I don't have any carebear alts, none.



Any assitance given to an aggroing/aggro'd party from another ship should not only transfer gcc's/aggression but should result in the aggression timer for docking/jumping gates IMO.

So yes, if your sensor boosting someone that has or is aggro'd, you should not be able to dock up or jump for a minute or whatever it is.


The difference isn't really whether it hits for a 100% or not imo, I think it's whether the item can

provide an advantage to the user(s) while remaining "somewhat" untouchable, considering you can dock

instantly. So the items in question really are remote services mentioned early. Other items like TP's,

WD, Scrams etc., when used have docking timers, thus could be categorized differently.

I brought this topic up b/c I know CCP MAY change the mechanics on neutral remote repping, primarily due

to pressure from CSM reps and other leaders in-game. Personally, I think they should NOT change the

mechanics without revisiting all remote services.

I think they should leave it all alone as it is, fleets have ways of dealing with neutral RR's, 1 tackle

holds agression at a gate and jumps when the neutral jumps etc., Sensor damps and jammers on stations

etc.,

All the change will do is make the game EASIER for YOU stinking f%$*ing CAREBEAR douchebag c*%$

suckers!


Sorry that slipped out at the end.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.02 12:15:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/09/2011 12:16:47
Quote:
And its nice you finally see wtf the convo is about. Welcome aboard.

No I said that logistics and stuff like remote sebos should be treated the same: give agro. While you only complain that it should be risk free to use your neutral guardian alts on a station and be sure they can immediatly dock.


Quote:
All the change will do is make the game EASIER for YOU stinking f%$*ing CAREBEAR douchebag c*%$

suckers

You seem mad, you mad?

Anyway if by the change you mean agro for your station hugging logistics, then yes it will make the game easier for stinking ****ing carebear douchebags, at least if that is what you call those who do want to fight instead of dock up.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.02 15:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/09/2011 12:16:47
Quote:
And its nice you finally see wtf the convo is about. Welcome aboard.

No I said that logistics and stuff like remote sebos should be treated the same: give agro. While you only complain that it should be risk free to use your neutral guardian alts on a station and be sure they can immediatly dock.


Quote:
All the change will do is make the game EASIER for YOU stinking f%$*ing CAREBEAR douchebag c*%$

suckers

You seem mad, you mad?

Anyway if by the change you mean agro for your station hugging logistics, then yes it will make the game easier for stinking ****ing carebear douchebags, at least if that is what you call those who do want to fight instead of dock up.


TBH many of my fights are me and my logistic support against a fleet of 5 or 7 BS/BC's(many times they have logistics). So, the only hope for me is to undock, bait, rep, melt, redock... wait for smack to begin rinse and repeat.

If winning fights is all about who had the most pilots on grid, then hi sec becomes like a null sec gate blob story... *yawn.

By allowing me (mr hand solo) an extra few minutes by diverting 4 to 5,000 DPS and docking up the logi, CCP has made it possible for everyone to have fun - cause if I couldn't do that then I'd proly be in null sec fighting blobs or perma docked.

Grifers need love and have rights too, you know!

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.02 16:09:00 - [20]
 

lol lookit this dude trying to justify risk-free pvp

Xiozor
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2011.09.02 23:08:00 - [21]
 

There's an ultimate counter to neutral RR logistics and I can't believe none of the whiners have thought of it.

Leave high-sec.

Addrake
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.05 07:07:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Xiozor
There's an ultimate counter to neutral RR logistics and I can't believe none of the whiners have thought of it.

Leave high-sec.


Life does get significantly easier when you can just kill everyone.

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.09.05 10:04:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: VegasMirage
This topic has been bothering me ever since I started playing EvE.

Do we agree that EvE is nothing more than spreadsheets with an animated screen saver in the background?

Do we agree that Eve PvP is about statistical advantages where a 5% damage mod could make the difference in battle?

So why is logistics and remote repping looked at any differently than say, an officer fit ship with a slaved pilot running links fighting a t1 ship fit with meta4 turrets?

There are easy counters to remote reps, but many don't want to think that far ahead so they rather whine about a tactic then overcome it. Reps are here to stay, they're going to be used in many if not most situations.

So, is it fair for the more unfortunate capsuleers who can't afford an RR alt to cry rivers of tears about the use of RR? Can you use that as a viable excuse to why you lost the war?

I'm fairly new to Eve, but I hear this all day nearly every day in game when I play and it's getting worse. Curious as to what you believe...



What a lot of nonsense this post contains. There is nothing wrong with Logistic ships. Adoption is a balance with other ships for battle. They are not an ‘I win’ class of ship. The biggest issue with RR is neutrals which is really what I think your trying to justify as I read on

If you cannot formulate a fleet set-up within your corp/alliance that utilises DPS and support, then you should not be able to dec others because you have this neutral security blanket. HS wars are pathetic enough as it is, although I suppose the children must have somewhere to play

The proposed changes are an improvement, but I still think the CSM are being too soft. Any form of remote assistance by a neutral entity to a corp/alliance member at war should result in swift Concord justice. Get them off the field so the those that make the effort are rewarded

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.06 16:01:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Potato IQ
What a lot of nonsense this post contains.


this ^^

leave neutral RR as it is, keep your hands off my stack, simple enuff.

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.09.06 22:43:00 - [25]
 

Meh ships, and mods are fine... Ok not all E war is fine, but eh.

The problem is the neutral part. I dont care if someone else or a group bring it... I just want a fair shot at taking it down. And lets be real here the counters to neutral RR are highly highly subjective/luck. As most guys are station/gate hugging. Bit of a reason why high sec war guys dont follow said corps to low sec.

But you got to figure people dont much care for exploits, and therefore the people that practice them. So get over people attempting to curb your fun. People have had to live/deal with cheap **** tactics so you gotta live with the changes too.

And if you really get mad at carebears that dont come out to fight why stay in high sec?

Sutskop
PILSGESCHWADER
Monkey Circus
Posted - 2011.09.07 12:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: VegasMirage


All the change will do is make the game EASIER for YOU stinking f%$*ing CAREBEAR douchebag c*%$

suckers!



I'd imagine it is easy enough already for people who use risk free neutral remote reps, especially in hisec, don't you think?
I vote for the change because it is virtually risk free (if you are not silly dumb).

Plus 1
Posted - 2011.09.08 01:37:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Xiozor
There's an ultimate counter to neutral RR logistics and I can't believe none of the whiners have thought of it.

Leave high-sec.

Leaving high sec does not add an aggression timer that prevents easy re-docking for the logistics ship, however.


 

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