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Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:06:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Umad Bro Questionmark on 01/09/2011 02:23:56
Edited by: Umad Bro Questionmark on 01/09/2011 01:06:01
Originally by: Si Omega
^^^ Hey fella. Even real people stop ratting when neuts etc. are in system. Your dastardly plan will prove nothing.


For how long u think they can afford not to rat? The last system I visited had 13 people when I jumped in in a mining op. They all chickened at pos like you can see here:


http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8292/producemuch.png

When I came back from work today (after AFK cloaking all night, camping the restart, then AFK cloaking again while I was at work) there were 2 people in local and shortly I was alone. So you draw the conclusions.


Zilero
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:15:00 - [62]
 

Seriously, getting 10-15000 NPC kills is possible if you have an alliance with a wide TZ coverage and a lot of active carebears.

If the 10-15000 kills is on a single account or two, yes - then you can start talking about bots, but until you prove that, the numbers you see can be from 10-20 people ratting over a 24h period.

If you don't believe me, look at differences between npc kills on weekdays and during weekends, trust me, for almost all systems, there is an increase in NPC kills during the weekend, so yeah let's all report this infestation of weekend bots!

Also, I recently saw a takeover of a certain pocket in a certain region (*cough* Delve *cough*) - resulting in the best carebear systems going from 0 npc kills a day to 8-9000 in 24h. That was with SOV warfare still going on and not all people having moved yet.

So, prove that 10k kills or whatever is by one person, every single day and yes, I will believe its a bot. If you can't prove that, go away with your numbers game.

-zil

Note: I do know for a fact that there are bots out there, I also know they are *NOT* in the 10k+ systems, but hiding in systems with far fewer kills.... the whole dotlan npc kill number witchhunt is a giant waste of time doing nothing but ensuring the safety of the botters who are laughing everytime someone points to a 10k+ npc kill system and yells: BOTS!

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:17:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Si Omega on 01/09/2011 01:18:04
Edited by: Si Omega on 01/09/2011 01:17:41


As a former hard core ratter in null, when a neut was in system I safed up and used one my other alts and did something else. If said neut stayed for too long, I'd log.

Nor is there any "afford" here, you don't have to rat to survive, it's not RL.

Cloakies (AFK or otherwise) will stop ALL commonsense players (in fact it's usually corp policy) simply because black-ops drops are cloak warped in, can't be scanned and unless your finger is sitting over 'warp', it's too damn easy to lose your ratter.

Learn the ACTUAL play style of REAL ratters before assuming they MUST BE BOTS.

imho, a "bot infected" system would need to be consistent kill rates over many hours and over many days.

And just so you know, in my experience, smart botters change systems, change accounts and change timing. That's WHY they are soooooo hard to detect.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:18:00 - [64]
 

Quote:
Some yahoo in nullsec finds a botter.
Yahoo shuts his mouth because null is "don't ask, don't tell". Or he's stupid enough to actually report it.
Surprisingly, he finds himself booted out of the corp because the alliance threatens to boot the corp.


Are you talking about the same alliances begging with pathetic posts to nerf high sec minerals and send ice to null where they already don't mine the one they have?

If there is any improvement that should be done in null sec is the total annihilation of bots and the renters behind them.

More place for new players, better income for miners (hell even I would mine and find it fun) and most important: better community

SilentSkills
Gallente
Tax Evaders Inc.
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:21:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
Originally by: Khavor
Over 14000 NPC kills?!

ITS OVER 9000!


this

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:23:00 - [66]
 

Oh darn. You have me confused as well. You said there were 1500 kills, must be bots.

Your last post showed a POS with a mining team.

Are the Macks being used to bot? And they are chicken? Seriously. When was the last time you flew a a billion plus of mining vessels and stayed on grid while a neut was in system???

[buzzer sound]. try again.

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:37:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Umad Bro Questionmark on 01/09/2011 01:38:16
Originally by: Si Omega

As a former hard core ratter in null, when a neut was in system I safed up and used one my other alts and did something else. If said neut stayed for too long, I'd log.




I'll rephrase for u:
As a former carebear mindless drone, when a neut was in system i hid under a rock and used my other alts to do other safe carebear stuff. If the neut stayed for too long, i'd cry myself to sleep cuz I could not farm that night.


Originally by: Si Omega
Nor is there any "afford" here, you don't have to rat to survive, it's not RL.


Umm, yes you do. Some people pay rent. And that rent is ****ing big. Get your facts straight.

Originally by: Si Omega

Learn the ACTUAL play style of REAL ratters before assuming they MUST BE BOTS.


I did not assume all ratters are bots, you made that assumption for me. I merely posted in this thread. Did I say ANYTHING about BOTS? No.



Trolling removed. Zymurgist


Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:04:00 - [68]
 

Me and 2 other guys get over 12000 NPC kills in 24hrs regularly, no bots there.

And **** neuts, with some seasoned PVP heads online, excellent intel and a few other things, we keep ratting if a neut comes in, stays or attacks someone. If they are attacked we just kill the neut.

AFK cloakers are dumb.

People who think a power is over 9000 so therefore it must be a bot is dumb too.

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:24:00 - [69]
 

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Insmother#npc

watch it drop in 1zf for the next hours. Srsly, i'll even resize my image.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:36:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
[you have no idea... one of the corps we were in, dude had the BRILLIANT idea of placing a POS in a low sec pocket surrounded by high sec on the theory that "Its surrounded by high sec. You cant get a capitol ship in there cause they cant go through High sec."

S I L E N T. fixed that stupid assumption.
And the corp.
And the alliance we'd joined like 5 days earlier


... had the guy never heard of a thing called a "cynosural field"? :cripes:


Yeah it was THAT BAD
Half the Corp warned the CEO for days. He chose to ignore us all.
He put up the POS, an HOUR LATER
an HOUR
A Proteus came in system, flew by it, stayed in system a bit then flew off.
minutes later four Relevations were on scene with at lest a hundred support ships blasting the crap out of the POS.
I flew in an watched it for a while, got bored, flew off. The Alliance we were with heard the guy on comms qqing about the POS and essentially went "what do you want us to do? We're an industrial alliance"
The next day S I L E N T. declared war (well 48hrs I think)
The CEO of our corp quit as soon as the war was declared, leaving the rest of the corp's leadership to clean up his mess. S I L E N T. then had endless fun massacring all the members of the alliance and last Id heard they were disbanded.

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:35:00 - [71]
 

Quote:
watch it drop in 1zf for the next hours.


Still proves nothing. Most null ratters do NOT need to pay rent and thus they simply log and do other stuff. They don't cry, they simply log.

because... you can't scan down or stop an AFK cloaky. In fact, you're prolly stopping genuine people players who actually MAY have rent to pay.

And, any lazy AFK cloaky that figures he's leetpvp and is contributing to stopping bots and making Eve better is not much more than a......


Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:50:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Umad Bro Questionmark on 01/09/2011 03:51:11

And fyi, the regions discussed are only regions that have to pay rent. You know **** about this game and the mechanics around it. Ty.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:11:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Vincent Athena
I guess Im missing something. I looked at the data for one system with 15000 npc kills and noticed that they happened in waves, not uniformly, and there are many jumps in and out of that system. To me it just looks like a bunch of players flying in, killing evil NPCs, then going home. I know if I could just fly from anomaly to anomaly I could easily get over 100 NPCs per hour. 30 pilots like me, each in there killing for a few hours a day, would rack up the observed numbers. A low truesec system with improvements attracts people from all over.

CCP has said that many players play like bots, doing one activity for hours. Without better tools we cannot tell such players apart from bots. But CCP can look at chat traffic, timing between mouse clicks, state machine type responses, and so on. If they have not banned people in that system, there is a good chance its because they are actual players.

And it could also be because the bot writers have made better bots, and CCP has yet to ramp up their detection methods.


It's true that most modern bot programs do not rat nonstop, and most are not operated 24 hours a day on the same character, at least as far as I understand it. It is also true that efficient ratting is probably indistinguishable from botting at first glance, since both involve performing tedious and repetitive activities for extended periods of time. In the long run CCP will probably have to revamp PVE mechanics such as anomalies and belt ratting in order to properly deal with bots, perhaps by creating group-oriented content similar to incursions. Then again, that just means we'll eventually see bots capable of running incursions together; even if a fleet of bots requires more than the optimum number of fleet members to complete such sites, running them for hours would still yield decent profits no doubt.

However, in the case of N-I024, for example, the NPC kills per hour does suggest the possibility of bots active in that system.

The NPC kills per hour in that system were both high and fairly stable for approximately 15 hours between downtimes, sharply rising right after downtime and sharply falling a few hours before downtime. In systems inhabited by real players, on the other hand, NPC kills tend to oscillate at fairly low levels for most of the day, rise sharply around the prime time of the inhabitant alliance/corporation, then fall again. This is because real players tend to log in, rat for a few hours, then log back off, and since most alliances and corporations operate in the same timezone, activity tends to spike in that timezone. Consider the NPC kills in Q-VTWJ, for example. This does not prove that there are botters in that system, since it's possible that the system is used by multiple corporations active in multiple timezones.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:20:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 01/09/2011 04:21:50
Originally by: BearJews
Just a noob question here:

Doesn't heavy botting fund alliances so they can continuously build capital ships at a lower cost than having real players, mine/loot/salvage and so on?
Srs answer?

Most alliances are funded by taxes and sometimes moon income. Heavy botting is usually done in renter alliances by individuals who want to make a cheap buck. The cheater uses the income for whatever he likes (usually RMT) and pays his rent to his renter alliance exec (steep for honest renters, but easy for him), who then pays a lump sum to the holding alliance. Renting alliances aren't very thorough about policing their own or being competent in general; if they were they wouldn't be renters.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:24:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Umad Bro Questionmark
For how long u think they can afford not to rat? The last system I visited had 13 people when I jumped in in a mining op. They all chickened at pos like you can see here:


http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8292/producemuch.png

When I came back from work today (after AFK cloaking all night, camping the restart, then AFK cloaking again while I was at work) there were 2 people in local and shortly I was alone. So you draw the conclusions.




Looks like a multiboxer tbh, not necessarily a bot.

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:26:00 - [76]
 

Quote:
I'm not gonna quote all the 4 times you said moron


Errr... 4.

Thornat
Posted - 2011.09.01 06:37:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Takamori Maruyama
Really bad for the economy this kinda of stuff, need CCP attention , hope they do something.
Or even their monocles or whatsoever expensive clothing will get undervalued since cash will flow and will be easier to acquire plex and aurum.

Think about it.


The sky, it's falling? Good lord something must be done! Should I run around in circles screaming?


To be fair, botting does have negative effects on the EVE economy by driving down the price of minerals to the point where mining becomes unprofitable relative to other activities for large numbers of players. Dr.E, CCP's economist, has opined that banning all bot accounts would crash the EVE economy, but I doubt very much that this is would happen unless virtually all active miners are actually bots. Even then, a good number of prospective miners are currently priced out of the profession, and more players will become miners if the activity becomes more profitable. If anything, banning bot accounts would stimulate the EVE economy.


I have said this many times and I will say it again. If getting rid of botters crashes the economy than so be it, let it crash. I would rather see an economic depression from which active players can dig their way out rather than having the terms of the economy being dictated by people who aren't even interested in the game at all, just the RL cash it produces. To me botting is the absolute worse aspect of gaming in Eve, it just out right breaks the game.

kari bourza
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.09.01 11:18:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: kari bourza on 01/09/2011 11:20:19
RMT need to be put in perspective vis a vis CCP, iceland is a very small country, with a wooping population of 300000, CCP is a big deal in iceland, they must account for a big chunk Iceland GDP, Iceland had a credit crisis not long ago, Russia bailed them out, now im not paranoiac or anything but im just trying to find rational answers as to why CCP allow this to stand

now again this is a country of 300000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland, owing a lot money to the big bear mother Russia, i can only imagine all the political pressure that CCP is under, to not anger Russia in any form or shape

Wolfpann
Posted - 2011.09.01 11:28:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: kari bourza
Edited by: kari bourza on 01/09/2011 11:20:19
RMT need to be put in perspective vis a vis CCP, iceland is a very small country, with a wooping population of 300000, CCP is a big deal in iceland, they must account for a big chunk Iceland GDP, Iceland had a credit crisis not long ago, Russia bailed them out, now im not paranoiac or anything but im just trying to find rational answers as to why CCP allow this to stand

now again this is a country of 300000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland, owing a lot money to the big bear mother Russia, i can only imagine all the political pressure that CCP is under, to not anger Russia in any form or shape


I want to know where you find your facts, you are a obviously a supreme researcher.

kari bourza
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:20:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: kari bourza on 01/09/2011 12:20:52
Originally by: Wolfpann
Originally by: kari bourza
Edited by: kari bourza on 01/09/2011 11:20:19
RMT need to be put in perspective vis a vis CCP, iceland is a very small country, with a wooping population of 300000, CCP is a big deal in iceland, they must account for a big chunk Iceland GDP, Iceland had a credit crisis not long ago, Russia bailed them out, now im not paranoiac or anything but im just trying to find rational answers as to why CCP allow this to stand

now again this is a country of 300000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland, owing a lot money to the big bear mother Russia, i can only imagine all the political pressure that CCP is under, to not anger Russia in any form or shape


I want to know where you find your facts, you are a obviously a supreme researcher.



be very careful with your sarcastic tone son, it may bite you in the ass some day, but since you seem to be helpless im going to direct you to some sources about every fact i stated

- Russia bailing out Iceland : http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1849705,00.html
- Iceland being a small country : http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3396.htm

the fact that an Icelandic company may suffer from a form or another of pressure from Russia, under these circumstances is just using your brain and drawing simple conclusions, im not saying its 100 % true but in my mind its a god damn good theory

N1gella Laws0n
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:31:00 - [81]
 

Hey CCP, how about you turn away some customers?
No.
Oh, oh kay... Sad

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:38:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: kari bourza
Edited by: kari bourza on 01/09/2011 11:20:19
RMT need to be put in perspective vis a vis CCP, iceland is a very small country, with a wooping population of 300000, CCP is a big deal in iceland, they must account for a big chunk Iceland GDP, Iceland had a credit crisis not long ago, Russia bailed them out, now im not paranoiac or anything but im just trying to find rational answers as to why CCP allow this to stand

now again this is a country of 300000 people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland, owing a lot money to the big bear mother Russia, i can only imagine all the political pressure that CCP is under, to not anger Russia in any form or shape


CCP is about 0.1% of Iceland's GPD IIRC. They're not that big a deal, economically speaking. However they do bring in a lot of foreign exchange and virtually all their business is export, so they're disproportionately valuable to Iceland. But still not a very big deal.

Wolfpann
Posted - 2011.09.01 12:47:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: kari bourza
be very careful with your sarcastic tone son, it may bite you in the ass some day, but since you seem to be helpless im going to direct you to some sources about every fact i stated

- Russia bailing out Iceland : http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1849705,00.html
- Iceland being a small country : http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3396.htm



Maybe you didn't get all the facts by reading a 2008 article, in fact IMF bailed Iceland out with a loan of $4.6b

Read all about it

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:14:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Wolfpann
Originally by: kari bourza
be very careful with your sarcastic tone son, it may bite you in the ass some day, but since you seem to be helpless im going to direct you to some sources about every fact i stated

- Russia bailing out Iceland : http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1849705,00.html
- Iceland being a small country : http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3396.htm



Maybe you didn't get all the facts by reading a 2008 article, in fact IMF bailed Iceland out with a loan of $4.6b

Read all about it


Iceland's currency is greatly devalued presently. Before their economic crash it had a lot more value. Then the Icelanders went crazy insane buying stuff from loans and leveraging their currency exchange rates at the time. Then things went very bad. Their currency became worthless in exchange. So, their debt per person is about 160,000 per Icelandic resident. And while the IMF did intercede it does not mean Iceland is free of their debt obligations. It merely means a portion of debt held by banks is now held by the IMF decreasing Iceland's interest burdens not the debt itself.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:18:00 - [85]
 

as russian i request golden Thanatos IMMEDIATELY!

Elsewere......
Twisted Evil

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:33:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 16:36:29
Originally by: Thornat

I have said this many times and I will say it again. If getting rid of botters crashes the economy than so be it, let it crash. I would rather see an economic depression from which active players can dig their way out rather than having the terms of the economy being dictated by people who aren't even interested in the game at all, just the RL cash it produces. To me botting is the absolute worse aspect of gaming in Eve, it just out right breaks the game.


What elements of the EVE economy have you seen that are dictated solely by RMT/botting, and what evidence do you have that the average player has seen a direct and negative impact on their playing experience based solely on botting or RMT?

While I agree that there are likely various elements of the market that are cornered by RMT/botting, have you seen any skyrocketing or solicitous price gouging that would not be done by player traders as it is with or without botting?

Botting is a mudflation issue, but botters can only pull as much ISK out of a belt as that belt allows, so if anything, it is a scalar problem of, CCP never intending for belts in 0.0 to be farmed 23/7.

The real problem is an issue of threshold, has botting reached a critical threshold where the entire system itself is unable to function as intended? Your answer is no.

Have I seen other games where the answer is yes? Of course, but that is not EVE, not yet. So please, claiming that we should just pull the plug and hope for the best, is like pulling a beam off a person in a building that has fallen down, claiming that their guts are going to spill out either way, so might as well just get it over with, ya know, as opposed to waiting on the ambulance with the medical professionals who can actually save the person's life.

EVE botting and RMT are a game of balance between too much and too little, CCP may not do a good job one quarter, and they may do a great job another, but the claim that you can just willingly smite every single botter in existence in the first place, and THEN not see at least some level of fallout that could not be prevented by BETTER preparation and planning is frivolous.

There is a reason botting is now so predominant, it likely has little to do with greed alone, as if it did, why would those interested in botting only just now capitalize on it in the past year or two, as opposed to ya know, the six years that came before it? Pulling the plug only exacerbates the reason the problem has gotten so out of hand as it is, first the problem needs to be fixed (high maintenance costs of sov after Dominion coupled with the arm's race of supercapital warfare) then the botting can be hit with the biggest hammer you can carry, k?

Watch CCP, watch them do it in that order, first they release Winter Expansion with tweaks to sov, nerf to supercaps, new supercap killing ship tweaks (to Black Ops), THEN there will be the most massive bot purge we have seen up to that date.

Remember how it already works, one day there are a thousands hundreds of bots in a particular system, and the next day someone warps to the ice belt, they are all gone. That is how we KNOW it works, however, the fact that it hasn't happened yet decries your logic that we should just 'get it over with', obviously CCP is waiting for some reason, and it is either that they have not reached a satisfactory level of 'pending bans' OR they are waiting for the right moment.

It is either one or the other, because we already know CCP has a precedent of the doing the former, but I'm pretty sure the latter is a factor this time since the rise of botting in the past year or two is a far cry different than what it was previously, so there are likely additional factors involved besides just pending bans waiting for the gavel to swing on them en masse.

Sgt Lurch
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:36:00 - [87]
 

I like the idea of Russian oligarchs using international political pressure to a gaming company to allow their basement botting activities to go un-admonished. GG.

kari bourza
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:53:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: kari bourza on 01/09/2011 13:53:12
Originally by: Sgt Lurch
I like the idea of Russian oligarchs using international political pressure to a gaming company to allow their basement botting activities to go un-admonished. GG.


I dont think its that simple, but any legal action CCP could take against the RMT empire that is based in Russia would be strongly discouraged, because of political ties and out of fear of being interpreted as a hostile move toward Russia economy or whatever, its a game of influence, and right now Iceland is like a fly trying to orbit a sun, wont work and will end tragically for the fly, some may say its over stretched, they are maybe right ...

Eight Sinn
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:31:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 15:58:45
1. If the bot reporting system relies on us to help you by reporting bots, how does it work when the bots are in a system filled with people who condone their use?



Most people don't really care one way or the other about bots. The ones that do either take an active stance (by killing them in game), or a passive one (by posting on the forums).


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