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Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:49:00 - [31]
 

I guess Im missing something. I looked at the data for one system with 15000 npc kills and noticed that they happened in waves, not uniformly, and there are many jumps in and out of that system. To me it just looks like a bunch of players flying in, killing evil NPCs, then going home. I know if I could just fly from anomaly to anomaly I could easily get over 100 NPCs per hour. 30 pilots like me, each in there killing for a few hours a day, would rack up the observed numbers. A low truesec system with improvements attracts people from all over.

CCP has said that many players play like bots, doing one activity for hours. Without better tools we cannot tell such players apart from bots. But CCP can look at chat traffic, timing between mouse clicks, state machine type responses, and so on. If they have not banned people in that system, there is a good chance its because they are actual players.

And it could also be because the bot writers have made better bots, and CCP has yet to ramp up their detection methods.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:53:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 18:21:06
Originally by: Vincent Athena
I guess Im missing something. I looked at the data for one system with 15000 npc kills and noticed that they happened in waves, not uniformly, and there are many jumps in and out of that system. To me it just looks like a bunch of players flying in, killing evil NPCs, then going home. I know if I could just fly from anomaly to anomaly I could easily get over 100 NPCs per hour. 30 pilots like me, each in there killing for a few hours a day, would rack up the observed numbers. A low truesec system with improvements attracts people from all over.

CCP has said that many players play like bots, doing one activity for hours. Without better tools we cannot tell such players apart from bots. But CCP can look at chat traffic, timing between mouse clicks, state machine type responses, and so on. If they have not banned people in that system, there is a good chance its because they are actual players.

And it could also be because the bot writers have made better bots, and CCP has yet to ramp up their detection methods.



You sir, are my hero of the day. +1 for stating it exactly like it is.


When I rat, which is rarely anymore, I do so for 10-12 hours straight, I turn on some music, and I literally warp from belt to belt until I cannot stand it any longer. Then I go for days without ratting. This way I make a load of money all at once and get it out of the way. Does not make me bot, but it certainly makes look a little strange when I warp from belt to belt for twelve hours straight with only a lunch or dinner break in between.

VaMei
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:29:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Alice Katsuko
To be fair, botting does have negative effects on the EVE economy by driving down the price of minerals to the point where mining becomes unprofitable relative to other activities for large numbers of players. Dr.E, CCP's economist, has opined that banning all bot accounts would crash the EVE economy, but I doubt very much that this is would happen unless virtually all active miners are actually bots. Even then, a good number of prospective miners are currently priced out of the profession, and more players will become miners if the activity becomes more profitable. If anything, banning bot accounts would stimulate the EVE economy.


Agreed on all points. The Eve economy worked when a Dominix cost 80Misk before fitting, and people still used them for PvP.
Banning the bots won’t crash the economy; it'll make the economy matter again.

If Dr.E is afraid that banning all bots would crash the market, all CCP needs to do is bring back NPC traders at the major trade hubs to provide a hard price cap and floor on the value of core materials, and give the price controls to Dr.E. If the NPCs can only be found at major hubs and use a wide trade spread (i.e. Jita Trit [email protected] [email protected]), they won't come into play unless the market does crash. Even then, all they'll do is keep the game going until the players can react to the change and pick up the slack.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:43:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 18:44:02
Originally by: VaMei
Originally by: Alice Katsuko
To be fair, botting does have negative effects on the EVE economy by driving down the price of minerals to the point where mining becomes unprofitable relative to other activities for large numbers of players. Dr.E, CCP's economist, has opined that banning all bot accounts would crash the EVE economy, but I doubt very much that this is would happen unless virtually all active miners are actually bots. Even then, a good number of prospective miners are currently priced out of the profession, and more players will become miners if the activity becomes more profitable. If anything, banning bot accounts would stimulate the EVE economy.


Agreed on all points. The Eve economy worked when a Dominix cost 80Misk before fitting, and people still used them for PvP.
Banning the bots won’t crash the economy; it'll make the economy matter again.

If Dr.E is afraid that banning all bots would crash the market, all CCP needs to do is bring back NPC traders at the major trade hubs to provide a hard price cap and floor on the value of core materials, and give the price controls to Dr.E. If the NPCs can only be found at major hubs and use a wide trade spread (i.e. Jita Trit [email protected] [email protected]), they won't come into play unless the market does crash. Even then, all they'll do is keep the game going until the players can react to the change and pick up the slack.



I would not think it is necessarily that the lack of bots themselves would crash the market, but that you would be fighting the flames and not the source.

You have to ask yourself, WHY are the bots suddenly so popular than they were before, and if in removing them, you are doing damage in other ways.

Personally IF the botting is nearly as rampant as people claim out in various areas of 0.0, I would think most of it is because large coalitions do not have the actual manpower to get people to pay for the upkeep on all those systems AND wage near constant campaigns to keep everyone entertained AND keep up with the guy next door who IS resorting to botting so he can maximize his coalition's military wing.

Read somewhere, wasn't there an interview where an alliance leader somewhere was quoted as saying that of course his alliance bots, how else would they keep up with the opposition if his alliance did not bot as well?

Again I do not think it is really the bots themselves, it is the reason they suddenly became so predominant that needs to be addressed before the bots themselves are wiped off the map entirely, maybe this is why CCP has seemed to cut back a bit on the bot wars for now while they sort out all these new null changes they are promising.

I would almost wager that you will see a lot of null mechanics tweaked with the Winter Expansion, and a few months later a huge wave of botting bans and removals, in that order.

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:53:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Soma Khan on 31/08/2011 18:54:26
Originally by: Kharvor

2. Why is it that an normal player can see statistics that are clearly insanely above the norm for EULA play, yet somehow CCP can't see that something fishy is going on out there?

do provide clear reasoning for why those numbers are "clearly insanely above the norm for EULA play". include number of npc's in drone anoms, timing for spawning and completing, fit and dps for the ship used to run these, number of pilots, etc. without this you are looking like a brain damaged child throwing a tantrum

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:55:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Mendolus

I don't disagree with you that botting is a problem.
I disagree with all the exclamations and OHMGEE GUYZ! threads about it when there is already a threadnought for it all to go into.
I'm tired of it, what the ___ is the point of this ^ ? as a poster above just said.


Originally by: Sullen Skoung

Yes but Mendolus is the Sgt Shultz of EVE
I SEE NOTHINK


Yes Im quoting myself
Yes Im old to remember the show

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:12:00 - [37]
 

It's actually pretty cool to see some of the numbers drop.

My corp has worked hard in the Spire to kill off botters using login traps and forever camping. Eventually the entities who bot start paying off my pilots to avoid the systems.

Not but a few months ago, the number of NPC's killed in a heavy bot filled system would range from 20-30k NPC kills a day and there would be multiple in a given drone region. We used to see entire constellations red on the map of NPC per 24 with 15k+ kills in each system.

Considering you gotta pick 3 systems across 3 different regions means CCP is doing something. If not CCP, players have taken matters into their own hands.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:16:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Eventually the entities who bot start paying off my pilots to avoid the systems.



uh... anyone else see that?

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:18:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Zagdul
Eventually the entities who bot start paying off my pilots to avoid the systems.



uh... anyone else see that?


Ya, what about it? Wouldn't you take 100m ISK to just leave a system?

Oh, and bots don't convo people :)

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:27:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Zagdul
Eventually the entities who bot start paying off my pilots to avoid the systems.



uh... anyone else see that?


Ya, what about it? Wouldn't you take 100m ISK to just leave a system?

Oh, and bots don't convo people :)


If the reason I was there was to kill the bots; no not really. Not everyone is as corrupt as the Goons

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:29:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 19:32:35
Originally by: Vincent Athena
I guess Im missing something. I looked at the data for one system with 15000 npc kills and noticed that they happened in waves, not uniformly, and there are many jumps in and out of that system. To me it just looks like a bunch of players flying in, killing evil NPCs, then going home. I know if I could just fly from anomaly to anomaly I could easily get over 100 NPCs per hour. 30 pilots like me, each in there killing for a few hours a day, would rack up the observed numbers. A low truesec system with improvements attracts people from all over.

CCP has said that many players play like bots, doing one activity for hours. Without better tools we cannot tell such players apart from bots. But CCP can look at chat traffic, timing between mouse clicks, state machine type responses, and so on. If they have not banned people in that system, there is a good chance its because they are actual players.

And it could also be because the bot writers have made better bots, and CCP has yet to ramp up their detection methods.



Good points.

There could also be another explanation for the dips in the hourly number patterns: you have script groups operating in the system at different times as their owners log on and off. The numbers you see jumping in and out of system could reflect the manual character accounts that are jumping in, scooping loot, salvaging wrecks and then moving on. It's been several hours since the original post that I linke. I'd like to see if the numbers in that one system in Outer Passage remain at roughly the same level - that would be a whole lot of concerted "bot like player activity" for one solitary system in an entire region.

I'm not dismissing your points, I'm just making parallels between what we're seeing in those systems and an orchestrated automated farming effort.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:31:00 - [42]
 

ITT: accepting ISK to allow ACTIVE PLAYERS to stop hunting your covops = corruption.

VaMei
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:35:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: VaMei on 31/08/2011 19:37:04
Originally by: Mendolus
I would not think it is necessarily that the lack of bots themselves would crash the market, but that you would be fighting the flames and not the source.

You have to ask yourself, WHY are the bots suddenly so popular than they were before, and if in removing them, you are doing damage in other ways.


Its all about keeping up with the Jonses.

Let's say that you're a member of alliance 'A'. Your alliance is full of nothing but hard working and industrious players that grind away for several hours per day, before they eagerly X in for the daily alliance roam; where they exhibit a high level of selfless determination, skill, and teamwork. A fictional alliance, but let's pretend.

Now let's pretend that alliance 'B' chooses to fund its operations by renting space to pet corps. What those pet corps do with their space was never B's concern as long as they pay the bills, but man they sure do put in some hours. B's members do not need to spend time grinding in order to pay for ships and space, since the pets do that for them. They are free to spend all of their game time expanding their empire, adding more systems that can be rented out to even more pets, funding an even larger war machine.

When if comes to recruiting, where do you think skilled hardcore PvPers will choose to go: Alliance A where they have to grind for their ships and pay taxes to fund the alliance or B where all they need to do is fight well?
When the time comes for A and B to fight, who do you think will win?
What do you think other alliances will choose to do when they see the results of the war between play style A and play style B?

Bottom line is that B's form of game play wins fights and expands space better than A's; not to mention that B's play style also covers for RMT operations rather nicely. Once the bar has been raised to that level, alliances that refuse to be funded by anything other than an active player's hard work don't make it, and ones that choose to actively support botting (or at least look away) survive.

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:38:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
There could also be another explanation for the dips in the hourly number patterns: you have script groups operating in the system at different times as their owners log on and off. The numbers you see jumping in and out of system could reflect the manual character accounts that are jumping in, scooping loot, salvaging wrecks and then moving on. It's been several hours since the original post that I linke. I'd like to see if the numbers in that one system in Outer Passage remain at roughly the same level - that would be a whole lot of concerted "bot like player activity" for one solitary system in an entire region.
so what youre saying is that without actual numbers and analysis your words in this thread are just so much bullsheat. confirmed

Soma Khan
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:50:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
It's actually pretty cool to see some of the numbers drop.

[...some unverifiable bs posturing deleted...]

Not but a few months ago, the number of NPC's killed in a heavy bot filled system would range from 20-30k NPC kills a day and there would be multiple in a given drone region. We used to see entire constellations red on the map of NPC per 24 with 15k+ kills in each system.

Considering you gotta pick 3 systems across 3 different regions means CCP is doing something.
yeah, they altered spawn rates and warp-in distances for anoms

Arnov Karsoth
Squirrel Power
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:54:00 - [46]
 

have CCP disband alliances who are found out to allow botters funding them repetedly.

cheaters are still cheaters, just punish them as hard as needed and their associates in the alliance leaderships.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:54:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 19:55:30
Originally by: Feligast
ITT: accepting ISK to allow ACTIVE PLAYERS to stop hunting your covops = corruption.


lol Goons defining corruption. Irony?

Its funny, Id heard the Goons had turned into BoB... I wonder if Goons didnt get infiltrated by them after all instead of the other way around

Originally by: Arnov Karsoth
have CCP disband alliances who are found out to allow botters funding them repetedly.

cheaters are still cheaters, just punish them as hard as needed and their associates in the alliance leaderships.



yeah... thats never gonna happen. They didnt disband BoB when they had a DEV that they KNEW WAS A DEV cheating for them
an that was a bigger scandal than botting. Bots are in every game. Its just worse here cause of the single server player driven economy

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:57:00 - [48]
 

Kalle? That you?

Requisite "post on your main, coward" comment here.

Monstress
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:59:00 - [49]
 

The regions you speak of are Drone Regions. CCP knows there are a ton of Russian macros there, but for some reason pretend not to care/know. RMT connection?

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:03:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 20:13:42
Originally by: Feligast
Kalle? That you?

Requisite "post on your main, coward" comment here.


This IS the main on this account kthxbai

an yea what corp doesnt have a "dont post on the EVE-O General forums (or smacktalk in local - just cause I caused a little war on my main that ended up getting our corp disbanded twice, doesnt mean it was my fault) with your characters in this corp or youll be kicked" rule?
The last four Ive been in have had it lol


Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 20:56:00 - [51]
 

Really? Scrub corps. Never stop posting!

Those disbandments were surely accidents, you can't be blamed lol

BearJews
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:09:00 - [52]
 

Just a noob question here:

Doesn't heavy botting fund alliances so they can continuously build capital ships at a lower cost than having real players, mine/loot/salvage and so on?

Thanks


Delianora
Posted - 2011.08.31 21:42:00 - [53]
 

OK,we know that bots are hacked into the client...

Apparently removing local does nothing since the session change timer tells a bot to warp away when someone enters.

For those of us that dont cheat--you cant catch a bot. Before the system loads they are already warping.

SO

Why can't CCP code an invisible ship that just warps randomly along ALL of the botter regions.

We wouldn't even see it in local or on scan.

BUT every bot would see the ship.

And they would auto warp away from their ratting.

Better yet--just code such invisible ships, and place them in systems in null sec with higher than 5000 NPC kills.

If real people at the keys are killing rats, nothing happens. They cant even see the ships anyway.

But if it is a bot--the bot will autowarp to pos, cloak, and never rat again.

Why not!!!!!!

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:46:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Delianora
since the session change timer tells a bot to warp away when someone enters.



werent they removing that?

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:46:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 22:49:17
oops double post

Originally by: Feligast
Really? Scrub corps. Never stop posting!

Those disbandments were surely accidents, you can't be blamed lol


you have no idea... one of the corps we were in, dude had the BRILLIANT idea of placing a POS in a low sec pocket surrounded by high sec on the theory that "Its surrounded by high sec. You cant get a capitol ship in there cause they cant go through High sec."

S I L E N T. fixed that stupid assumption.
And the corp.
And the alliance we'd joined like 5 days earlier

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:20:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 31/08/2011 23:20:22
Originally by: Kharvor
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:32:49
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:31:49
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 14:13:02 because Mendolus' "?! detector" keeps him from AFK ratting

This information was posted in another thread:

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 31/08/2011 13:13:25

seems the spire has a good few botters in one system

also scalding pass has a few there too Scalding pass


over 14000 npcs kills in one system here Outer passage


So I followed the link and, lo and behold, there are rediculously ginourmous numbers of rats dying out there. One might even say it's freakin assembly line genocide.

So here are my questions for you CCP.

If the bot reporting system relies on us to help you by reporting bots, how does it work when the bots are in a system filled with people who condone their use? Also, why is it that an normal player can see statistics that are clearly insanely above the norm for EULA play, yet somehow CCP can't see that something fishy is going on out there? What, exactly, is CCP going to do about this?

Over 14000 NPC kills?

Are you kidding me? That's pretty much 24 hours of non-stop ratting from downtime to downtime - which, by the way, is one of the criteria you have established as a botting pattern.

Candidly, I would be thinking about firing your "EULA security guys" for utterly failing at their jobs.


please call back in 5 weeks when we're back from vacation. THANKS!

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:19:00 - [57]
 

Quote:
CCP won't permaban LOTS of people who (were botting eliminated) can't pay their subs.


Ever consider that the subs of the bots are paid with the ISK from botting (i.e. Plexes).

CCP gets NOTHING and gains NOTHING by allowing/supporting/ignoring botters.

In fact, removing bots en masse might drop member numbers but it might also force some players living on PLEX subs to actually PAY for the priviledge of playing.

Ranger 1 hit the nail on the head. If anyone was banned for botting without absolute proof (which takes alot of time and effort) then the uproar would be worse than the "bot problem"...

For mine, I see 'em, I report 'em. If enough people ALSO report same bots then we've (note the collective) done the job and bot will be eliminated.

Regardless, I would rather see CCP spend the time, follow the bot money trail and kill the whole damn money tree rather than snip off the buds to make you or anyone else happy.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:39:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
[you have no idea... one of the corps we were in, dude had the BRILLIANT idea of placing a POS in a low sec pocket surrounded by high sec on the theory that "Its surrounded by high sec. You cant get a capitol ship in there cause they cant go through High sec."

S I L E N T. fixed that stupid assumption.
And the corp.
And the alliance we'd joined like 5 days earlier


... had the guy never heard of a thing called a "cynosural field"? :cripes:

Umad Bro Questionmark
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:47:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Umad Bro Questionmark on 01/09/2011 00:58:50
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Outer_Passage#npc

Refresh it now on / hour and it has 1300 something. I'm gonna be there in 3 jumps. Let's see how long it takes for it to majorly drop.

edit: 3 in local BTW.

Cane and Chimera are the only ships that could rat in there at the present time. However, with me in local they chickened out @ pos. (not that i'm feared, they just do that with any neut in local)

Si Omega
Posted - 2011.09.01 00:57:00 - [60]
 

^^^ Hey fella. Even real people stop ratting when neuts etc. are in system. Your dastardly plan will prove nothing.


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