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Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:07:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:32:49
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:31:49
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 14:13:02 because Mendolus' "?! detector" keeps him from AFK ratting

This information was posted in another thread:

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 31/08/2011 13:13:25

seems the spire has a good few botters in one system

also scalding pass has a few there too Scalding pass


over 14000 npcs kills in one system here Outer passage


So I followed the link and, lo and behold, there are rediculously ginourmous numbers of rats dying out there. One might even say it's freakin assembly line genocide.

So here are my questions for you CCP.

If the bot reporting system relies on us to help you by reporting bots, how does it work when the bots are in a system filled with people who condone their use? Also, why is it that an normal player can see statistics that are clearly insanely above the norm for EULA play, yet somehow CCP can't see that something fishy is going on out there? What, exactly, is CCP going to do about this?

Over 14000 NPC kills?

Are you kidding me? That's pretty much 24 hours of non-stop ratting from downtime to downtime - which, by the way, is one of the criteria you have established as a botting pattern.

Candidly, I would be thinking about firing your "EULA security guys" for utterly failing at their jobs.

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:14:00 - [2]
 

Screen captures made and squirrelled away for posterity.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:17:00 - [3]
 

So you want CCP to just ban everyone in systems with high levels of NPC kills?

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:18:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Khavor
Over 14000 NPC kills?!

ITS OVER 9000!

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:20:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 31/08/2011 14:29:11
Since bot-runners might also be involved in RMT, CCP doesn't always ban proven bot accounts immediately. Sometimes they will look for patterns, so that they can catch more accounts involved in RMT than just the front-end botters.

Edit:

16,000 NPC kills may look like a lot for one system. However, the system I'm looking at (N-I024) is a refinery system in a dead-end constellation amidst a literal sea of blue space. It should have a lot of NPCs killed, since it's a perfect system for running drone anomalies. Drone anomalies can produce over 3000m3 of loot per anomaly. That loot has to be hauled to a refinery and refined into alloys if you want to get paid, since drone NPCs do not pay bounties. Shooting, salvaging and hauling requires at least ten minutes of uninterrupted play time, and closer to thirty or forty minutes if you use something besides a supercarrier. So the number of kills alone isn't necessarily indicative of botting.

That said, the downtime-to-downtime high numbers are rather suspicious. I've seen ratting ops that can go on for eight or ten hours, but 24-hour ratting at a fairly steady rate does sound suspicious.

Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:20:00 - [6]
 

Really bad for the economy this kinda of stuff, need CCP attention , hope they do something.
Or even their monocles or whatsoever expensive clothing will get undervalued since cash will flow and will be easier to acquire plex and aurum.

Think about it.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:25:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 31/08/2011 14:32:32
Originally by: Kharvor

If the bot reporting system relies on us to help you by reporting bots, how does it work when the bots are in a system filled with people who condone their use? Also, why is it that an normal player can see statistics that are clearly insanely above the norm for EULA play, yet somehow CCP can't see that something fishy is going on out there? What, exactly, is CCP going to do about this?



Allow me to tell you how the CCP bot reporting feature really works.

Some yahoo in hisec finds a botter. He reports the botter. Botter go buh bye.

Some yahoo in nullsec finds a botter. Yahoo shuts his mouth because null is "don't ask, don't tell". Or he's stupid enough to actually report it. Surprisingly, he finds himself booted out of the corp because the alliance threatens to boot the corp. Or, CCP can completely ignore it, which I think is what they're doing anyway.

The report botter feature is clearly a means to eliminate competition for nullsec, as is every change on the 5 year plan that affects other areas of Eve.

Do you get it yet?

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Takamori Maruyama
Really bad for the economy this kinda of stuff, need CCP attention , hope they do something.
Or even their monocles or whatsoever expensive clothing will get undervalued since cash will flow and will be easier to acquire plex and aurum.

Think about it.


The sky, it's falling? Good lord something must be done! Should I run around in circles screaming?

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:26:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
So you want CCP to just ban everyone in systems with high levels of NPC kills?


Did anyone say that?

No. How about if CCP gets their tails over there and takes a damn hard look at the characters and accounts that are involved in that activity. BANZOR the ones that are doing it. FFS it's not that difficult to see that it's going on in those locations. It's not just "high levels of NPC kills" it's insanely waaay over the top numbers of kills that are now (as of 14:26 EVE) over 15000 kills in one system alone. Just a tad bit suspicious.

I guess Shadow of xXDEATHXx are just waaay more Pro than all of EVE put together.

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:29:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
The sky, it's falling? Good lord something must be done! Should I run around in circles screaming?


Oh, yeah, sorry.

Everyone move along. Mendolus has decreed that there is nothing wrong. Rolling Eyes

Buruk Utama
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:29:00 - [11]
 

You know the answer to this question: "The log show nothing"

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:34:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 31/08/2011 14:45:24
Originally by: Skippermonkey
Originally by: Khavor
Over 14000 NPC kills?!

ITS OVER 9000!


actually as of 14:32 eve time 31/08/2011 its now over 15190 in N-I024 with another system QFRV-2 showing over 10000 in outer passage

insmother has many npc kills over 10000 in a few systems too Insmother

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Takamori Maruyama
Really bad for the economy this kinda of stuff, need CCP attention , hope they do something.
Or even their monocles or whatsoever expensive clothing will get undervalued since cash will flow and will be easier to acquire plex and aurum.

Think about it.


The sky, it's falling? Good lord something must be done! Should I run around in circles screaming?


To be fair, botting does have negative effects on the EVE economy by driving down the price of minerals to the point where mining becomes unprofitable relative to other activities for large numbers of players. Dr.E, CCP's economist, has opined that banning all bot accounts would crash the EVE economy, but I doubt very much that this is would happen unless virtually all active miners are actually bots. Even then, a good number of prospective miners are currently priced out of the profession, and more players will become miners if the activity becomes more profitable. If anything, banning bot accounts would stimulate the EVE economy.

malaire
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:36:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
I guess Shadow of xXDEATHXx are just waaay more Pro than all of EVE put together.

Botane has over 43000 NPC kills.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:38:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 14:41:29
Originally by: Kharvor
Originally by: Mendolus
The sky, it's falling? Good lord something must be done! Should I run around in circles screaming?


Oh, yeah, sorry.

Everyone move along. Mendolus has decreed that there is nothing wrong. Rolling Eyes


Is botting a growing problem for EVE in the past year or two? According to popular belief, yes.
Has botting in EVE reached some critical mass where we are going to be sucked into an event horizon? Uhm, no.

CCP is unlikely to assign additional full time employees to dealing with botting simply because one forum dude stomps his feet. They added the new report feature to allow the players themselves to help with the process, so get to it.

Blizzard finally added a report gold spammer feature to their own game client just a short year or two ago, after the game had already been out for four years, and they have what could easily be referred to as limitless resources compared to what CCP has I am sure, and yet they implemented basically the same system as CCP has just now implemented.

You've never seen the botters and spammers in Warcraft I'm assuming? For comparison, it would be as if a hundred pilots in Apocalypses formed a floating website ad outside of Jita IV-4 at all times day and night, and the ships would randomly dance around beyond any valid game mechanic, obviously having hacked the client itself, and form different shapes and advertisements for RMT sites, and it went on for weeks, and weeks, and the moment CCP banned them, another hundred would show up.

You think stamping out hacking is black and white?

Originally by: Alice Katsuko

To be fair, botting does have negative effects on the EVE economy by driving down the price of minerals to the point where mining becomes unprofitable relative to other activities for large numbers of players. Dr.E, CCP's economist, has opined that banning all bot accounts would crash the EVE economy, but I doubt very much that this is would happen unless virtually all active miners are actually bots. Even then, a good number of prospective miners are currently priced out of the profession, and more players will become miners if the activity becomes more profitable. If anything, banning bot accounts would stimulate the EVE economy.


Agreed, +1.

I just do not understand people who come to these forums and posts threads acting like botting has suddenly appeared out of nowhere and is ruining everything in sight. There is a huge, and I mean huge thread started by riverini on this very topic that would be the dead horse that has been beat into a bloody pulp on this issue. I mean ffs the thread has been bumped now for nine months straight, how could anyone that comes here even once a week not know of it?

CCP could not be more aware that there are hundreds of active forum goers who are fed up with seeing bots in their systems, starting a new thread on it is just silly.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Is botting a growing problem for EVE in the past year or two? According to popular belief, yes.
Has botting in EVE reached some critical mass where we are going to be sucked into an event horizon? Uhm, no.

As long as only the tech-literate & risk-neutral/-friendly players run bots eve certainly won't be "sucked into an event horizon".

Critical mass would be achieved when the easy availability of bots and inaction of ccp makes "Joe Average" think that botting on his main account may be a good idea.

For some time the RMT/botting threads took a turn towards "WTF? if these reports are true I am stupid for not running a bot" but the FF presentation did (paradoxically) quell these comments for the most part.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:07:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:08:58
Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: Mendolus
Is botting a growing problem for EVE in the past year or two? According to popular belief, yes.
Has botting in EVE reached some critical mass where we are going to be sucked into an event horizon? Uhm, no.

As long as only the tech-literate & risk-neutral/-friendly players run bots eve certainly won't be "sucked into an event horizon".

Critical mass would be achieved when the easy availability of bots and inaction of ccp makes "Joe Average" think that botting on his main account may be a good idea.

For some time the RMT/botting threads took a turn towards "WTF? if these reports are true I am stupid for not running a bot" but the FF presentation did (paradoxically) quell these comments for the most part.


Yea true that, if EVE ever becomes an arm's race like some of the old FPS and first crop of multiplayer games like Diablo were towards the end, it'll be really... really bad.

I remember in Rogue Spear, towards the end there, if you did NOT have Vertigo with a heartbeat hack and auto-aim of your own, you would not be able to catch the guaranteed player in almost every game you hosted that was using those hacks, it was that bad. By the time (six months after release) I realized I was not able to enjoy the game simply because I had to hack to catch the hackers, I stopped playing. Diablo online was the same way on public games after half a year as well, you pretty much had to have your trainer going at all times with every auto-hack, anti-godmode-godmode, and teleport hacks going to drive out the hacking PKers that would jump into your game literally every twenty minutes.

EVE is not like that, so while botting is likely a substantial problem economically, it certainly isn't ruining anyone's gameplay, supercap walls would still exist in a limited fashion if botting did not support their excessive numbers, and both sides would still face the prospect of being overwhelmed by supercap fleets even if they were half the size they are now.

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:10:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 15:11:57
Originally by: Mendolus

I just do not understand people who come to these forums and posts threads acting like botting has suddenly appeared out of nowhere and is ruining everything in sight. There is a huge, and I mean huge thread started by riverini on this very topic that would be the dead horse that has been beat into a bloody pulp on this issue. I mean ffs the thread has been bumped now for nine months straight, how could anyone that comes here even once a week not know of it?

CCP could not be more aware that there are hundreds of active forum goers who are fed up with seeing bots in their systems, starting a new thread on it is just silly.


Because that thread is huge, I mean huge, and after a time everyone (including the Devs) don't want to have to sift through 88 pages to get information about something that is being done (blatantly) right now.

Like someone posted earlier, there are 40000 + NPC kills near Dodixie, but you expect that because it's a mission running area in hisec - everyone has access to it. We're talking about a backwater area of nullsec where, allegedly, no one wants to go and CCP is thinking about buffing up the @ss.

It's a problem here. No I've never played WoW, and I'm proud of that. I don't think botting and EULA violations need to become a huge problem like they are in WoW when CCP can take an even more aggressive stance on it now. Particularly where NPC kill numbers stand out.

If you don't like these kinds of threads, do what I do for the threads I think I won't like: don't click on them.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:16:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:17:33
Originally by: Kharvor

Because that thread is huge, I mean huge, and after a time everyone (including the Devs) don't want to have to sift through 88 pages to get information about something that is being done (blatantly) right now.

Like someone posted earlier, there are 40000 + NPC kills near Dodixie, but you expect that because it's a mission running area in hisec - everyone has access to it. We're talking about a backwater area of nullsec where, allegedly, no one wants to go and CCP is thinking about buffing up the @ss.

It's a problem here. No I've never played WoW, and I'm proud of that. I don't think botting and EULA violations need to become a huge problem like they are in WoW when CCP can take an even more aggressive stance on it now. Particularly where NPC kill numbers stand out.

If you don't like these kinds of threads, do what I do for the threads I think I won't like: don't click on them.


The problem is not that you wanna talk about it, it is that you made an obviously inflammatory thread title, and then proceeded to try and raise a fuss in your original post. What is the fuss? CCP implemented a new player driven system in a player driven game to report botters, that is at least something.

If you are that concerned about botting in null sec, fly out there, and start reporting everyone in system for botting.

Certainly someone at CCP is going to see the reports, even if it were to delete them all, you are almost guaranteed that a human over in Iceland is going to take some level of note about your reports.

To me, this thread feels like someone ran into a local restaurant on a lazy summer afternoon and starts flailing their arms wildly screaming that property taxes were just too high and everyone was being bent over and it was an emergency that they all rush to town hall and bust down the front door.

Instead, most people petition for town hall meetings, and put up those fancy little red signs along the street, alerting residents that a meeting has been called on some issue, and for them to show up and tell the elected officials just what they think of the problem.

Tone it down a little maybe, this forum section has seen enough fear mongering and rabble rousing lately to last for a generation or two.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:40:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Or he's stupid enough to actually report it. Surprisingly, he finds himself booted out of the corp because someone gets an anonymous in game mail or IM from a "friend"


lol woo tinfoilery!

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:42:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Takamori Maruyama
Really bad for the economy this kinda of stuff, need CCP attention , hope they do something.
Or even their monocles or whatsoever expensive clothing will get undervalued since cash will flow and will be easier to acquire plex and aurum.

Think about it.


The sky, it's falling? Good lord something must be done! Should I run around in circles screaming?


To be fair, botting does have negative effects on the EVE economy by driving down the price of minerals to the point where mining becomes unprofitable relative to other activities for large numbers of players. Dr.E, CCP's economist, has opined that banning all bot accounts would crash the EVE economy, but I doubt very much that this is would happen unless virtually all active miners are actually bots. Even then, a good number of prospective miners are currently priced out of the profession, and more players will become miners if the activity becomes more profitable. If anything, banning bot accounts would stimulate the EVE economy.


Yes but Mendolus is the Sgt Shultz of EVE
I SEE NOTHINK

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:58:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 15:58:45
If you'll notice, at the very top of this thread I made a post wherein I asked a very specific set of questions;

1. If the bot reporting system relies on us to help you by reporting bots, how does it work when the bots are in a system filled with people who condone their use?

2. Why is it that an normal player can see statistics that are clearly insanely above the norm for EULA play, yet somehow CCP can't see that something fishy is going on out there?

3. What, exactly, is CCP going to do about this?

Not a whole hell of a lot of rabble rousing there. Very specific questions with the added bonus of links to statistics that could actually (GASP!!!) be used to discern an abnormal pattern in game.

You ask "why don't you just go out there and report them yourself?". Ok. Why don't you? Maybe you know as well as I do that's deep in Sov territory well protected and difficult to get into. Maybe you don't know, as i do, that when you jump into their bot system they all warp and POS / Station up. You see? Refer to question #1 above. How does the new reporting system intend to work in the areas where botting is common and endorsed by the controlling alliance?

I've tried observing and reporting bots the old fashioned way. I've sent nice little emails to GM's and I've even tried the "go to the town hall and put up a sign' route which you suggested. At the end of the day the bots are still there. They're doing their thing uninterrupted, and people such as yourself keep on preaching appeasement and "it really isn't the end of the world". Meanwhile CCP can'tfigure out why there's too much ISK in the game and why their economy and prices are all out of whack. Even worse, they're now discussing (which is CCP for "it's on it's way") the idea of nerfing hisec minerals and ice and giving all to those bots out there.

You may not see this as a problem. I do. You don't get to decide what I think is importantant, nor do you get to crown yourself the moderator of all things anti-bot.

Let CCP worry about the morale and good order of their forums, and stop trying to stomp out threads that you can just avoid all-together.

The Lucent Ogre
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:59:00 - [23]
 

The biggest thing to always remember, when attempting to stay calm in these type of situations, is CCP doesn't care about you, EVE, or botting. Keep this in mind next time you notice something that isn't right and you'll realize speaking out about it won't matter so why waste your time.

XJennieX
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:14:00 - [24]
 

lol what a big surprise whose systems those are.. solar, red alliance and xdeath... hey ccp how bout some banning stuff and while you are at it nerf//kill all supercaps so people could actually again have some fun fights in 0.0 (and own space in 0.0 other than russians)

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:15:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
...


Numerous warnings from my ?! detector begs to differ with you.

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:18:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:21:29
Originally by: Mendolus
Numerous warnings from my ?! detector begs to differ with you.


Then stop listening to your "?! detector" and let other people have an opinion that differs from yours.

Originally by: XJennieX
lol what a big surprise whose systems those are.. solar, red alliance and xdeath...


I'm glad someone else noticed that too.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:26:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:21:29
Originally by: Mendolus
Numerous warnings from my ?! detector begs to differ with you.


Then stop listening to your "?! detector" and let other people have an opinion that differs from yours.


I don't disagree with you that botting is a problem.



I disagree with all the exclamations and OHMGEE GUYZ! threads about it when there is already a threadnought for it all to go into.

I'm tired of it, what the ___ is the point of this ^ ? as a poster above just said.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:31:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kharvor
Originally by: Mendolus
So you want CCP to just ban everyone in systems with high levels of NPC kills?


Did anyone say that?

No. How about if CCP gets their tails over there and takes a damn hard look at the characters and accounts that are involved in that activity. BANZOR the ones that are doing it. FFS it's not that difficult to see that it's going on in those locations. It's not just "high levels of NPC kills" it's insanely waaay over the top numbers of kills that are now (as of 14:26 EVE) over 15000 kills in one system alone. Just a tad bit suspicious.

I guess Shadow of xXDEATHXx are just waaay more Pro than all of EVE put together.


I believe the point is that CCP is probably already investigating the activity in that system. You have no idea (nor should you) who is currently being investigated. If you knew, then others (including the subject of the investigation) would know as well and temporarily curtail their activities, thus making the investigation that much more difficult and time consuming.

As has already been pointed out, it's not a simple matter of having a likely suspicion and banning an individual character. They need to be completely sure, they need to investigate, and they need to find as many links to other accounts as possible. This takes time to do properly, and during that time you will continue to see the suspicious activity until one day they are simply gone.

Kharvor
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
I'm tired of it, what the ___ is the point of this ^ ? as a poster above just said.


The point now being I get to keep you from doing whatever else you could be doing right now instead of needlessly trying to moderate a forum thread.

@Ranger 1 - It would be nice to hear from CCP at some point, or to see those numbers start to drop very quickly. However, your point is well taken.


Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:51:00 - [30]
 

I'm tempted to say "well they have to pay the rent (IRL) don't they?" but that would be trite.

True though.

CCP won't permaban LOTS of people who (were botting eliminated) can't pay their subs.

Same old same old out in the drone regions.

Anyone surprised?


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