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Sin Full
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:53:00 - [1]
 

Hello.. Im here to discuss Hulks and Hulk ganking.. On my main account i have been in the Minmatar Militia for over 2 years and it is by far my favorite thing to do in EVE so i am no carebear..

But i also Mine alot when im not with a Militia fleet and manafacture a ton of Ammo each week.. Everything from EMP L to Torpedoes to Bombs and i make a nice ammount of ISK from doing so and
it is what funds my PVP with the militia..

I have been training for a Hulk and in 2 days i will be able to fly one and it will boost my profits..

But there is a problem.. I am being warned left, right and center that i shouldnt fly one because "IT WILL get ganked" and obviously then that would lower my profits a hell of alot and for quite a while and i will not be able to keep putting the Ammo on the market so the economy is effected aswell..

I know that Hulks are said to be ganked all the time and im sure that they do get ganked.. I have seen the videos, i know of Hulkageddon.. I know it can be fun to gank such an expensive ship with little resistance from the Hulk pilot or little ability to fight back..

With so many of them being ganked its a wonder there is an EVE economy at all.. Miners make alot of the items found on the market.. If not all and yet they are killed all the time because the ships are relatively weak and i dont think they should be as weak as they are..

Anyway.. Getting to the point.. I think that Hulks should be made stronger either by boosting EHP/Shield ammount or by being given some extra slots or even both.. It is only a matter of time before these miners quit mining and get tired of paying out 200Mil+ and then prices on the market will go higher and higher because there will be less of most items which is bad for everyone..

I know that i am less excited now about flying and mining with my Hulk now because it will probably be ganked and i havnt even lost it yet.. So the pilots who have had theirs ganked wouldnt be surprisng if they did stop..

I NEVER fly a ship that i cant afford to lose.. My time in Militia has taught me well but for a 200Mil+ ship i think it should be stronger than it is right now and more resiliant to ganking as it seems alot of people enjoy doing it..

I know that ganking can be alot of fun to do and by all means it should stay in the game.. I just think it should be harder to do against mining ships

What does everyone think about this? hopefully this will get some mature answers and hopefully some Hulk pilots can also comment with what they think..

Thanks for reading
Smile

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:58:00 - [2]
 

Fit it for max tank instead of max mining perfomance and it will be similar in EHP to HACs.

Sha4d13
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:59:00 - [3]
 

You could:

1- Sacrifice some mining power for more protection
2- Scout / guard your mining op properly
3- Mine in relatively safe places

Risk v reward :-)

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:00:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Simetraz on 31/08/2011 14:19:27

The short of the matter is that gankers take down freighters so no amount of extra tank will make a difference.
Hulks currently can tank 0.0 rats without issue while not compromising there yield so overall they do not need a buff.

CCP could be a little nice though and boost up the native shield resists a little but that would be them being nice so don't count on it.

All I can suggest is find a better location to mine and/or be more aware while you mine.

Some people will say lose your yield for a tank, don't listen to them there is no need.
See above you can tank them but you will go down if someone wants to kill you and you are still in the belt.




Taharqua10
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:02:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Fit it for max tank instead of max mining perfomance and it will be similar in EHP to HACs.


I agree fully with this. I mined in null for quite sometime & the Hulk with the right mods, albeit, expensive can fit an immense tank for rat belt protection. However it does not fair as well in a PVP situation but then again its not expected to being a mining ship.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:16:00 - [6]
 

sounds to me like a well concealed miner posting as someone with pvp experience. By all accounts the militias are dead anyway (so we're told).

you should know how to survive in a hulk in hi sec. Just align back to a station and if you see lots of frigs/cruisers warping to the guy 1000M off you .. warp if you have time, it'll be all the defense you need.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:33:00 - [7]
 

It still surprises me that with the suicide ganking going on for ages, (some) miners have not adapted to this obvious threat with the obvious solution: Maximum buffer tank. 25k EHPs are easy to get with a Hulk. Hell, even my alts Procurer has 5k EHP.

Other people don't tank their ships and those are the ones that get ganked by a single Thrasher or Torax.

But whatever. As long as there are easier targets around, my mining ships will get skipped when gankers choose their victims.

No need to improve the Hulk. Only the Mack could use some more CPU so it can fit some kind of proper tank, when it's trying.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:40:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Sha4d13

1- Sacrifice some mining power for more protection
2- Scout / guard your mining op properly
3- Mine in relatively safe places



You don't guard a high sec mining operation.

A. There is nothing they can do that CONCORD won't already do, after the fact.
B. It ruins the per pilot profit which are already bleak.

As said by a few others, 1 & 3 are your best options. Tank your Hulk and find a nice quiet system where you learn who the locals are.

The only improvement I'd like to see to the T2 barges are improved agility so a miner can react. 'Passive' alignment is worthless which leaves you with aligning at 75% speed. If you do align it'll become difficult to dump into your Orca.

The final option is to just give up mining until CCP revisits it and gives up on the idea that AFK mining is a good design. I get the feeling that some of their designers leave Hulks in the belts while they work. I think I've taken my Hulk out of the garage once in the past few months and I don't think any of my corp members have flown them much more than that either.


Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:49:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 31/08/2011 14:49:35
the problem with mining barges/exumers is they are medium sized ships with frig sized pg and cpu.

if ccp fixed it so they could fit medium sized modules they wouldn't be so weak.

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:54:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Simetraz on 31/08/2011 15:06:24
Originally by: Narisa Bithon
Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 31/08/2011 14:49:35
the problem with mining barges/exhumers is they are medium sized ships with frig sized pg and cpu.

if ccp fixed it so they could fit medium sized modules they wouldn't be so weak.


But then a miner could lay a trap for the people that want to kill them.
Can't have that, Hulks are supposed to be the prey not the hunters.

All kidding aside CCP did severally gimp them from that standpoint.
Granted at one time a NOS Hulk was effective, but now.
You could give a hulk the HP of a BS and it still wouldn't be overpowered.
And let not talk about the cost of the BPO's and there location.
3rd class citizen is a overstatement when it comes to what CCP think's of mining as a profession.
Big bad PvP'rs are so scared of the mighty hulk fleets LaughingLaughingLaughing

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:05:00 - [11]
 

My hulks are fit like this. I have a problem with >200m ships with 10k EHP fits, so this one has 26k (29k with Orca with shield harmonizing link).


[Hulk, Hisec]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II

Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Magnetic Scattering Amplifier
Additional Thermal Barrier Emitter I
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5

Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:14:00 - [12]
 

You sure that you are a pvper?

Hulks are fine, love to smell the fear of a miner.

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
My hulks are fit like this. I have a problem with >200m ships with 10k EHP fits, so this one has 26k (29k with Orca with shield harmonizing link).


[Hulk, Hisec]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II

Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Magnetic Scattering Amplifier
Additional Thermal Barrier Emitter I
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5



1 medium nuet and thats a dead hulk in one cycle of the nuet

Sir Hillary
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:21:00 - [14]
 

As someone who used to spend a lot of time mining, and still takes his Hulk out a couple of times a week, I have 2 things to say.

Firstly, don't be too worried about going out and mining. Take necessary precations yes (fit a decent tank, watch local, stay aligned to station, find a quiet system etc.), but suicide ganking of Hulks is not as common as you've probably been led to believe. People get you thinking you'll be doging gank attempts left right and centre, but it's just not true.

Secondly, Hulks do not need a buff. Actually, what we need is for everything I said in my previous statement to be wrong. We need more mindless destruction of mining ships, and miners unwilling to go out because their boat is at serious risk. The mineral market is currently way oversaturated, as anyone who has witnessed the steady decline of prices will attest to. Back when I undocked my Hulk for the first time I could sit in high-sec making an easy 10 mill an hour, now I'm lucky if I get half that. The risk-reward scale for mining needs a serious boost on both sides of the equation.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:22:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
1 medium nuet and thats a dead hulk in one cycle of the nuet

You have time for a neuting cycle while suicide ganking?

Simetraz
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:35:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Simetraz on 31/08/2011 15:37:06
Originally by: Sir Hillary

We need more mindless destruction of mining ships, and miners unwilling to go out because their boat is at serious risk. The mineral market is currently way oversaturated, as anyone who has witnessed the steady decline of prices will attest to. Back when I undocked my Hulk for the first time I could sit in high-sec making an easy 10 mill an hour, now I'm lucky if I get half that. The risk-reward scale for mining needs a serious boost on both sides of the equation.


Actually Prices are still higher then what they were when I started for low ends.
The only exception is Isogen.
Market saturated, hardly.

Risk versus reward.
Ummm mission running nets a lot more money and the odds of you getting ganked is ten times lower.
And if you can't fit a ship to tank the mission well the info is out there all you have to do is run the number so there isn't any risk there either.

The whole thing is academic anyways, nothing has changed and nothing will change.
So you either adapt to survive or move on to some other profession.

Tikera Tissant
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:58:00 - [17]
 

If gankers want you dead, you will die.
Mightier ships have died before.

Also as said, if you fit your hulk well, it will not die so easily, and you will be able to have a chance until concord comes to save the day.

The hulk cost a lot because its great for mining and can survive a bit until helps comes.
And the materials cost a lot Razz

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:15:00 - [18]
 



hulk  (hlk)
n.
1. Nautical
a. A heavy, unwieldy ship.
b. The hull of an old, unseaworthy, or wrecked ship.
c. An old or unseaworthy ship used as a prison or warehouse. Often used in the plural.
2. One, such as a person or object, that is bulky, clumsy, or unwieldy.
3. A wrecked or abandoned shell of a usually large object, such as a building or vehicle.
intr.v. hulked, hulk·ing, hulks
1. To appear as a massive or towering form; loom: The big truck hulked out of the fog.
2. To move clumsily.
[Middle English, from Old English hulc, from Medieval Latin hulcus, probably from Greek holkas, ship that is towed, merchant ship, from holkos, machine for hauling ships, from helkein, to pull.]

Sounds like a fitting name to me

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:18:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sin Full
But there is a problem.. I am being warned left, right and center that i shouldnt fly one because "IT WILL get ganked" and obviously then that would lower my profits a hell of alot and for quite a while and i will not be able to keep putting the Ammo on the market so the economy is effected aswell.

A tanked Hulk in 0.8+ is Brutix-proof. An EHP buffer Hulk in 0.5+ that sacrifices some mining power is Tempest-proof (in theory; I've heard of people getting two volleys off with a Tempest before CONCORD shows up sometimes though.) This holds true if there's only one attacker, although let's be honest why in the world should a medium-sized mining barge target be able to fend off an attack from multiple Brutixes or Tempests, when HACs can't even do it?

Quote:
With so many of them being ganked

Even Hulkageddon doesn't have much effect on the economy apart from a boost to Hulk manufacturers.

Quote:
prices on the market will go higher and higher because there will be less of most items which is bad for everyone..

Except for manufacturers like you. But it's irrelevant because like I said, there aren't THAT many Hulks being ganked, and huge amounts of minerals are added to the market from the drone regions and mission refining in addition to what gets mined by conventional miners.

Satav
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:31:00 - [20]
 

Overall, I don't believe that hulks need a buff. Logically, their naked hp could be increased slightly considering the ship is the same size as a bc but is not necessary.

I myself am a huge carebear, making 2.1 billion a week off mining in high sec. However, this does not change my belief that gankings are necessary and even healthy for the eve economy and industry.

It sets a higher standard for the players who are industry-based to play smart: example, 0.0 watch intel/local, mine in groups with scouts/ properly tank your hulk, high sec/ watch local for known gankers/ pay attention to your overview, be dry aligned etc. etc.

I could go on and on but the point is the reason eve is so fun and rewarding is because its difficult and challenging. It takes skill to perform the various roles of eve.

I don't don't think that making something easier for a particular area just because its difficult and not for a logical game balance is obsurd.

P.S.
Ganking keeps the macro-miner population down which is good for everyone, including real miners.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.31 17:41:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Narisa Bithon
1 medium nuet and thats a dead hulk in one cycle of the nuet

You expect to last until the hardener/DCU cycles end?

To date I've never been neuted. I also overheat the hardeners when things look suspicious; hardeners can take a lot of heat damage, so pre-emptively overheating on a false alarm isn't a problem.

Victoria Wolfe
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:09:00 - [22]
 

In addition to tanking your Hulk I'd suggest trying the following:

1. Pick two warp out points. These can be anything but works best if a line drawn between the two points runs parallel to the belt.

2. Get into a good position and start mining.

3. Align to one of the points and set your speed to be 3/4s. This is the required speed for warp to be initiated.

4. Travel towards the warp out point at 3/4s until you're nearly out of range of your desired rocks, and then do an about-face and align to the second warp out point.

5. Repeat.

The goal of this maneuver is to be at in a constant warp out state. So if someone jumps on top of you suddenly you can just mash the warp button and you're gone. If you have a hauler friend or alt they can just follow you and pick up your jet cans as you go. This works well because the Hulk is so slow and has such good mining range you wouldn't have to turn around that often. This slowness is the reason you'll never warp out in time if attacked while stationary, as it will take too long to crawl your way to 3/4s speed.

The main draw backs to this is it requires constant attention and if you're not quick it's still possible for a ganker to lock and warp scramble you, but in my experience most Hulk gankers aren't going to carry scrams because they don't expect you to be able to run away in time.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:40:00 - [23]
 

u might get ganked...its a matter of luck really, never mine during hulkageddon either.

to be relatively safe while mining find a grav site or mine in a cleared mission, but honestly, the chance of being ganked in a hulk are pretty low compared to all the hulks out there, fit for a good tank and it will probably happen 1-2 times per year on average, and since hulk mines a lot more then a covetor, its worth it imo

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:57:00 - [24]
 

The fact is, the mineral market will not become truly profitable until something is done about all the macrominers in null over-saturating the market. Hence, there is no way to increase the profitability of mining without first dealing with that.

Secondly, I think that the risks of hulks being ganked are far overstated. Think of it like a shark attack. It's a tragedy when it does happen, and you're almost certain to here about it, but at the end of the day you can take some simple steps to minimize the risk.

Thirdly, mining ships are fine as they are, it's the people whose attitudes say that 'they should fix my ship' rather than 'I should change my playstyle' who make mining sound terrible.

Ryhss
Caldari
The Excecutorans
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:13:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Sha4d13
You could:

1- Sacrifice some mining power for more protection
2- Scout / guard your mining op properly
3- Mine in relatively safe places

Risk v reward :-)
This makes sense to me. Seems like that's the way Eve should be.

Elyssa MacLeod
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:19:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
It still surprises me that with the suicide ganking going on for ages, (some) miners have not adapted to this obvious threat with the obvious solution: Maximum buffer tank. 25k EHPs are easy to get with a Hulk. Hell, even my alts Procurer has 5k EHP.




random question, whats more important in a tank? EHP or DPS (not offensive DPS tank DPS)

T'Laar Bok
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:27:00 - [27]
 

Yep, tanking works so well thats why low sec is stuffed to the brim with industrial corps and their huge hulk fleets. Rolling Eyes



Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:39:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
Originally by: Abrazzar
It still surprises me that with the suicide ganking going on for ages, (some) miners have not adapted to this obvious threat with the obvious solution: Maximum buffer tank. 25k EHPs are easy to get with a Hulk. Hell, even my alts Procurer has 5k EHP.




random question, whats more important in a tank? EHP or DPS (not offensive DPS tank DPS)

In highsec against suicide ganking, EHPs. Their time is limited and they may just aim to alpha you. At least on the local mining ships. Having some remote repper around to push up shields again in an instant may thwart a ganking attempt that is not just alpha'ing you. Maybe just circle jerk with shield bots, have a Osprey around or fit a shield transfer on the Orca.

Lord Hedge
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:44:00 - [29]
 

If you Sacrifice some mining power for more protection on the Hulk you should just fly a converter. As it's 1/13th the cost and can be insured. The purpose of the Hulk is to mine more Effectively. In High sec you should not have to worry about this happening. However this is not the case. I'm glad my mining days are behind me. As it's so boring... And losing a hulk for a honest miner is a huge set back.

Elyssa MacLeod
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:51:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
Originally by: Abrazzar
It still surprises me that with the suicide ganking going on for ages, (some) miners have not adapted to this obvious threat with the obvious solution: Maximum buffer tank. 25k EHPs are easy to get with a Hulk. Hell, even my alts Procurer has 5k EHP.




random question, whats more important in a tank? EHP or DPS (not offensive DPS tank DPS)

In highsec against suicide ganking, EHPs. Their time is limited and they may just aim to alpha you. At least on the local mining ships. Having some remote repper around to push up shields again in an instant may thwart a ganking attempt that is not just alpha'ing you. Maybe just circle jerk with shield bots, have a Osprey around or fit a shield transfer on the Orca.


What about like mission running/ratting?


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