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ISD Eshtir


ISD YARR
Posted - 2011.08.31 19:46:00 - [31]
 

Hello everyone,

It's time for me to hump this thread aswell, as i consider this an epic Dev Blog. It's all about the EVElopedia, baby.

And yes it's true! The YARRmy wants you!
We are looking for a helpful bunch of skillful wiki contributers. If you ever wanted to be part of the EVE Online ISD team and help out other EVE players with your knowledge, here is your chance. If you are a wikimanic and:

*) 18+ years old
*) have a good grasp of the english language
*) played EVE for atleast 3 months
*) MediaWiki knowledge is a huge plus


go ahead and apply here.

If you are fluent in other languages aswell this is a plus aswell! ugh

If you have any questions regarding YARR, the recruitment in general or the EVElopedia. Ask your questions here and we will do our best to answer them.

ProTip: DO NOT ask about your application in here. Drop us a mail at leads@eve-yarr.net for that.

PPS.: EVElopedia chat on irc.coldfront.net #evelopedia

Thanks for reading and we are looking forward to read your applications.


Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:04:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Officer Spawn
I've noticed something peculiar on the recent patch notes and dev blogs: everything could just as easily be for World of Darkness. API export, forums, a wiki, a MMO Facebook clone, clothes, your Captain's Quarters, none of it is even remotely related to EVE Online.

Is this what you are trying to keep out of the CSM Summit minutes, that all EVE development is now limited to stuff that can also be used in WoD ?


I think the EVE Gate/new forums stuff is as much to do with Dust514 tbh. EVE is going to need better infrastructure to tie the two together.

You're right that alot of this stuff can be reapplied to CCP's other upcoming products, but that doesn't make it useless to move EVE forward. The new API stuff sounds great tbh, at last I can give an API key out for a killboard that doesn't give out a heap of other info about my character at the same time.

Developing their tech to be 'cross-product' has been a long term goal of CCP's for years now, and they've been very open about it too. They call it Carbon. Why not have one set of tools that all products can benefit from? As a company CCP need to become more than a one trick pony (EVE), with Carbon they can develop features that benefit multiple products at once.

Hopefully we're nearing the end of their tool building phase and will start to see the fruits coming through again soon. A better wiki and forum would be a start.

Kossaw
H A V O C
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:58:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: inexistin
Edited by: inexistin on 31/08/2011 13:52:01
Edited by: inexistin on 31/08/2011 13:51:30
Interesting. Make it wide (not like in the second picture, where 1/3 to 1/2 of the screen is used to show me nightmares instead of information) and you'll be involuntarilly making it awesome as well.

Edit: WTT awesome lvl 6 MS Paint skills for clarity


+1

Nice to see the Wiki getting love. Good job guys. Please finish properly.

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:11:00 - [34]
 

Scientific studies have proven ****ing to be a natural, beneficial process. Why all the ****er hate CCP?

Lyla Deerdan
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:42:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Lyla Deerdan on 01/09/2011 01:43:53
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Don’t do it, we will ban you. We will still be looking over all the submissions and anything that breaches the rules will get you spanked and possibly banned depending on how naughty you were.


By "ban", do you mean "in-game ban" or just a ban on the wiki, as the rules suggest it? Because if its the latter, I hope you are fully aware and lucid that the next CAOD forum war may very well be waged at the expense of this tool and the countless hours volunteers will have put into it.

Shocked

T1nyTradingMan
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:33:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: T1nyTradingMan on 01/09/2011 02:52:59
Edited by: T1nyTradingMan on 01/09/2011 02:37:14
Hey guys,

Its very clear that you guys have been very busy. Although many on the forums can't see the effort going into this release and everything still ongoing, I certainly can.

I hope it goes smoothly [sorrry had to change out mining crystals there] and I can't wait to see where all this back end wizardry takes the game. I'm also very keen for the next release with establishments and hopefully the new nebulae [?].

The wiki itself looks awesome and it is deinately [damn small roids in this field] something that has been bringing the web presence down.

Question: Are there going to be any possibilities to embed video or audio into the articles? If so would they be playable in game? If you want an effective help system then this would have to be a huge benefit and the idea of players making stratedy vids that would later be selected as links within game help appeals to me. Some form of moderation would be needed of course but the quantity shouldn't be huge.

Oh and I know there are security issues with the ingame browser.. is there any format you would support? The video screens in CQ must use something? Perhaps allow people to submit videos in a particualr format and you do the conversion..

Mr M
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:37:00 - [37]
 

Boo! Hiss! I laughed at the title Very Happy

Asta Ddu
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:31:00 - [38]
 

Why are you wasting so much screen space on NON-CONTENT items?

Yes the wiki should be a "fixed" width - the width of my browser window!

Any banner should not overpower the content of the page...

It's a WIKI not a marketing page!


Aus Man Industries
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:22:00 - [39]
 

SO wide useless boarder=sexy
while we are forced to read narrow column?

Oh ya i'll look forward to that... didn't we already complain about that when they had the narrow new forums?

Why must you have such wide sides? you wear blinders?

St Mio
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:41:00 - [40]
 

The lack of typography love in this thread makes me sad :(

Quote:
Measure (or sometimes "The Measure") in typography refers to the width of a block or column of text from the left margin to the right margin. Punctuation should preferably hang outside the measure. It is relative to each design, but can be used as a unit of measurement within that design to create unity and harmony.

The measure of a text influences legibility. Long lines are hard to read, short lines are more easily read. 45–75 characters per line are regarded as the ideal range for the measure. For multiple column setups, 40–50 characters are often preferred. 66 is sometimes considered ideal for one column setups. [1][2]


And this is why we don't have text stretching right across the screen.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Divine Power.
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.09.01 06:01:00 - [41]
 

What about item and system entries in Evelopedia?

There should be a way of adding content to item entries, but making it so people don't have to scroll through two pages of generic attributes from Show Info before being able to read the actual entry people have made. Make it collapsible? Have it so text can go above the great big block of tables? Either one would be very helpful, thx.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.09.01 08:54:00 - [42]
 

I know you guys work hard, but I hate the narrow layout as well. It also makes it really hard to make nice wiki pages with images as the narrow layout will screw that up. So please don't.

Your main problem is not how the wiki looks (it looks fine), but that key game features documentation suck.
A good example :
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_interaction
Still has not been updated to the latest version. I'd do it but I lack the time (and frankly, the interest, as PI has been a major disappointment for me).



Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.01 10:38:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 01/09/2011 10:39:22

@players,

As a very regular contributor to Evelopedia, I need to point out a few facts.

1) You don't need to be a member of YARR to edit/contribute. You can log in with your normal Game/Forum details.

2) Don't be afraid to make edits, Evelopedia don't need a massive amount of new content, it needs lots of small additions and correction edits to those little details.

3) Use the Talk pages.o

@CCP

1) Please automatically add the {{DBstub}} to pages in the item database. The extra edits necessary to ensure wiki links shown as valid (orange) rather than invalid (red) are a painful waste of time.
2) More automatic content, Corporations (NPC & PC), stations, agents by type (Mission, Event, Storyline), Agent avatar images, important event & back ground characters.
3) More templates, little templates, big templates, lots more templates; missions by type, agent, planet, station.
4) Auto link materials in Blueprints.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2011.09.01 10:54:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: inexistin
Edited by: inexistin on 31/08/2011 13:52:01
Edited by: inexistin on 31/08/2011 13:51:30
Interesting. Make it wide (not like in the second picture, where 1/3 to 1/2 of the screen is used to show me nightmares instead of information) and you'll be involuntarilly making it awesome as well.

Edit: WTT awesome lvl 6 MS Paint skills for clarity


Lol nice pic :). This is an ongoing area of.. "discussion" with the designers. I think there are positives to be had with the fixed width but I am of the opinion that wiki is content and therefore more content = good. It's likely that we will review this.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2011.09.01 10:57:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Pak Narhoo
why, oh why do you waste so much space on A HUGE STUPID BANNER in your wiki?




cos even tho its stupid its somewhat attractive for the first page to land on. Admitedly it may be somewhat larger than needed. I could draw parallels to certain incorrect and misinformed views about blonde, buxom and intelligence but I will not.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2011.09.01 11:13:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 01/09/2011 10:39:22

@players,

As a very regular contributor to Evelopedia, I need to point out a few facts.

1) You don't need to be a member of YARR to edit/contribute. You can log in with your normal Game/Forum details.

2) Don't be afraid to make edits, Evelopedia don't need a massive amount of new content, it needs lots of small additions and correction edits to those little details.

3) Use the Talk pages.o

@CCP

1) Please automatically add the {{DBstub}} to pages in the item database. The extra edits necessary to ensure wiki links shown as valid (orange) rather than invalid (red) are a painful waste of time.
2) More automatic content, Corporations (NPC & PC), stations, agents by type (Mission, Event, Storyline), Agent avatar images, important event & back ground characters.
3) More templates, little templates, big templates, lots more templates; missions by type, agent, planet, station.
4) Auto link materials in Blueprints.



Just want to re-itterate Wykes points about the fact that anyone can contribute, you can all contribute and I would personally love it if you, yes you reading this right now, did. But like, with EVE stuff, not with that other depraved thing you were thinking about.

Wyke,

1) We can do this automatically in the next update but personally i was looking for a better solution to the item database issues, for example we thought about having tabs on Item DB pages. Tab for the Item DB info and a tab for the wiki content info and ideas like that. Nothing concrete yet but if you have some ideas hit the evelopedia team up on evelopedia@isd.eve-online.com or my talk page on evelopedia or my email.

2) Yes, this is something I want to do, we get the information in the data export and it makes perfect sense to incorporate that into an automatic filling of pages, however i want a sensible solution to our current problems with the way we do it currently with the Item DB. i.e. a wiki page and an item db page cant co-exist decently together, where as they should totally be able too.

3) Yes, but players can do this too! We might get people access to the CSS to help with this.

4) Good idea, i'll look into it.

Publius Valerius
Amarr
Posted - 2011.09.01 13:04:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Publius Valerius on 01/09/2011 13:04:45
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 01/09/2011 10:39:22

@players,

As a very regular contributor to Evelopedia, I need to point out a few facts.




Qool I am at four Razz

plz dont forget my questions on the previous pages... by the way I think EVElopedia/YARR and CCP needs better way to communicate stuff or getting feedback (see here)...

currently their are many open construction sites... like the System pages and the lack planets... or the NPC Corp pages have to many different versions (what is my fault too) see here (ISD Crystal Carbonide Version), here (my version) and here (the old version)... I think... CCP or YARR should work on some good guidelines and help pages... like they have done on the fiction site... I think that would help too... because I think many players are just afraid to do something wrong... so they do nothingNeutral

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:19:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: CCP Abraxas
The Immersion Project is definitely more than that, but the very first part we launch will be an out-of-game large scale wiki section. Once we've hammered out the kinks in the fiction wiki, iterated on it and gotten it stable, we'll move on to the in-game part.

Incidentally, note that the core of the project is and likely will remain the wiki, which holds all the lore - not the in-game part, which is intended to function primarily as a roleplayed portal to the wiki. We may eventually do some other clever things with the in-game section, but they're not the point of the whole project.

I'll do a separate dev blog on the Immersion Project later on.


That all sounds resonable, I hope to see it grow into something "clever" in game and usefull out of game.

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.09.01 14:47:00 - [49]
 

Fixed width allows the designers to actually design the content and to maintain readability. Design becomes a total pain when a browser width can be set in such a wide range of widths. We battled this problem at work. I started off pushing heavily for fluid design but in the end I realized that fixed width solves a lot of problems.

Optimal line lengths for readability is currently around 95 characters per line. The only reason you see so much 'wasted space' is that you have your browser window set so wide. Big monitors should be about seeing multiple documents when you are reading.

Readability study: http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/72/LineLength.asp

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:22:00 - [50]
 

I have very little to add (other than to say Fixed Width is Good; if I can't view something fully on 50% of my screen it's too wide), but thanks at least for doing something positive. The past few months have been awful; this isn't. So... yay.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.09.01 19:20:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Salpun on 04/09/2011 04:28:22
We got a time frame for this roll outWink?

Will all pages need to be tweeked or are they good as is?

I second the make afraid to mistakes part. I would make more but where to go for the real facts.

It might be a good idea to have a IC and a out Character tab at the top of the page for search results too.

There also needs to be a way for CCP to identify besides locking the whole page if possible what is "offical" and what is not maybe with muliple levels so yarr can lock down some text for CCP review. Lockable sectin section headers might be workable or additinal tabs that invite player addititions and are easier to work with like rumers about tab etc.

Will the new system allow devblogs to be added to the wiki so links can be added by the players maybe in a seperate tab?

Will adding new catagory links be worth it at this time or will you be able to do searches and add them all in at once like the every page using the [[IC]] header now being in a In-Character category?

The last time I started making one I got shot down by YARR.
Is the current ruling 2009 on category tags attached to database items still true?
More specificly will the category tree stay the same or will it change. The current wiki page on it neeeeds to be updated bad.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.09.02 01:16:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: St Mio
The lack of typography love in this thread makes me sad :(

Quote:
Measure (or sometimes "The Measure") in typography refers to the width of a block or column of text from the left margin to the right margin. Punctuation should preferably hang outside the measure. It is relative to each design, but can be used as a unit of measurement within that design to create unity and harmony.

The measure of a text influences legibility. Long lines are hard to read, short lines are more easily read. 45–75 characters per line are regarded as the ideal range for the measure. For multiple column setups, 40–50 characters are often preferred. 66 is sometimes considered ideal for one column setups. [1][2]


And this is why we don't have text stretching right across the screen.


Originally by: Rees Noturana
Fixed width allows the designers to actually design the content and to maintain readability. Design becomes a total pain when a browser width can be set in such a wide range of widths. We battled this problem at work. I started off pushing heavily for fluid design but in the end I realized that fixed width solves a lot of problems.

Optimal line lengths for readability is currently around 95 characters per line. The only reason you see so much 'wasted space' is that you have your browser window set so wide. Big monitors should be about seeing multiple documents when you are reading.

Readability study: http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/72/LineLength.asp


The problem is, that's not actually what most of the people who use the website seem to think. And, for that matter, it's not what your referenced document seems to think - the longest line length studied(95 characters) had the fastest reading speed, and there were no comprehension differences. All the "66 is ideal" is likely based on indented, non-line-separated text, which lacks the most essential feature of online text formatting, the line break. With line breaks, longer text is easier, because it makes paragraphs physically shorter, and thus the lines easier to separate. IMO, the ideal text width is the one that leads to an average paragraph being 3-5 lines tall - shorter and the line breaks start to lose their separation value, longer and you start to care about picking up lines at the other side again.

Also, you're missing the rather obvious point that with a variable-width document, I can make the lines as long or short as I wish them to be by scaling the window. With fixed-width, I'm stuck on CCP's rails. If you like it half a screen wide, make the window half a screen wide. If you like splitting your monitor to show lots of stuff, do that. Don't force me to follow you, though.

Johnathan Roark
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.09.02 01:33:00 - [53]
 

Are you looking at EVE-Dev Wiki as well?

Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
Posted - 2011.09.02 14:20:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Also, you're missing the rather obvious point that with a variable-width document, I can make the lines as long or short as I wish them to be by scaling the window. With fixed-width, I'm stuck on CCP's rails. If you like it half a screen wide, make the window half a screen wide. If you like splitting your monitor to show lots of stuff, do that. Don't force me to follow you, though.


Thank you for debating this issue with reason and civility. I understand this point as well. I've been hesitant to argue these points due to the constant attacks on anything CCP does with nothing but pure hatred. Debate is a good thing.

There is also a compromise solution that is rarely taken because it hasn't been well supported by Internet Explorer and that is to define a minimum and maximum width for content. Allow for users to resize their browser window and have the layout act fluid up to a point. Even more advanced designs will restructure a page based on that width to make more efficient use of the space.

I like the new design better than this current one. I agree that there are better design choices that can be made both at the UI level as well as down to their choice of technologies to run the site.

I think the reason why designers fall back to a fixed width layout instead of investigating something smarter in between fixed and fluid is due to the training that most graphic designers receive. Designers tend to start on paper within its rigid confines. That limits choices and makes it easier to find a design solution. Once your layout becomes flexible you lose control.

TL;DR

Designers lose control with fluid so they feel more comfortable with fixed width. Users lose control with fixed. Designer has a deadline so they choose the fastest route to the solution.

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2011.09.03 04:02:00 - [55]
 

I like the pun in the title, b/c I liked that album ;)

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.09.04 23:52:00 - [56]
 


Awesome! I was hoping to see an improvement to this, and the more that's on EVE Gate, the better!


Great job, and I really can't wait for the Immersion Project, it's very exciting to see what you do with that, also to see how it comes back in game for INcarna and other parts of FIS.


Best of Luck.

inexistin
Rubbish and Garbage Removal
Posted - 2011.09.05 20:04:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: CCP Ginger
Lol nice pic :).


Ty, I'm in the process of training up the skills, just for the added clarity. A thin red font doesn't seem to cut it as good as I wanted it to. Confused


Originally by: CCP Ginger
This is an ongoing area of.. "discussion" with the designers. I think there are positives to be had with the fixed width but I am of the opinion that wiki is content and therefore more content = good. It's likely that we will review this.


Definately on you with that one. If a compromise would appease more people, why not put the large side banners on pages with less content? Such as file pages (those pages you get to when you click an image, for example), or not-yet-made categories/articles/what ever. Those are just the few I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many more.

However, pages where I get to because I'm looking for information should focus on giving me that information. Glad to see we're on the same wavelength here. Very Happy

mkint
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:38:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: mkint on 06/09/2011 08:40:57
Glad to see the updates. A big pet peeve of mine with EVE has always been how absolutely utterly worthless the "search" box is in the help window. Seriously, it's been a steaming pile for as long as I've been playing, and I'd wager even longer. I've been a believer that connecting it to the evelopedia would be vital and I'd say this is a good sign.

There are some technical things in the game client that I'm curious about. Namely, the way I understand the show-info windows is that it queries what is essentially a sequestered web server/database for the relevant info (if I understand it, even using http.) What are the issues surrounding having it query the wiki directly, including adding a wiki tab? As users, we'd have instant access to all the information we need without the overhead of a full blown web browser. (The steadily degrading client-side performance of EVE means that I cannot reasonably both undock and have a web browser open at the same time any more, down from 3 clients and a web browser just 2-3 years ago.) Smoother integration into the client would demonstrate that CCP takes it's help system seriously. (The lack of good documentation in EVE is an old, unfunny joke.)

Also... I keep hearing that the ISD programs have been on a recruitment freeze. That they still accept applications, but don't actually do anything with them (definitely a depressing situation that makes it look like CCP doesn't care any more.) Was that just the STAR team, or all, and has the freeze been lifted? Would it really be worth our whiles to even fill out applications?

edit: also, spacebook looks like moose butthole, and always has. Please don't get the stink of it on evelopedia.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2011.09.09 06:13:00 - [59]
 

Problem is. I was all exited when the EVElopedia first came and I wrote a bunch of articles. Almost all of them was destroyed by CCP employees or volonteers. That kind of put me off. A few examples include: Someone made a bunch or "red" links on a page I've written then flagged it as poorly written because it contained alot of "red" links. I wrote description on alot of ship classes that was all moved to their own pages when ship classes was resorted and are now almost impossible to find (while the ship classes in the "ships" section again have no player-written descriptions).


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